"In Christ" what does that mean?

[wayfinder]

John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ; 21 that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Steve:Why Don't you just show me where Sequeria teaches the real gospel?

I haven't claimed this.

Quote:

Confession of sin and repentance,that should result in us keeping the commandments.

He should be teaching something very similar to whats in Steps to Christ, thats what I do.

There is no corporate and individual justification, thats unbiblical.

You think because he gives the references for Bible texts he is correct? Why do you think he does not post the whole text and then explain it?

He tries to break down the gospel in all these confusing parts no way.Its all heresy.Him and Desmond Ford could almost be twins.

"Beyond Belief"

Steve, please put away the pejorative remarks, and just present well-reasoned arguments.

Quote:

"If the downside of the idea of corporate oneness is that we all fell in the one man, Adam, the glorious upside of the idea is that God likewise has redeemed all of us in the one man, Jesus Christ, who is the “second Adam” [see Romans 5:12-21; 1 Corinthians 15:19-23; 45-49]. God has legally justified all mankind in Christ just as surely as Satan has brought about the condemnation of all mankind in Adam" [see Romans 5:18]

Here is Universal Justification again. Not only that, but because the world inherited a sinful nature from Adam, he tries to stretch that into the whole world being justified by Christ. Where does the Bible say this?

In Romans 5:18 it says this. Over 100 years earlier W. W. Prescott recognized this very thing, during the time when Ellen White was most strongly endorsing him. Prescott actually used the word "justified." Waggoner and Jones, and Ellen White, taught the same principles, which I quoted (I didn't quote Jones, I guess. I can though, if desired. Jones spoke in terms of Christ's undoing that which Adam did for all humanity.)

Quote:

Sequeria:

The entire human race is corporately one “in Him” just as we are one “in Adam.” What Jesus did, we have done, because we are corporately one in Him. Thus His life and death, which fully met the positive demands of God’s holy law as well as its justice, are considered to be our life and death also.

This is nuts, we did what Jesus did? Sequeria is living in a fantasy world

This is the same thing Prescott said in 1896. Indeed, Ellen White endorsed the *very sermon* where Prescott taught this! It's a well known sermon entitled "The Word Became Flesh." Are you familiar with it? If not, I can present the sermon, as well as her comments regarding the sermon.

Also, again, please set aside the pejorative remarks.

[Twilight]

In response to the OP.

Abide in me and I in you.

The "in me" section is dealing with the experience of being crucified with Him and raised with Him.

It is staying in the gift of this experience.

This is received through two key components.

1. The blood (the appropriation of the merits of Christ).

2. The bread (the appropriation of the manna from heaven - the Word of God).

One gives us entrance, the other gives us spiritual strength.

When we have these two, we have one arm of the Gospel.

But we still need the other arm.

We need Christ in us.

This part (the blood and the bread), enable us to receive the other part.

Christ in you, the hope of Glory...

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

The Good News is better than You Think,

by Robert Wieland, page 73

“You Are Predestined to Be Saved! Really? The News gets better and better!”

Page 74, “God has predestined everyone to be saved, and the only way anyone can be lost is to veto the vote that God has already given in his favor; in other words they must undo the salvation that the Lord has already wrought out for him.”

Again Wieland has bypassed the conditions for salvation, acceptance, confession of sin, repentance, and lifelong sanctification. He is saying God forces us to be saved unless we reject it willfully. This is resurrected Calvinism.

Eternal life is too important not to study to show ourselves approved and not listen to other men.

Jer 17:5 Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Yes EGW said, "saved the world" but it is not the same thing as saying the have been justified, (forgiven) sanctified and glorified and now the world has eternal life and can only lose it by rejecting it. This is what is being taught by the people who promote that other false "in Christ" theory.

I've never heard of anyone believing or saying this. For certain ... no SDA has said this. Perhaps you are inserting your own bias or lack of understanding into their beliefs?

There seems to be a lot of people doing this lately.

