Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Why am I concerned about this "in Christ" teaching? Because of what I saw it doing to me when I believed it and what I have seen in my friend's lives who believe it. It's part of a bigger teaching that will, in the end cause you to twist scripture or give it up, twist SOP or give it up, give up the Sabbath and the sanctuary teachings or come up with the strangest excuses for what you believe. This teaching can take the effects of law away from the conscience and where no law is(or effects of the law that points out of sin) there can be no mercy and/or it can lead to a presumptuous attitude that all is well when they are rebelling against the truth. I care for people too much to just ignore that. I hope that what I post can help someone understand what this teaching is about and where it will lead. The teaching mainly stems from the writings of Paul. It takes a verse here and there and leaves out the context to promote a form of spiritualism. It also appeals to those who once were legalistic in their lives, I know I was one. They get much of their teachings from the book of Romans. Here's how that happens, watch carefully and you'll see it. In Acts 15 Paul and others go to Jerusalem to find out what to do about the Jews who followed him just about everywhere teaching that you could believe in Christ but you need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. These two things are what was done away with at the cross. there was a big discussion and a decision was made. This is what Paul's letter are mainly dealing with; the law of circumcision and it's related laws. He is refuting the teachings of these false teachers. Romans starts out by revealing how sinful man is. I used to wonder why he did that. Then I learned that it is because he wanted to prove without a doubt that man is sinful. That is what we are like with out Christ. Therefore if man is like this, then what good would it do him to be circumcised? How would that make him righteous or justify him? He sets a tone by using a phrase "under the law" and what he means is this; if you are going to be circumcised, you are trying to be made righteous by works of the law of circumcision and that is futile and impossible. WE are made righteous by faith. Then he exemplifies Abraham. Then in Rom Ch 4 he concludes Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe,(not the world) though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: It is clear that this is referring to the law of circumcision. Then they take these kinds of verses (which refer to circumcision) and apply them to the Ten Commandments. Look at what Paul said in the following verses; Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Remember when Moses did not circumcise His sons? what did God do? He sent angels to kill him! But now there is no law and therefore no transgression. It is by faith and that is how Abraham was justified and declared righteous. Now if you take all that is said about circumcision and realized that Paul was saying, "this is not how we are justified" then the book of Romans and Gal and other make sense. But if you take what Paul has said about being justified by faith and NOT by circumcision or keeping that law and all others that pertain to it (which excludes the 10 Commandments - 1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.) and then you think he's saying you are justified by faith and you don't have to keep law (which to them means the 10 commandments).... what do you come up with? Confusion and a highly unbalanced understanding of how we are justified and saved, which opens the door to the teaching that everyone is forgiven and saved in Christ. I can go on, but it's getting late; but you pray and think this through and see what kind of misunderstandings are supported by not seeing what Paul is dealing with in Romans, Galatians and other books of the NT. Thanks for posting this Norman, I have copied it and put it in my e-sword notes, and will no doubt be quoting it to others. I have never seen it explained quite this plainly, and like John said, it makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 We've been using Psalms for our devotions and are currently on Ps 119. Yep. I believe whoever wrote it is the experience of who is converted and who is living/abiding "in Christ." Hi Gerry, It's really a beautiful Psalm and at times you can hear Christ's words while He was in Gethsemane and other times in His life. It inspires me to have that kind of devotion to God and all that pertains to Him. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2009 Hey, what has happened to you? I have noticed a distinct difference in your posts - for the better for sure!!! The spiritual tone is quite different from before your re-appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert No....I didn't....I have always maintained that we grow.... Yeah, a funny kind of growth. You claim growth but no obedience!!! You are hung up on that word....You can't claim obedience unless you are living Christ's life....Obeying the law perfectly is obedience.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Quote: ROBERT: "necessity" is just another way of saying jurisdiction.... Quote: JOHN: So what is your answer? Yes or no? 2 Cor 3:18 And all of us' date=' with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love'] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit. 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Is this the closest you can come to giving a "yes" or "no" answer to the question whether faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the Ten Commandments? Romans 7: 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law]we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Is this the closest you can come to giving a "yes" or "no" answer to the question whether faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the Ten Commandments? Perhaps he just doesn't want to commit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 ...but that [the cross] doesn't do anyone any good until each individual accepts it and stops fighting. This is the highest order of heresy that I've ever seen on CA.... If Christ had not taken the curse of the law (and your humanity was in Him) then you would have never been born....You would have died "in Adam"....You would have never been justified unto life [see Romans 5:18]. You would have died in the loins of Adam....You would have died in him the 2nd death. Tell babies, who never could exercise faith in God, that the cross didn't do them any good....Tell folks who never heard the name of Jesus, yet through their conscience believed in Him who they did not know, that they don't have heaven in the cross of Christ....These too will be in heaven.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Why am I concerned about this "in Christ" teaching? Because of what I saw it doing to me when I believed it and what I have seen in my friend's lives who believe it. I am concerned for those who reject this truth....They will be eternally lost! