Robert Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Is anyone here of the opinion that God is opposed to men doing what is right? God is not opposed to men doing genuine rightness, but God is opposed to place us under law because the law requires one thing: Agape - a love that has no self-love in it....Where you have self you have sin and under law means goodbye to life forever.... "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439] "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Is anyone here of the opinion that God is opposed to men doing what is right? I think He is opposed to men doing what is wrong - opposed to them being transgressors of His will. The teaching that men who strive to comply with God's will have fallen from grace is a "fatal delusion." I want to stay away from stuff that is in that category. I don't see anything fatal about most delusions, including the delusion that mankind is innocent until he sins. Mankind is born fallen, but people can believe whatever they want to believe concerning this and still be saved. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Originally Posted By: karl Is anyone here of the opinion that God is opposed to men doing what is right? I think He is opposed to men doing what is wrong - opposed to them being transgressors of His will. The teaching that men who strive to comply with God's will have fallen from grace is a "fatal delusion." I want to stay away from stuff that is in that category. I don't see anything fatal about most delusions, including the delusion that mankind is innocent until he sins. Mankind is born fallen, but people can believe whatever they want to believe concerning this and still be saved. "The doctrine which teaches freedom, through grace, to break the law is a fatal delusion. Every transgressor of God's law is a sinner, and none can be sanctified while living in known sin." "A fatal delusion seizes those who have had great light and precious opportunities, but who have not walked in the light nor improved the opportunities which God has given them. Darkness comes upon them; and they fail to make Christ their strength, and fall an easy prey to the snares of the deceiver. A mere assent to the truth will never save a soul from death. We must be sanctified through the truth; every defect of character must be overcome, or it will overcome us and become a controlling power for evil." ""Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure." Any hope aside and separate from purity and righteousness is a snare of Satan, sophistry, and fatal delusion. Jesus came to our world, and graciously stands inviting us to come unto Him and learn of Him, believe in Him; and as we come, He grafts us into His life and into His character. Our drawing nigh to Christ is faith, and the grafting process is adoption; and by this mutual act we become sons of God and joint heirs with Christ, partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Oh. I thought you were talking about man's nature. It is true that a tree is known by its fruit. But a tree produces a certain fruit because it is a certain kind of tree, not in order to become that kind of tree. Real acts of love are performed only by those who truly love. God is not satisfied if we fake it. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 1, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2010 All I ask is show from the Bible that what the Apostle James & EGW are saying are erroneous. How else can anyone know that one's profession is genuine or counterfeit except by its fruit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 1, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2010 Originally Posted By: karl Is anyone here of the opinion that God is opposed to men doing what is right? God is not opposed to men doing genuine rightness, but God is opposed to place us under law because the law requires one thing: Agape - a love that has no self-love in it....Where you have self you have sin and under law means goodbye to life forever.... Is the Apostle James putting believers under slavery because he says, "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS." Ja 1:22 NIV Is Jesus putting His followers back under slavery all over again when He said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments?" How do you show your love to the ones you love? Is it by doing the things hurt them? Why are you attributing love's response to love as the basis for the relationship? How can anyone claim to have faith in God and love God while serving idols and harming their fellowmen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 1, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 1, 2010 Conditional Forgiveness Jesus taught a principle in the parable of the two debtors (Matt 18:23-35)... This teaches, in my view, the conditional nature of forgiveness, and shows how past forgiveness can be nullified by sin. Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated. (Note. Forgiveness of sin is not the same thing, I think, as the "blotting out" of sin.) How quickly we divert ourselves from the opening premise of this topic... I agree with CoAspen that this is a total misapplication of the point Jesus was trying to make which is that we are to forgive as we are forgiven. "Freely you have received, freely give." The secondary point of God's harsh opinion (Judgment) is to reinforce that God is unequivocally serious when He insists that we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. I don't think Jesus would be contradicting what he spoke to the people through the prophet Jeremiah, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” (Jer. 31:34) When God forgives, he doesn't go back on his word. Do we think He is a liar?!?! Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 1, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2010 Quote: When God forgives, he doesn't go back on his word. Do we think He is a liar?!?! Questions elicited by your statement: 1. Is forgiveness therefore unconditional? 2. That when a believer (who has therefore been forgiven of all past sins) decides to turn his back on God that he is only accountable for the sins he commits after he turns his back on God? If so, would you kindly provide Scriptural or SOP support? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Originally Posted By: Stewart (SDA) Conditional Forgiveness Jesus taught a principle in the parable of the two debtors (Matt 18:23-35)... This teaches, in my view, the conditional nature of forgiveness, and shows how past forgiveness can be nullified by sin. Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated. (Note. Forgiveness of sin is not the same thing, I think, as the "blotting out" of sin.) How quickly we divert ourselves from the opening premise of this topic... I agree with CoAspen that this is a total misapplication of the point Jesus was trying to make which is that we are to forgive as we are forgiven. "Freely you have received, freely give." The secondary point of God's harsh opinion (Judgment) is to reinforce that God is unequivocally serious when He insists that we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. I don't think Jesus would be contradicting what he spoke to the people through the prophet Jeremiah, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” (Jer. 31:34) When God forgives, he doesn't go back on his word. Do we think He is a liar?!?! yes, you are right and i was caught up in the delusion even tho i do know the point Jesus was making! Jesus is asking us to forgive as He forgives and i dont know how this got twisted into, whatever it is. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 wow!! ok, now i am understanding the "works" and "legalism" charges!! well i wont be participating in any more of these discussions that warp the lessons Christ would teach us!! i would suggest that others let these kinds of "discussions" die of starvation. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Is the Apostle James putting believers under slavery because he says, "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. DO WHAT IT SAYS." Ja 1:22 NIV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 What commands? Give me the context! Here, I'll help you: John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you [NIV says, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.] In other words because of our position "in Christ" (you in Christ) we already stand perfect. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing . 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered ; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned . 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will , and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified , that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full . 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2010 By the clothing I am wearing. Perhaps you've seen this anecdote from the SS quarterly? A woman, driving her vehicle, was pulled over by a few squad cars, and, when the police came out, they had their guns drawn. The woman was shocked. What had she done? "You were weaving in and out of traffic," one officer said, "making obscene gestures to other drivers and cursing them." "For that," she replied, "you pull out your guns?" "Well," the officer said, "we saw the bumper sticker, which said you were a Christian, and we just assumed the car had been stolen." 2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I love the point here Rob ... that he prunes only those that bear fruit. It is done to help them to bear MORE fruit. And the process goes on and on. It's not a one time shot or gardeners would be out of business. If we are NOT having trials in our lives then ... we need to think twice. For it is during the trials that we grow. I would also point out that even those trees that don't bear fruit for years ... Jesus still comes and plants a little more fertilizer in hopes that some fruit will develop. He is patient and longsuffering. He doesn't just say ... Ahhh ... "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." No. He looks at you lovingly and tenderly cultivates until there IS a harvest to be had. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Iff'n a person don't accept that gift it will go to someone else I reckon. That's the way Grandpa said things goes. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Robert What commands? Give me the context! Here, I'll help you: John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you [NIV says, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.] In other words because of our position "in Christ" (you in Christ) we already stand perfect. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing . 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered ; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned . 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will , and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified , that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full . 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. And you're saying that the above has nothing to do with the 10 commandments? What do you think the 10 c are, commandments of hate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 2, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 2, 2010 There is a world of difference between refraining from killing someone and loving your enemy. There is a world of difference between telling no falsehood about someone and saying kind and comforting words to those in distress. There is a world of difference between not stealing a person's stuff and sharing all you have with the poor. There is a world of difference between honoring and respecting your parents and taking care of the widows (someone elses parent) and orphans. There is a world of difference between not having sex with another's spouse and truly being at one with your own spouse. There is a world of difference between not coveting your neighbor's stuff and greedily coveting and hoarding your own stuff (gaining the whole world...)at the expense of your own soul. Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 yes, and that may be roberts basic point. we can think we are keeping the letter of the law, or we can study Christ so as to learn to live the spirit of the law. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2010 I love the point here Rob ... that he prunes only those that bear fruit. It is done to help them to bear MORE fruit. And the process goes on and on. It's not a one time shot or gardeners would be out of business. If we are NOT having trials in our lives then ... we need to think twice. For it is during the trials that we grow. And what does the owner do with the fruitless tree? And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit and calling it "legalism?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2010 There is a world of difference between refraining from killing someone and loving your enemy. There is a world of difference between telling no falsehood about someone and saying kind and comforting words to those in distress. There is a world of difference between not stealing a person's stuff and sharing all you have with the poor. There is a world of difference between honoring and respecting your parents and taking care of the widows (someone elses parent) and orphans. There is a world of difference between not having sex with another's spouse and truly being at one with your own spouse. There is a world of difference between not coveting your neighbor's stuff and greedily coveting and hoarding your own stuff (gaining the whole world...)at the expense of your own soul. Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another. And you're saying that the above has nothing to do with the 10 commandments? What do you think the 10 c are, commandments of hate? Does that sound like I don't know the difference? The whole sermon on the mount is about the spirit of the law and not the mere letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Billiter Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 There is a world of difference between refraining from killing someone and loving your enemy. There is a world of difference between telling no falsehood about someone and saying kind and comforting words to those in distress. There is a world of difference between not stealing a person's stuff and sharing all you have with the poor. There is a world of difference between honoring and respecting your parents and taking care of the widows (someone elses parent) and orphans. There is a world of difference between not having sex with another's spouse and truly being at one with your own spouse. There is a world of difference between not coveting your neighbor's stuff and greedily coveting and hoarding your own stuff (gaining the whole world...)at the expense of your own soul. Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another. I wouldn't say there is a world of difference, I would prefer to say as we behold Jesus and are turned into His image, we get deeper revelations of His love, in which is the ten commandments that form the foundation of this law of love. We should not only refrain from harming our neighbor, but perform works of love and faith. Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Jesus came to deliver us from sin, to break those chains and give us new heart, one that loves Him, obeys Him, including His commandments. James 1:25 But whoever looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues in it, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Here James provides deeper Revelations into God's law, which is not just refraining from sin,but doing faith-based works of love. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. So here we have it, if we see our neighbor hungry, or naked without clothes and pass him by with upturned nose, then we have sinned. Jesus provides details of these good works: Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Mat 25:36 Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me. Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink? Mat 25:38 When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you? Mat 25:39 Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came unto you? Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and you gave me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink: Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not. Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you? Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Since you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me. Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. the Lord also made clear how the commandments fit into the grand scheme of things. Mat 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. So if we truly love God and our neighbor, we will not only refrain from killing him, and stealing from, or lying to, we will not shut up our heart or goods from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Redwood I love the point here Rob ... that he prunes only those that bear fruit. It is done to help them to bear MORE fruit. And the process goes on and on. It's not a one time shot or gardeners would be out of business. If we are NOT having trials in our lives then ... we need to think twice. For it is during the trials that we grow. And what does the owner do with the fruitless tree? And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit and calling it "legalism?" Time for fruit inspection. Everyone please display your good works so that we may decide which trees to burn. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Redwood I love the point here Rob ... that he prunes only those that bear fruit. It is done to help them to bear MORE fruit. And the process goes on and on. It's not a one time shot or gardeners would be out of business. If we are NOT having trials in our lives then ... we need to think twice. For it is during the trials that we grow. And what does the owner do with the fruitless tree? And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit and calling it "legalism?" I thought I was saying something totally innocent. Yet it seems that some always want to look for bad and find controversy. Why can't we look for agreement instead of disagreements. I really have to scratch my head over this. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore There is a world of difference between refraining from killing someone and loving your enemy. There is a world of difference between telling no falsehood about someone and saying kind and comforting words to those in distress. There is a world of difference between not stealing a person's stuff and sharing all you have with the poor. There is a world of difference between honoring and respecting your parents and taking care of the widows (someone elses parent) and orphans. There is a world of difference between not having sex with another's spouse and truly being at one with your own spouse. There is a world of difference between not coveting your neighbor's stuff and greedily coveting and hoarding your own stuff (gaining the whole world...)at the expense of your own soul. Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another. I wouldn't say there is a world of difference, I would prefer to say as we behold Jesus and are turned into His image, we get deeper revelations of His love, in which is the ten commandments that form the foundation of this law of love. We should not only refrain from harming our neighbor, but perform works of love and faith. Yes, I think that, as a church, we ought to be doing what Tom and Steve are talking about above, rather than quibbling about whether the law is binding. We ought to be MAGNIFYING the law as Christ and the apostles did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 2, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2010 Quote: Yes, I think that, as a church, we ought to be doing what Tom and Steve are talking about above, rather than quibbling about whether the law is binding. We ought to be MAGNIFYING the law as Christ and the apostles did. The trouble is there are some who label magnifying the law and applying it to the life as LEGALISM! even when you are doing it out of a love response to the God who loves you so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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