You might want to ask Rob; maybe you're not aware of what you have taken hold of as truth.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Norman, I'm happy to respond to your post as a whole, if you prefer. The reason I respond to posts as I did is to leave no doubt that I'm accurately quoting the person I'm responding to. But I'm happy to dialog as you've requested.

Regarding the "in Christ" claim regarding what others teach, you're simply mistaken. They don't teach anything different than the EGW quotes I presented. I could quote tons of things to substantiate this, but really, the onus is on you to substantiate your claim that they're saying something different, since you're making the accusation. Those I know personally who teach the "in Christ" idea are familiar the quotes I've been presenting.

Regarding what you wrote in regards to Gal. 3:19 and so forth, first of all, I don't know why you went from the "in Christ" motif to this, but evidently you see a connection here. Here's what Waggoner wrote in regards to this section of Scripture, in response to Butler's arguments, which are similar to yours:

I'll await your comments.

You're taking Butler's side of this dispute. I would invite you to consider Waggoner's pamphlet, if you haven't already done so.

By the way, this pamphlet was presented at the 1888 General Conference session, and was part of Waggoner's presentations which Ellen White said made "every fiber of her heart say 'Amen!'"

[teresaq]

Not sure what that has to do with anything. I don't believe in legalism. I think it is dangerous. But I do believe in putting my faith in Jesus. And letting Him will and do of His good pleasure in our lives is the best method. Trying to earn our way to Heaven will not meet with success.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Yes EGW said, "saved the world" but it is not the same thing as saying the have been justified, (forgiven) sanctified and glorified and now the world has eternal life and can only lose it by rejecting it. This is what is being taught by the people who promote that other false "in Christ" theory.

I've never heard of anyone believing or saying this. For certain ... no SDA has said this. Perhaps you are inserting your own bias or lack of understanding into their beliefs?

There seems to be a lot of people doing this lately.

You might want to ask Rob; maybe you're not aware of what you have taken hold of as truth.

Norman

I've not heard of anyone who has Rob's ideas. It's certainly not fair to make him representative of the ideas of others. If you're going to disagree with someone who has published, you should quote them, not rely on some guy writing posts on a forum.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

You might want to ask Rob; maybe you're not aware of what you have taken hold of as truth.

Norman [/quote']

I've not heard of anyone who has Rob's ideas. It's certainly not fair to make him representative of the ideas of others. If you're going to disagree with someone who has published, you should quote them, not rely on some guy writing posts on a forum.

See the meaning of these verses in JS's writings and please post it. Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Norman

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for posting this although I can see holes in it and when I have time will clearly point them out. As for putting Gal 3:19 in my comments it was to show the difference in the purposes of the 10 Commandments and the "law", that was added because of transgression.

I really don't have time right now but I will say this about Gal 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." According to what you have posted, we would have to conclude that the 10 commandments are no longer needed because the "Seed" has come. I have read some of what EGW has said concerning what he says about Galatians and it is not all in favor of E. J. Waggoner.

It's not hard to understand when you take into account the purpose of Paul's battle and letter. The question was, How is a man justified and made righteous? Is it by faith or is it by circumcision and keeping the law of Moses. I am not so concerned about what EJW has written I am concerned about what the plain truth is in the Bible. I have mind and I use it. I try not to be a repeater of other men's thoughts. It has helped me quote a bit.

Again my concern is about those who say that the world has been saved "in Christ" (which I can accept as long as it doesn't mean eternal life) and that the world is justified sanctified and glorified and cannot lose their salvation unless they reject it. I am not making this up. In fact Steve Billiter posted this from JS

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Thanks for posting this although I can see holes in it and when I have time will clearly point them out. As for putting Gal 3:19 in my comments it was to show the difference in the purposes of the 10 Commandments and the "law", that was added because of transgression.

I really don't have time right now but I will say this about Gal 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." According to what you have posted, we would have to conclude that the 10 commandments are no longer needed because the "Seed" has come. I have read some of what EGW has said concerning what he says about Galatians and it is not all in favor of E. J. Waggoner.