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Thanks for that very helpful post, Norman. What you say makes perfect sense biblically. I agree with you completely. The "in Christ" motif, if misapplied, leads to many serious mistakes in NT theology. See post #306419 on this thread. Jack Sequeira is a man of God....This church needs this truth....This church needs to escape the legalism and bondage that sincere, but misguided folks have preached for years.....This truth will cause the shaking...the legalists will leave and from that God's people will make up His remnant.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Norman Why am I concerned about this "in Christ" teaching? Because of what I saw it doing to me when I believed it and what I have seen in my friend's lives who believe it. I am concerned for those who reject this truth....They will be eternally lost! This from the one who cries for the removal of anyone who says somebody may be lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo ...but that [the cross] doesn't do anyone any good until each individual accepts it and stops fighting. This is the highest order of heresy that I've ever seen on CA.... Heresy, heresy, all is heresy. Right Robert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Is this the closest you can come to giving a "yes" or "no" answer to the question whether faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the Ten Commandments? Perhaps he just doesn't want to commit. Then again I am not so arrogant and self-righteous to say I am keeping the law. Christ kept the law...you fall short. So no, we better not been under the jurisdiction of the law or we've had it! Gal 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert This is the highest order of heresy that I've ever seen on CA.... Heresy' date=' heresy, all is heresy. Right Robert? [/quote'] Mostly...Especially with those who attack "the truth as it is in Christ" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert I am concerned for those who reject this truth....They will be eternally lost! This from the one who cries for the removal of anyone who says somebody may be lost. I'm sorry, maybe you need glasses....Mark said that Redwood was lost....What I am stating is that folks who persistently reject the truth as it is in Christ will be lost (future tense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Thanks for that very helpful post, Norman. What you say makes perfect sense biblically. I agree with you completely. The "in Christ" motif, if misapplied, leads to many serious mistakes in NT theology. See post #306419 on this thread. Jack Sequeira is a man of God....This church needs this truth....This church needs to escape the legalism and bondage that sincere, but misguided folks have preached for years.....This truth will cause the shaking...the legalists will leave and from that God's people will make up His remnant.... Exactly. Our prophet is clear on this very issue. And Jack echos it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Mark said that Redwood was lost....What I am stating is that folks who persistently reject the truth as it is in Christ will be lost (future tense). The word lost means the same thing in both cases. And Mark did not say Redwood was lost. He said that he would be if he didn't turn from those beliefs. (future tense). Looks like you're the one who needs glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Mark said that Redwood was lost....What I am stating is that folks who persistently reject the truth as it is in Christ will be lost (future tense). The word lost means the same thing in both cases. And Mark did not say Redwood was lost. He said that he would be if he didn't turn from those beliefs. (future tense). Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Mark said that Redwood was lost....What I am stating is that folks who persistently reject the truth as it is in Christ will be lost (future tense). The word lost means the same thing in both cases. And Mark did not say Redwood was lost. He said that he would be if he didn't turn from those beliefs. (future tense). Looks like you're the one who needs glasses. Post # 304126 "I know you are not saved." That's in the present tense. Please practice honesty. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 You are obviously not lost yet, because you are still alive here on planet earth. So there is hope for each and every one of us. So with that in mind, he was still speaking of the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Quote: Please practice honesty. Rob Yes. And those who don't ... "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." And that applies to all of ye believers in the Devil's counterfeit. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 You are obviously not lost yet, because you are still alive here on planet earth. So there is hope for each and every one of us. So with that in mind, he was still speaking of the future. No, Mark said "I know you are not saved"....So if Redwood died right now there's no hope for him.... Now, please stop justifying Mark's sin....Mark shouldn't not have said this..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Yes Rob. Exactly. The bigger problem here is that many support such behavior. They hum and ha and try to find ways to contort it into acceptable pieces. But it clearly is not acceptable. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 You are obviously not lost yet, because you are still alive here on planet earth. So there is hope for each and every one of us. So with that in mind, he was still speaking of the future. Try this Richard ... Richard ... you clearly "are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." Were you aware that you didn't know the Lord? Well I am telling you now that you don't know him. All that believe they are saved by the Law are lost because the Law condemns them to death. None are righteous and thus are condemned by the Law. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 All that believe they are saved by the Law are lost because the Law condemns them to death. They are in danger...grave danger, but ultimately God takes legalists where they are at....Legalists, because of being ignorant, will be in heaven.... To all: Let's all cool down because the flesh can get a hold on us and we end up saying things that we normally wouldnt Mark sinned....I've sinned...I've said things wrong....I've judged folks (probably told them they were lost), but none of us has the right to judge because only God knows the heart.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood All that believe they are saved by the Law are lost because the Law condemns them to death. They are in danger...grave danger, but ultimately God takes legalists where they are at....Legalists, because of being ignorant, will be in heaven.... To all: Let's all cool down because the flesh can get a hold on us and we end up saying things that we normally wouldnt Mark sinned....I've sinned...I've said things wrong....I've judged folks (probably told them they were lost), but none of us has the right to judge because only God knows the heart.... Rob Thank you Rob. Well stated. I would plead for the same thing. Anyone here want to come forward to make a commitment regarding this issue? What it would take is for all of us to stand up for truth and when someone does as Mark did ... no one should be supporting it. We do need to stand up to error. Most certainly we should forgive but we should also not condone error. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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