Conditional Forgiveness

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does the owner do with the fruitless tree? And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit and calling it "legalism?"

I thought I was saying something totally innocent. Yet it seems that some always want to look for bad and find controversy. Why can't we look for agreement instead of disagreements. I really have to scratch my head over this.

I suggest you follow the thread farther up and not just the immediate post before it.

[Woody]

Well ... Gerry. If there are those who are doing that ... I think it best to just ignore such people.

[olger]

Please don't feed the drama queens and,

thanks

g

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another.

I agree with all the examples, which I think were elegantly stated, but in regards to the conclusion, in the examples, the law was not being kept at all, but was being broken. Jesus Christ was explaining what it means to keep the law. He magnified the law, by demonstrating its great breadth. His life showed what obedience to the law looks like, and, as you eloquently pointed out, it includes much more than a simple outward performance of certain acts. The law of the Lord is goes to the motives of the heart.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what does the owner do with the fruitless tree? And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit and calling it "legalism?"

Time for fruit inspection. Everyone please display your good works so that we may decide which trees to burn.

Would you kindly give reference to any Bible admonition that we are never to be fruit inspectors? Or should we just swallow Madoff's line and invest hard earned cash in his scheme?

[SivartM]

Judge not, that you be not judged. Jesus is our fruit inspector... and the point is not how much we bear in relation to others, but how spiritually mature we are.

And I have no idea who this Madoff is, and I'm certainly not planning to give him any money (if only because I have none to give).

[Gerr]

Judge not, that you be not judged. Jesus is our fruit inspector... and the point is not how much we bear in relation to others, but how spiritually mature we are.

And I have no idea who this Madoff is, and I'm certainly not planning to give him any money (if only because I have none to give).

Jesus ALSO said, "By their fruits YOU shall know them." AND, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

[SivartM]

"By their fruits you shall know them" is talking about false prophets. What are the fruits of their message?

So judging fruit is not about making fallible human judgments about how Christian or un-Christian other people are. If I'm going to judge everyone's Christian experience by my limited understanding (which is where the "judge with right judgment" comes in), then I shall judge that all of you are unconverted, because there is disunity among you, and Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one.

Using those verses to justify judging the salvation of someone you've never met is quite a stretch.

[Robert]

And you're saying that the above has nothing to do with the 10 commandments? What do you think the 10 c are, commandments of hate?

I'm going with the context, Gerry....You are adding and hence placing the believer back under law.

Here's the problem. The Jews, God's people...the remnant of that time, thought that they were better than the Gentiles. Even the Apostle Peter fell into this after he was mature (see Gal chapter 2). Speaking of spiritual pride Paul says, "If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

Again, legalism builds one's pride. Look at Paul before he became a Christian: "As to the righteousness under the law, blameless"!

Here's the thing, legalism ALWAYS brings division. It's even here on CA. The two systems, works and grace, will never have unity. The legalists will always cause division, yet they will point the finger at those under grace as those bringing in trouble. I've been accused of it many times, yet I'm not the one bringing in heresy.

Yes, I'll stand up to legalists...I hate to, but it has to be exposed or they will draw of disciples to themselves. They will, in Christ's words, make such a convert twice the son of hell.

Well, Christ wants the legalism to go....He compares it to lukewarm water....He says, "I am about to vomit you out". So legalism makes Christ sick. Why? It causes division. Instead His desire is for the proud to love those who they feel superior to. How? By letting go of one's spiritual pride.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Again, where you have self you have sin....You have division, instead Christ wish is for the legalism to go and in its place accept salvation full & complete in Himself....Then we can genuinely begin to love one another.....

[Tom Wetmore]

"By their fruits you shall know them" is talking about false prophets. What are the fruits of their message?

...then I shall judge that all of you are unconverted, because there is disunity among you, and Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one...

Precisely! That distinctive and evident oneness or unity for which he prayed he likewise reminded his disciples by saying, "Everyone will know you are my followers by your love for one another."

Would the curious visitor to this place conclude that there is much love here among us?

[Woody]

Please don't feed the drama queens and,

thanks

g

Perhaps you have been gone recently og. But most of us here are trying to promote a healthy forum where we don't call grouups of people names such as "drama queens" or "legalists".

I would be tempted to have a come back towards you such as "don't feed into the legalists". But, that is not what we are trying to promote here on this forum.

So, I hope in the future you can dispense with the snide remarks about drama queens and I will dispense with calling you a legalist.

Deal? Can we shake on it?

Cool.

[Robert]

There is a world of difference between refraining from killing someone and loving your enemy.

There is a world of difference between telling no falsehood about someone and saying kind and comforting words to those in distress.

There is a world of difference between not stealing a person's stuff and sharing all you have with the poor.

There is a world of difference between honoring and respecting your parents and taking care of the widows (someone elses parent) and orphans.

There is a world of difference between not having sex with another's spouse and truly being at one with your own spouse.

There is a world of difference between not coveting your neighbor's stuff and greedily coveting and hoarding your own stuff (gaining the whole world...)at the expense of your own soul.

Yes, Jesus meant a whole lot more than just keeping the ten commandments when he said to love one another.

Oh man...this is good!!!!

[Woody]

"By their fruits you shall know them" is talking about false prophets. What are the fruits of their message?

So judging fruit is not about making fallible human judgments about how Christian or un-Christian other people are. If I'm going to judge everyone's Christian experience by my limited understanding (which is where the "judge with right judgment" comes in), then I shall judge that all of you are unconverted, because there is disunity among you, and Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one.

Using those verses to justify judging the salvation of someone you've never met is quite a stretch.

How True. Excellent Post. Thank you SivartM.

[Robert]

yes, and that may be roberts basic point.

we can think we are keeping the letter of the law, or we can study Christ so as to learn to live the spirit of the law.

