The Holy Spirit, dwelling within...

[Twilight]

When we consider the following verse, in a literal sense, Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit being "with" the disciples.

But in a "future" experience that the Holy Spirit would be "in them". Pointing to pentecost.

Now it has been presented by some on this board, to accept the simple statement as literal, is "pantheistic" and "mystical".

So I welcome all points of view on this.

But also ask, that those that do not think it is "literal", to explain why they think it is "figurative".

And what that would mean "figuratively".

From the bible or SOP of course:

Here is the verse in question:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Mark :-)

PS.

Using terms like "pantheistic" and "mystical" in an attempt to "brand" or "diminish" another point of view, is not a logical argument for a position, unless you have a solid biblical reason for that view...

[teresaq]

When we consider the following verse, in a literal sense, Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit being "with" the disciples.

But in a "future" experience that the Holy Spirit would be "in them". Pointing to pentecost.

Now it has been presented by some on this board, to accept the simple statement as literal, is "pantheistic" and "mystical".

So I welcome all points of view on this.

But also ask, that those that do not think it is "literal", to explain why they think it is "figurative".

And what that would mean "figuratively".

From the bible or SOP of course:

Here is the verse in question:

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

im thinking we have to take the whole bible into consideration or are you demanding only that text be considered? :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, as I was reading through this thread, it appeared you were asked 5 or 6 times what you think it means to say the Holy Spirit dwells in you, without answering. All I know is you appear to think this is literal, but I have no idea what you think this means.

Would you please explain what you think the phrase "the Holy Spirit dwells in me" means using other words? -- specifically the "dwells in me" part; you can use the words "Holy Spirit"

I am actually really surprised this is even a question?

I will start another thread on it at some point in the near future, as it is off topic to this one. :-)

Mark

so can you answer it now? pretty, pretty, please? :)

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, what do you think this (i.e. "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means? This is what you were being asked on the other thread. It appears you think this is literal, but what do you think it means that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within you, using other words please (except for "Holy Spirit").

[Twilight]

Mark, what do you think this (i.e. "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means? This is what you were being asked on the other thread. It appears you think this is literal, but what do you think it means that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within you, using other words please (except for "Holy Spirit").

What is the first rule of biblical interpretation?

1. It is literal unless there is a clear indication it is figurative.

So on that basis, we have a clear statement here, from Jesus Himself.

That the Holy Spirit was "with" the disciples, but would be "in" the disciples.

So literally in, means "in".

As in, the Holy Spirit dwells there.

Now if it is figurative, then the first part is also figurative.

But let us not jump the gun here.

There is absolutely no rational reason here to believe that this is not "literal".

The text itself, or the context, does not allow that.

---------------

Now if we have issue with how the Holy Spirit dwelling within, we have a major problem experientally.

Why?

Because this is the new covenant promise.

Scripture is littered with references that support this simple literal view.

The text is self evident.

Now if the "opposer" want to prove it is not "literal", they need to provide a basis for that view, from the context itself.

We should be very careful not to attempt to diminish this text, it is probably one of the most Holy of all promises in Scripture...

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, what do you think this (i.e. "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means? This is what you were being asked on the other thread. It appears you think this is literal, but what do you think it means that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within you, using other words please (except for "Holy Spirit").

Now if the "opposer" want to prove it is not "literal", they need to provide a basis for that view, from the context itself.

what would meet with your approval?

will "proof" just be denied, or evaded as it was done on the other thread?

will there be personal attacks for those who disagree with you, veiled or direct?

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, I still have no idea what you think "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means. I'm getting the impression that you yourself have no idea, which is why you can't explain what it means. You simply repeated the phrase. I specifically requested you explain the phrase in some other words, but you weren't able to do so, which indicates you don't know what the phrase means.

Quote:

So literally in, means "in".

As in, the Holy Spirit dwells there.

This sounds like the argument "Why?" "Because." "Because why?" "Because because."

Where is "there"? "In" is "in" what? How does the Holy Spirit dwell there? Physically?

I see you are affirming that the phrase is literal, but don't say what that means. What would a non-literal interpretation be? Perhaps you can say what that means, and how that would be different from what you believe, and I could get some idea of what you believe from that.

[pnattmbtc]

Teresa, would you please repeat what you think the phrase "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means? (or copy and paste it from the other thread)

[Woody]

Mark, I still have no idea what you think "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means. I'm getting the impression that you yourself have no idea, which is why you can't explain what it means. You simply repeated the phrase. I specifically requested you explain the phrase in some other words, but you weren't able to do so, which indicates you don't know what the phrase means.

Quote:

So literally in, means "in".