It's not hard to understand when you take into account the purpose of Paul's battle and letter. The question was, How is a man justified and made righteous? Is it by faith or is it by circumcision and keeping the law of Moses. I am not so concerned about what EJW has written I am concerned about what the plain truth is in the Bible. I have mind and I use it. I try not to be a repeater of other men's thoughts. It has helped me quote a bit.

Again my concern is about those who say that the world has been saved "in Christ" (which I can accept as long as it doesn't mean eternal life) and that the world is justified sanctified and glorified and cannot lose their salvation unless they reject it. I am not making this up. In fact Steve Billiter posted this from JS

1.Regarding the Seed comment, Waggoner covers this in both "The Gospel in Galatians" and "The Glad Tidings." You're simply repeating Butler's arguments. Butler was on the wrong side of this. I hope you'll read through what Waggoner wrote with an open mind. I think if you do so, you'll find his arguments are "clear and convincing," to quote EGW.

2.Regarding EGW on this point (the law in Galatians) she sided with Waggoner. This actually ties into Waggoner's teaching on the Covenants, and she sided with Waggoner on this point as well.

However, her siding with Waggoner really shouldn't be the deciding point, in and of itself. (It's not anyway, as in my experience, those who choose to disagree with her always find ways of justifying why they're doing so). The deciding point is the validity and truth of the arguments themselves. As she pointed out, they are "clear and convincing."

3.Regarding the "in Christ" idea, what Ellen White wrote is that the love shining from the cross draws us to Christ, and unless we reject that drawing, we will be led to repentance, the law will be written in our hearts, and every thought will be brought captive to Christ. She also writes that God has made provision whereby we may keep all His commandments, and He will accomplish this for all those who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. The former I've already cited. The latter is from MB 76.

So the concept that a person must resist (or reject) in order to be lost is correct. Furthermore, this isn't something that was recently made up, but was a part of what Waggoner and Jones taught. For example, from Waggoner:

Quote:

"Justification of Life." "By the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."Â There is no exception here. As the condemnation came upon all, so the justification comes upon all. Christ has tasted death for every man. He has given himself for all. Nay, he has given himself to every man. The free gift has come upon all. The fact that it is a free gift is evidence that there is no exception. If it came upon only those who have some special qualification, then it would not be a free gift.

It is a fact, therefore, plainly stated in the Bible, that the gift of righteousness and life in Christ has come to every man on earth. There is not the slightest reason why every man that has ever lived should not be saved unto eternal life, except that they would not have it. So many spurn the gift offered so freely. (Waggoner on Romans)

I've already mentioned a couple of EGW quotes on this, but here are a couple more.

Quote:

God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul....

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. (SC 27)

Quote:

None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ.(DA 387)

So it is a true concept that everyone will be saved who does not resist/reject/refuse/interpose a perverse will/frustrate God's grace/spurn the gift so freely offered.

[karl]

So it is a true concept that everyone will be saved who does not resist/reject/refuse/interpose a perverse will/frustrate God's grace/spurn the gift so freely offered.

Don't forget to mention those who simply neglect such great salvation. God urges it upon them and they are too busy. Too tied up in their own thing. God might even send you or me to present the Gospel to them, but they're preoccupied.

All the wooing God is doing is His proactive grace at work trying to persuade unrepentant man to submit to Christ's transforming presence in his life. He is not "in Christ" until he lets Christ in. Then he is brought into the John 17 experience.

The theology of forensic reconciliation seems to perceive the object of the plan of salvation to be the death of Christ. It appears to be an appeasement theology.

The object of salvation is not to get God killed. It is to transform rebels into freewill loyal subjects.

This is a very tall order, and, due to the "freewill" part, can only be accomplished by persuasion. It is a process.

[Robert]

The LORD can/will part the Red Sea or the Jordan, but the believer still has to walk across.

What Christ did 2000 years ago He did in our humanity....The deed is done...it is complete. You can't add to that gift...your receiving it doesn't make it so....It simply makes it effective in your life. You go from "under law" to under grace.