Oh, wow...this is really getting good. Bingo!!

[Gerr]

Quote:

I'm going with the context, Gerry....You are adding and hence placing the believer back under law.

Are you saying that when Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments," that He was in no way referring to the 10c?

Are not the 10c commandments of love? When Jesus was asked the greatest commandment, He quoted two, love to God and love for our fellowman. Then He said ALL other commandments and whatever the prophets taught hang from these two commandments.

But let's jusgt say that the 10c is not what Jesus was talking about but rather just the law of love. Nonetheless, IT IS A LAW, A COMMAND. Therefore, by your logic Jesus is putting you back under the yoke of law!

Quote:

Here's the problem. The Jews, God's people...the remnant of that time, thought that they were better than the Gentiles. Even the Apostle Peter fell into this after he was mature (see Gal chapter 2). Speaking of spiritual pride Paul says, "If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

Again, legalism builds one's pride. Look at Paul before he became a Christian: "As to the righteousness under the law, blameless"!

Here's the thing, legalism ALWAYS brings division. It's even here on CA. The two systems, works and grace, will never have unity. The legalists will always cause division, yet they will point the finger at those under grace as those bringing in trouble. I've been accused of it many times, yet I'm not the one bring in heresy.

You keep building strawmen. Strawmen of heretics and legalists, when NO ONE has ever claimed being saved by any good works they do. It has been repeated over and over and over that we are saved by grace through faith alone. That obedience is faith's loving response, yet you keep calling it legalism. Why are you against righteous living? Do you want lawlessness preached instead to prove we are living under grace?

What caused the first division in heaven? Was it legalism? NO!!! It was lawlessness! That is why the devil is working so hard to perpetuate his rebellion against God's law of love!

Quote:

Yes, I'll stand up to legalists...

And so will I continue to stand up to lawlessness.

[Woody]

Quote:

Oh man...this is good!!!!

Yes it IS. Excellent .

[Robert]

And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit ...?

Wow...now that's bragging!

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

You know...when I use to attend the local SDA church I remember many a time the wealthy would get up in front of the church and say the same as the Pharisee especially in the area of tithing. So one of the lat days I attended I took a tithe envelope and wrote on it, "Giving to get is not giving, it's sin".

Do you understand what I mean by that Gerry, or do you think in one dimension? I'll give you a clue: "The Pharisees, who were lovers of money...."

[Woody]

Quote:

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Again, where you have self you have sin....You have division, instead Christ wish is for the legalism to go and in its place accept salvation full & complete in Himself....Then we can genuinely begin to love one another.....

Excellent. Excellent. This is the bottom line.

God calls us to be united for HIS cause. And what you have said is SO true. If we can unite under God's GRACE ... then the work of spreading the Gospel will be completed through our unity with Him. This is so needed ... not only here on this forum but in all of our churches. May GOD be Glorified and not our own selves and our pitiful works that we might do. May we bring honor to HIM and HIM alone.

[Gerr]

"By their fruits you shall know them" is talking about false prophets. What are the fruits of their message?

So judging fruit is not about making fallible human judgments about how Christian or un-Christian other people are. If I'm going to judge everyone's Christian experience by my limited understanding (which is where the "judge with right judgment" comes in), then I shall judge that all of you are unconverted, because there is disunity among you, and Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one.

Using those verses to justify judging the salvation of someone you've never met is quite a stretch.

Is there anything in fruit inspection about judging someone's salvation? Is there anything in what I said that even remotely hints that I am at liberty to make judgments about someone's salvation?

Is the verse only about false prophets? Or does it refer to anyone making certain claims in general?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit ...?

Wow...now that's bragging!

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

You know...when I use to attend the local SDA church I remember many a time the wealthy would get up in front of the church and say the same as the Pharisee especially in the area of tithing. So one of the lat days I attended I took a tithe envelope and wrote on it, "Giving to get is not giving, it's sin".

Do you understand what I mean by that Gerry, or do you think in one dimension? I'll give you a clue: "The Pharisees, who were lovers of money...."

TU

We are not to work for wages ... those who employ this means will be lost.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

"By their fruits you shall know them" is talking about false prophets. What are the fruits of their message?

So judging fruit is not about making fallible human judgments about how Christian or un-Christian other people are. If I'm going to judge everyone's Christian experience by my limited understanding (which is where the "judge with right judgment" comes in), then I shall judge that all of you are unconverted, because there is disunity among you, and Jesus prayed that all of His followers would be one.

Using those verses to justify judging the salvation of someone you've never met is quite a stretch.

Is there anything in fruit inspection about judging someone's salvation? Is there anything in what I said that even remotely hints that I am at liberty to make judgments about someone's salvation?

Is the verse only about false prophets? Or does it refer to anyone making certain claims in general?

Yes Gerry. I think you are stretching things. We are to look to Christ and Christ ALONE as our example. Judge Christ if need be ... but not mere mortal and sinful man. For each time you do so ... you will be disappointed.

[Robert]

We should not only refrain from harming our neighbor, but perform works of love...

Okay...no problem with works of love, but you and others teach that the law is binding on the believer. If that's the case your works of love must include EGW's statement:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

[Woody]

Quote:

Why are you against righteous living?

Please demonstrate to us where ANYone has spoken "against righteous living". This is yet another straw man of your's.

[Robert]

It has been repeated over and over and over that we are saved by grace through faith alone. That obedience is faith's loving response, yet you keep calling it legalism.

Obedience to the law or "the obedience of faith"?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It has been repeated over and over and over that we are saved by grace through faith alone. That obedience is faith's loving response, yet you keep calling it legalism.

Obedience to the law or "the obedience of faith"?

Why can't it be both? Faith and grace result in good works that mirror that grace. Isn't that right? (I could be wrong...)