As in, the Holy Spirit dwells there.

This sounds like the argument "Why?" "Because." "Because why?" "Because because."

Where is "there"? "In" is "in" what? How does the Holy Spirit dwell there? Physically?

I see you are affirming that the phrase is literal, but don't say what that means. What would a non-literal interpretation be? Perhaps you can say what that means, and how that would be different from what you believe, and I could get some idea of what you believe from that.

Perhaps he doesn't know what the meaning of 'is' is ?

[teresaq]

Teresa, would you please repeat what you think the phrase "the Holy Spirit dwells within me" means? (or copy and paste it from the other thread)

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, teresa, this is similar to me. That is, I've asked for clarification from Mark, who seems to be defending a literal meaning, without saying what that actually means. I haven's shared what I think the expression means either.

[Twilight]

The scripture is plain and literal.

The Holy Spirit dwells within the individual.

Literally...

Why would I need to expand on that any more? :-)

-----------------

Now of course, we can notice that the following posters have not seen fit to declare their positions:

Teresa

Redwood

Pnat

Not only have they not seen fit, they have not even engaged at this point, but asked me to clarify, (or in the case of Redwood - just mocked), my position, (note that Teresa has also tried to insinuate a number of times that this is "Holy Flesh", with no supporting reason)?

So I challenge you now, to show why and how you think this is not literal.

Why you would think this is not literal?

And please explain how Jesus could make it any more clearer that it is literal?

Of course Teresa wants to take this discussion away from this text and use another text to interpret it, but this is extremely poor theology. Until this text is dealt with in context, we cannot really "drift" off to "proof text" an argument.

------------------

My concern here is that we might have a tremendous amount of ignorance on this subject which is foundational to the Christian walk...

Mark :-)

[Steve Billiter]

The scripture is plain and literal.

The Holy Spirit dwells within the individual.

Literally...

Why would I need to expand on that any more? :-)

-----------------

Now of course, we can notice that the following posters have not seen fit to declare their positions:

Teresa

Redwood

Pnat

Not only have they not seen fit, they have not even engaged at this point, but asked me to clarify, (or in the case of Redwood - just mocked), my position, (note that Teresa has also tried to insinuate a number of times that this is "Holy Flesh", with no supporting reason)?

So I challenge you now, to show why and how you think this is not literal.

Why you would think this is not literal?

And please explain how Jesus could make it any more clearer that it is literal?

Of course Teresa wants to take this discussion away from this text and use another text to interpret it, but this is extremely poor theology. Until this text is dealt with in context, we cannot really "drift" off to "proof text" an argument.

------------------

My concern here is that we might have a tremendous amount of ignorance on this subject which is foundational to the Christian walk...

Mark :-)

Hi mark, thanks for stating the truth about the Holy Spirit. Some deny he is God or a Person even.

There is ignorance, and there is ignorance born of a rejection of truth!

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to me: because you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.

We know some of our pioneers had strange beliefs on the Holy Spirit, and the deity of Christ. We know the enemy attacked very hard the remnant church in various ways.

2Th 2:10 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This actually details the unpardonable sin. Though some will say what anyone believes about the Holy Spirit is not a salvation issue;well, one false step can lead to another and another unto the downward march to perdition.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

We live in perilous times just before Jesus comes. There is no reason for anyone not to know truth. Why?

Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So an earnest seeking after God will reveal the truth He gives us!

Isa 55:6 Seek you the LORD while he may be found, call you upon him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I'm still learning a lesson concerning striving with some who simply refuse to believe truth.This lesson does not always come easy.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Tit 3:10 A man that is divisive after the first and second admonition reject;

Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is perverted, and sins, being condemned of himself.

[Guest]

Hi mark, thanks for stating the truth about the Holy Spirit. Some deny he is God or a Person even.

There is ignorance, and there is ignorance born of a rejection of truth!

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you, that you shall be no priest to me: because you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.

We know some of our pioneers had strange beliefs on the Holy Spirit, and the deity of Christ. We know the enemy attacked very hard the remnant church in various ways.

2Th 2:10 And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be condemned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This actually details the unpardonable sin. Though some will say what anyone believes about the Holy Spirit is not a salvation issue;well, one false step can lead to another and another unto the downward march to perdition.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

We live in perilous times just before Jesus comes. There is no reason for anyone not to know truth. Why?

Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So an earnest seeking after God will reveal the truth He gives us!

Isa 55:6 Seek you the LORD while he may be found, call you upon him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I'm still learning a lesson concerning striving with some who simply refuse to believe truth.This lesson does not always come easy.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Tit 3:10 A man that is divisive after the first and second admonition reject;

Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is perverted, and sins, being condemned of himself.