[Robert]

This is nuts, we did what Jesus did? Sequeria is living in a fantasy world

No Sir, you are living in a fantasy world. You are under law and seeing that you teach the same heresy that the Judaizers of old taught you will receive your reward: "the curse of the law"

[Robert]

the conditions for salvation, acceptance, confession of sin, repentance, and lifelong sanctification.

Then what Christ did is unacceptable...it lacks. We must do something to be saved. We must add to His perfect work by confession and sanctification. This is legalism and self-righteousness...

[Robert]

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1] Grace saved us [the human race] because of what Christ did. In Him we have a glorified, sinless humanity "in the heavenly places"

2] We receive this truth (that "in Christ" we already stand perfect) through faith. Faith is not the Savior, rather it is acceptance of what Christ did 2000 years ago.

3] This leads to a changed life that grows in grace....

[Woody]

Quote:

You might want to ask Rob; maybe you're not aware of what you have taken hold of as truth.

Norman

Rob has consistantly stated we are glorified when Jesus comes. Not before.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I started by explaining what Jesus meant by Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. What Jesus taught us was that only those who eat His flesh and drink His blood are in Him. This means to come to Him by the leading of the Father and believe in Him.

Now I would like to look at one of the times Paul uses "in Him" (referring to Christ) and see what he has said concerning this.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He starts with a warning that is specifically pointing to those who were teaching that the new Christians needed to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul was opposed to this and knew that this would only bring the Gentiles under the law.

"Traditions of men" meant, teachings and laws that once had merit and were now obsolete because they only pointed to Christ. The were added to intensify sin. For example when someone sinned they had to walk to the sanctuary in the presence of all with an offering then confess their sin to the priest and then cut the throat of the lamb. This truly caused the repentant sinner pain and made him realize that breaking the commandments was sin and not the way to lie life. He was also thankful in that he was forgiven and not stoned to death as some other violators of the commandments were.

This is what Paul was saying in Galatians when he said if you are circumcised you are a debtor to the whole law. In other words you would be forfeiting the sacrifice of Christ and going back to animal sacrifices. Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Continuing on; Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Paul now tells the Colossians that everything they need for salvation is in Christ.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Circumcision was the main battle that Paul was dealing with but the underlying issue was, how is a man justified and made righteous? Is it by circumcision or by faith?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Not only are God's children complete in Christ, not needing to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses, but we have a changed life. Once we were dead in trespasses and sin but now we are alive unto God; brought back into the harmony that was lost in Eden.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The rite of circumcision was another ordinance in the old covenant that was a shadow of things to come. It foretold of the cutting off of Christ. Therefore it was no longer necessary to be circumcised. If someone did that they were according to Paul under the law. Every statement Paul made in the verse I posted apply to believers only. Nothing in there even hints of corporate humanity which the false "In Christ" proposers promote.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

These previous 2 verses are not referring to the 10 Commandments they are referring to the laws of Moses, otherwise we must cast out the Sabbath.

Work calls,

In Christ and His service

Norman

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The LORD can/will part the Red Sea or the Jordan, but the believer still has to walk across.

What Christ did 2000 years ago He did in our humanity....The deed is done...it is complete. You can't add to that gift...your receiving it doesn't make it so....It simply makes it effective in your life. You go from "under law" to under grace.

Of course what He did 2000 yrs ago was complete. We can't add to it. But what He is doing for us NOW is on-going!

"If anyone does not abide [present tense, not something done 2000 yrs ago] in me, he is thrown away like a branch & withers," Jn 15:6 ESV.

What He did 2000 yrs ago does no one any good until it is accepted, applied, and appropriated into the life.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

the conditions for salvation, acceptance, confession of sin, repentance, and lifelong sanctification.

Then what Christ did is unacceptable...it lacks. We must do something to be saved. We must add to His perfect work by confession and sanctification. This is legalism and self-righteousness...

What Christ did was complete in itself. A perfect gift. What it lacks is a willing recepient. To receive this gift

you are calling it legalism and self-righteousness. Jesus said, "the words that I spoke to you are spirit (breath) & life."

