"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Woody]

Whatever "in Christ" means... I think we need some over here.

Oh, sorry, did that sound judgmental to anyone? Well, it's okay, because I'm allowed to "judge righteous judgment". Because, you know, those words are in the Bible. Whatever they mean.

Yeah. I feel your pain. I know what you mean.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Whatever "in Christ" means... I think we need some over here.

Oh, sorry, did that sound judgmental to anyone? Well, it's okay, because I'm allowed to "judge righteous judgment". Because, you know, those words are in the Bible. Whatever they mean.

Yeah. I feel your pain. I know what you mean.

I'm glad someone does. :)

[teresaq]

Nobody blasphemed the Bible or the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

Oh please ... let's not be overly dramatic ... or I will send Olger after you.

Ok call him in. I think it's time.

[Robert]

And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. And he left all, rose up, and followed him. (Luke 5:27-28

Not the same.

Jesus came to Levi and ask him to follow....It doesn't say deny yourself here....

The RYR was very different....He comes up to Christ and asks, "What good thing must I do to gain life?" Think it out....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

"Those who win heaven [ ] will put forth their noblest efforts, and will labor with all long-suffering, that they may reap the fruit of toil." EG White Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library Vol. 1 (1945), page 74, paragraph 6

Look Norman, I like many EGW statements, but to think that just because she agrees with your particular brand on theology should cause you comfort, think again:

Quote:

“Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong….Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness….” [bible Echo and Signs of the Times, 02-01-1892]

“When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. “ [AY 63, 1860]

The above proves EGW changed her views overtime....Maybe you should make the NT your measuring stick of truth?

[Robert]

She was not terrifying her son with the wrath of God.

"try to do right always, and then no black mark will be set down against you"

This is fear bating....This is highhanded legalism....Be good or God is going to get you. That places fear in kids.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. And he left all, rose up, and followed him. (Luke 5:27-28

Not the same.

Jesus came to Levi and ask him to follow....It doesn't say deny yourself here....

The RYR was very different....He comes up to Christ and asks, "What good thing must I do to gain life?" Think it out....

You're saying these are different because it doesn't say the precise words "deny yourself"? That seems a rather myopic stance to take to me.

To both of them Christ said, in effect (please consider the meaning here, not just literal words) "Leave your possessions and follow me." Matthew was a rich man, earning a good income. He was unfulfilled with his riches. He longed for something more.

The RYR was a rich man as well. He also was unfulfilled with his riches. He longed for something more.

To both Jesus made the same call. One accepted the call, and one didn't.

[pnattmbtc]

When did I object to telling people about good works? ALL I ASKED was why we emphasize works so much if genuine faith will produce good works no matter what we say!

This is raising a good point.

Genuine faith produces good works. It always does. So if our wish is that others have good works, our goal should be to help them obtain genuine faith. Does emphasizing good works do this? Or is there something else that can be done that's more effective?

[teresaq]

and that was why i jumped in at some point, cause i was seeing:

Quote:

"You will meet with those who will say, 'You are too much excited over the matter. You are too much in earnest. You should not be reaching for the righteousness of Christ, and making so much of that. You should preach the law.' As a people we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa, that had neither dew nor rain. We must preach Christ in the law, and there will be sap and nourishment in the preaching that will be as food to the famishing flock of God. We must not trust in our own merits at all, but in the merits of Jesus of Nazareth."-Review and Herald, March 11,1890. {1941 AGD, COR 48.3}

and

Quote:

"Some of our brethren are not receiving the message of God upon this subject. They appear to be anxious that none of our ministers shall depart from their former manner of teaching the good old doctrines. We inquire, Is it not time that fresh light should come to the people of God, to awaken them to greater earnestness and zeal? The exceeding great and precious promises given us in the Holy Scriptures have been lost sight of to a great extent, just as the enemy of all righteousness designed that they should be. He has cast his own dark shadow between us and our God, that we may not see the true character of God."-Review and Herald, April 1, 1890. {1941 AGD, COR 48.5}

there will always be the two (3) classes in sda until the sunday law.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

There is no such thing as a lifeless faith. There is only faith that works.

I agree that there is no such thing as a lifeless faith. Which is what prompted my question: if faith will naturally result in good works, why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?

Demanding works as proof of faith seems to me like it does less good than is thought.

[SivartM]

I am truly sorry if it appeared I was condemning you, Sivart. I'm not. I do have a problem with the anti-works mentality which has cropped up in Adventism. It is one thing to point out that works cannot save a person. It is quite another to claim that works are actually harmful. Who would you rather have as a neighbor - an anarchist or a legalist?

[Robert]

To both of them Christ said, in effect (please consider the meaning here, not just literal words) "Leave your possessions and follow me." Matthew was a rich man, earning a good income. He was unfulfilled with his riches. He longed for something more.

[Steve Billiter]

Robert said:

Speculation....You are getting this from EGW the same woman that changed her mind on theological topics. You must go to the word of God instead of using her....It's really a form of laziness to default to her. I mean I did it at one time too....You think that EGW knows it all so you tend to skip studying your Bible and quote her instead....Lazy!

Ellen White was also human, just like Moses, David, Peter, John, and other prophets that needed to grow in grace themselves.