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

The scripture is plain and literal.

The Holy Spirit dwells within the individual.

Literally...

Why would I need to expand on that any more? :-)

-----------------

Now of course, we can notice that the following posters have not seen fit to declare their positions:

Teresa

Redwood

Pnat

Not only have they not seen fit, they have not even engaged at this point, but asked me to clarify, (or in the case of Redwood - just mocked), my position, (note that Teresa has also tried to insinuate a number of times that this is "Holy Flesh", with no supporting reason)?

So I challenge you now, to show why and how you think this is not literal.

Why you would think this is not literal?

And please explain how Jesus could make it any more clearer that it is literal?

Of course Teresa wants to take this discussion away from this text and use another text to interpret it, but this is extremely poor theology. Until this text is dealt with in context, we cannot really "drift" off to "proof text" an argument.

------------------

My concern here is that we might have a tremendous amount of ignorance on this subject which is foundational to the Christian walk...

Mark :-)

Mark, you've been asked many to explain what you believe, but have as yet refused to do so. You say it's literal, but refuse to say what it means. This is not communicative. I still have no idea what you think this phrase means.

I would be inclined to explain what I understand the phrase to mean if you answered my question. After all, I asked first!

For your convenience, I'll repeat the question. What does it mean to say that "The Holy Spirit dwells within me."? Please explain this using other words (i.e., other than "The Holy Spirit", which obviously needs to be repeated).

[Guest]

It means it is literal as opposed to figurative.

[pnattmbtc]

Do you have any idea what it means? If so, please share your thought. Simply saying it's literal as opposed to figurative isn't communicating anything useful in terms of what the phrase means.

[teresaq]

Of course Teresa wants to take this discussion away from this text and use another text to interpret it, but this is extremely poor theology.

i cant agree with this conclusion.

we have been counseled against taking a single verse for our "dogma" disregarding other verses that would explain and enlighten us.

there is no doubt the sda church has arrived at the exact same place the jewish church was in at Christs first arrival.

well, now i believe i will follow Christs example.... and i thank Him for answering my prayer of glorifying Himself over all.

[John317]

Jesus said that demons "enter" people's bodies and "dwell" in them. Jesus also said that evil spirits "go out of a man." Luke 11: 24, 26. This is literal. We do not know why they do it, but we know that they do it. That is what it means to be demon-possessed. Notice that Acts 19: 16 says that the evil spirit was "in" the man. See also Mark 1: 23-26; Matt. 8: 28-33.

If people don't want to believe that the Bible is speaking literally when it says that the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, that is their right to believe it means whatever they choose to believe. But there is no reason not to believe that the Bible means exactly what it says, that the Holy Spirit "dwells with you and will be in you." John 14: 17. Through their personal representative, the Holy Spirit, both the Father and Christ make their home with those who love Christ and keep His word. John 14: 23.

[pnattmbtc]

But there is no reason not to believe that the Bible means exactly what it says, that the Holy Spirit "dwells with you and will be in you."

Which means what?

[pnattmbtc]

To set the record straight, I have not said either that I believe the phrase is literal or not. I've simply been asking what the phrase means (that the "Holy Spirit dwells in me.") which, up to now, no one has answered. All I've seen are a lot of assertions that it's literal, which isn't what I've been asking.

What good does it do to say we believe a certain statement is literal if we can't explain what it means?

[John317]

Do you have trouble understanding what it means to say that demons/ evil spirits dwell in people's bodies?

What does it mean when Jesus said the spirits go into a man and come out of him?

Do you see this as literal? And what is the difference between speaking of it as "literal" as opposed to speaking of it metaphorically or figuratively?

[teresaq]

Jesus said that demons "enter" people's bodies and "dwell" in them. Jesus also said that evil spirits "go out of a man." Luke 11: 24, 26. This is literal.

[John317]

If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit or evil spirits do not literally dwell within people and that they only do so in a figurative sense, that is fine. Let every man/woman be persuaded in his/her mind.

[pnattmbtc]

Do you have trouble understanding what it means to say that demons/ evil spirits dwell in people's bodies?

What does it mean when Jesus said the spirits go into a man and come out of him?

Do you see this as literal? And what is the difference between speaking of it as "literal" as opposed to speaking of it metaphorically or figuratively?

Let's stick to one thing at a time, unless it's your point that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the same as being demon-possessed.

Here's my question. When you say that phrase, "The Holy Spirit dwells is me" is literal, what does that mean? In other words, please say this phrase in some other way, so it can be understood what you think this phrase means.