God supplies the air, but unless we breathe it, it does us no good. That is what Jesus meant to eat His flesh and drink His

blood. He will never force anyone to do it. That is the vital part we have to do. This is what's missing in your so-called

gospel. It leaves the believer malnourished or dead. And you call eating His flesh & drinking His blod legalism and self-righteousness!

[karl]

Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.

In fact, Christ and the apostles, rather than diminishing the law, magnify it. They RAISE the bar. Sell all that thou hast and follow me. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself. These commandments, and the fruits of the Spirit, are far in excess of keeping the law. This we should do and not leave the other undone. Our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. The right-doing of the law is still required, but now the right-thinking of the heart is also required.

[teresaq]

in reading some of these posts i find it sad that some have not worked out their issues with the legalistic, and it is alive and well,

and that others are putting the cart before the horse.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The LORD can/will part the Red Sea or the Jordan, but the believer still has to walk across.

What Christ did 2000 years ago He did in our humanity....The deed is done...it is complete. You can't add to that gift...your receiving it doesn't make it so....It simply makes it effective in your life. You go from "under law" to under grace.

The LORD parted the Red Sea & the Jordan. There was nothing the Israelites could add to what He had done. How much good would that

have done unless they walked across? They walked across by faith, and you are calling it legalism and self-righteousness? That's why

I can never ever subscribe to your theology. You say you believe but refuse to walk across into the Promised Land as it were. You are

content to stay where you are. Oh yeah, little lip service to a little stunted growth!

[karl]

There are two forms of legalism. One in which we do it all, and the other in which God does it all.

The truth is that God made the plan of salvation to accomplish our transformation from rebels to loyal freewill subjects of His kingdom. We cannot receive salvation without active participation and cooperation on our part. This is not a passive role. We are to actively seek the Lord. We are to actively open the door for Him to come in. The Spirit of God does not propose to do the willing, the confessing, the believing, the repenting or the submitting for us. Otherwise salvation would be a sham.

[Twilight]

I started by explaining what Jesus meant by Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. What Jesus taught us was that only those who eat His flesh and drink His blood are in Him. This means to come to Him by the leading of the Father and believe in Him.

Now I would like to look at one of the times Paul uses "in Him" (referring to Christ) and see what he has said concerning this.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

He starts with a warning that is specifically pointing to those who were teaching that the new Christians needed to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul was opposed to this and knew that this would only bring the Gentiles under the law.

"Traditions of men" meant, teachings and laws that once had merit and were now obsolete because they only pointed to Christ. The were added to intensify sin. For example when someone sinned they had to walk to the sanctuary in the presence of all with an offering then confess their sin to the priest and then cut the throat of the lamb. This truly caused the repentant sinner pain and made him realize that breaking the commandments was sin and not the way to lie life. He was also thankful in that he was forgiven and not stoned to death as some other violators of the commandments were.

This is what Paul was saying in Galatians when he said if you are circumcised you are a debtor to the whole law. In other words you would be forfeiting the sacrifice of Christ and going back to animal sacrifices. Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Continuing on; Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Paul now tells the Colossians that everything they need for salvation is in Christ.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Circumcision was the main battle that Paul was dealing with but the underlying issue was, how is a man justified and made righteous? Is it by circumcision or by faith?

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Not only are God's children complete in Christ, not needing to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses, but we have a changed life. Once we were dead in trespasses and sin but now we are alive unto God; brought back into the harmony that was lost in Eden.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The rite of circumcision was another ordinance in the old covenant that was a shadow of things to come. It foretold of the cutting off of Christ. Therefore it was no longer necessary to be circumcised. If someone did that they were according to Paul under the law. Every statement Paul made in the verse I posted apply to believers only. Nothing in there even hints of corporate humanity which the false "In Christ" proposers promote.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

These previous 2 verses are not referring to the 10 Commandments they are referring to the laws of Moses, otherwise we must cast out the Sabbath.

Work calls,

In Christ and His service

Norman

Have you considered this Norman:

Blood = Merits of Christ.

Bread = Word of God.

Circumcision = Cutting away of the flesh in the individuals experience from the heart and spirit.

God bless,

Mark :-)