She was also Inspired by the Holy Spirit. You are on very dangerous ground by saying what you do.

Calling others "lazy" is not the spirit of God, it is another spirit.

[Robert]

Ellen White was also human, just like Moses, David, Peter, John, and other prophets that needed to grow in grace themselves.

[karl]

I have nothing against good works, it's just the over-emphasis people put on them, as if they have some sort of merit. I'd probably really prefer to live near the anarchist... just because he would be easier to talk to than the legalist.

But how do we know what and how many works someone is supposed to produce if they have real faith? If they are not "as good" as us, does that mean that they don't have faith? We don't know nearly enough to know whether or not someone is producing the works God wants them to. We should exhort each other to do good works, of course, but we should be inspecting our fruit first and foremost.

Actually, the emphasis in the bulk of Protestant Christianity today is against works.

Maybe I should have given you the option of living next door to a thief or a rapist, versus living next to someone who resists the urge to steal and rape in a legalistic fashion. Doing the right thing for the wrong reason still gets the right thing done.

You're going to look foolish exhorting people to good works if you know nothing about what they have been doing. You cannot live with your head in the sand and still be engaged. If you are not aware of your brother's fruits, I question whether he is really your brother.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is quite another to claim that works are actually harmful.

I haven't come across any of those posts. Could you cite any?

[Robert]

Maybe I should have given you the option of living next door to a thief or a rapist, versus living next to someone who resists the urge to steal and rape in a legalistic fashion. .

[Woody]

Quote:

If we are fruit inspectors with the intent of helping those weak in faith

All are weak in faith. We need to draw all people to Christ. We need to meet people's needs. But we don't need to inspect THEIR fruit. We do need to inspect OUR fruit. But the work of inspecting others fruit is the work of God.

The Holy Spirit will convict of sin. It is not our job to point out the sin of others.

[Robert]

Quote:

Doing the right thing for the wrong reason still gets the right thing done

BTW, this is the mind of a legalist....I mean you might not realize what you have said,...maybe you didn't think it out, but in heaven's eyes it doesn't get the job done. Only agape gets the job done.

After all it was Lucifer who came up with the concept of "self". Instead of serving others...instead of living for others...instead of living to make sure others prospered, he came up with the idea of self-love. Agape love he found restrictive. You must love self, he proclaimed. The greatest love of all is learning to love yourself.

[Robert]

The greatest love of all is learning to love yourself.

Whitney Huston came up with a song called "the greatest love of all". I remember her in the early years of MTV. Very good looking woman...very good singer, except she had been brought up with the idea that self-love was the key to success. Well, her life has had all sorts of problems ever since....I hope she finds something outside herself...outside her love of self...then she can regain true confidence in Christ.

I tell you folks, what we think of as wonderful works...what we call love is really self-love. Hollywood produces it...singers sing it and even the churches preach it. You must love self before you can love others....What they are teaching, and I don't think they see it, is what Lucifer invented in heaven and developed here on earth.

Now listen to Whitney's song....It's done nicely, but its message is 180 degrees out with God's agape love.

Click here and view video

Day star - lucifer

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I have nothing against good works, it's just the over-emphasis people put on them, as if they have some sort of merit. I'd probably really prefer to live near the anarchist... just because he would be easier to talk to than the legalist.

But how do we know what and how many works someone is supposed to produce if they have real faith? If they are not "as good" as us, does that mean that they don't have faith? We don't know nearly enough to know whether or not someone is producing the works God wants them to. We should exhort each other to do good works, of course, but we should be inspecting our fruit first and foremost.

Actually, the emphasis in the bulk of Protestant Christianity today is against works.

depends on how you think of that. the individuals i know are quite sincere in developing Christlike characters and loving their fellowman.

they dont go around preaching "the law, the law" and im not aware of them having discussions such as these but most i know are really trying to follow the Lord as they understand Him to be.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: karl

depends on how you think of that. the individuals i know are quite sincere in developing Christlike characters and loving their fellowman.

they dont go around preaching "the law, the law" and im not aware of them having discussions such as these but most i know are really trying to follow the Lord as they understand Him to be. [/quote']

AMEN

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Actually, the emphasis in the bulk of Protestant Christianity today is against works.

depends on how you think of that. the individuals i know are quite sincere in developing Christlike characters and loving their fellowman.

they dont go around preaching "the law, the law" and im not aware of them having discussions such as these but most i know are really trying to follow the Lord as they understand Him to be.

Praise God for the individuals in your life. But your being blessed by them does not change the fact that the Adventist church has been commissioned to bear a precious message to the world which starts like this: "Fear God and keep His commandments for the hour of His judgement is come." The three angels' messages are designed to draw Christians out of apostate Christianity and into a true understanding of God's will. (Come out of her, my people.)

As I mentioned, the majority of the protestant world is anti-works. They realized the shallowness of only being opposed to the fourth commandment, so they, like Robert, declared ALL the commandments to be a yoke of bondage which Christ freed them from.

Good works are not bad. That's why we call them good works. So, beware of theologians who call evil good and good evil.

[karl]

Quote:

It is quite another to claim that works are actually harmful.

I haven't come across any of those posts. Could you cite any?

See Robert's posts above.