Conditional Forgiveness

[Robert]

What caused the first division in heaven? Was it legalism? NO!!! It was lawlessness!

"Iniquity".....

Remember Matthew's warning?

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is iniquity?

The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].

So these folks in Matthew chapter 7 are believers, but they are self-deceived. As with the Pharisees, "all they do is to be seen of men".

What does that mean? Again, back to 1 Cor 13:3

"If I give all I possess to the poor...that I may boast, but do not have love [agape], I gain nothing!"

If you keep the Sabbath so that Jesus will let you into heaven you are outwardly keeping the law, but inwardly you are doing it for self-centered, egocentric motives. Your works deny that "in Christ" I have salvation full and complete because they lack that ingredient called "agape". Only when you have assurance can God produce in you fruit that aren't tainted with self-interests....

That's what EGW means by, "when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life."

So if we are to produce genuine fruit we must allow Christ to let us see how self-centered we really are.....Then we shall see that all those so-called good works...all that bragging about being a commandment-keeper and about being one of God's remnant, will be seen as monuments to self!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And why do you and Robert get bent out of shape because others are for bearing much fruit instead of just some piddly fruit ...?

Wow...now that's bragging!

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

You know...when I use to attend the local SDA church I remember many a time the wealthy would get up in front of the church and say the same as the Pharisee especially in the area of tithing. So one of the lat days I attended I took a tithe envelope and wrote on it, "Giving to get is not giving, it's sin".

Do you understand what I mean by that Gerry, or do you think in one dimension? I'll give you a clue: "The Pharisees, who were lovers of money...."

Is one bragging because one is FOR (in favor of) bearing much fruit?

What if I said you are bragging because you are in favor of just piddly fruit?

Go on. Build your strawmen and keep knocking them down.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Obedience to the law or "the obedience of faith"? [/quote']

Why can't it be both? Faith and grace result in good works that mirror that grace. Isn't that right? (I could be wrong...)

Exactly. Pam, that is what I have been saying over and over. Faith cannot be known except by what it does. One cannot possibly receive God's grace and not make a person gracious. How can one ask for forgiveness and and keep willfully doing the same thing over and over? How can God pronounce someone righteous and then not make that person righteous? That's madness!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Obedience to the law or "the obedience of faith"? [/quote']

Why can't it be both?

Paul:

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because "the just by faith shall live." 12 On the other hand the law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "Whoever does these things will by them live." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[Woody]

Quote:

How can God pronounce someone righteous and then not make that person righteous? That's madness!

No. It is the Gospel. This is exactly what Christ does for each of us. For we most certainly are not righteous. HE alone is Righteous. And HIS righteousness stand in our place in the judgment. He died that we might live. How precious it is when rightly understood.

Some will continue to strive to claim that they have enough righteousness to stand before the curse of the Law. But the Law will win each time. The only way you can obtain life ever lasting ... is to claim the life of Jesus in the place of your life.

" By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7). {1SM 367.1}

He Becomes Our Righteousness

"Christ looks at the spirit, and when He sees us carrying our burden with faith, His perfect holiness atones for our shortcomings. When we do our best, He becomes our righteousness. It takes every ray of light that God sends to us to make us the light of the world."--Letter 22, 1889.

"The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." {SC 62.2}

[Robert]

How can God pronounce someone righteous and then not make that person righteous? That's madness!

Yes, it makes legalists foam at the mouth....The tragedy is that they do not understand the truth as it is in Christ. If they did they would see the following:

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our justification, scantification and glorification.

"In Christ" we are already complete....That's in him....In our experience we are not complete. We will be complete when we receive our glorified sinless lives that are currently "in Christ in the heavenly places".....

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Wow...now that's bragging!

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else' date=' Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

You know...when I use to attend the local SDA church I remember many a time the wealthy would get up in front of the church and say the same as the Pharisee especially in the area of tithing. So one of the lat days I attended I took a tithe envelope and wrote on it, "Giving to get is not giving, it's sin".

Do you understand what I mean by that Gerry, or do you think in one dimension? I'll give you a clue: "The Pharisees, who were lovers of money...." [/quote']

Is one bragging because one is FOR (in favor of) bearing much fruit?

What if I said you are bragging because you are in favor of just piddly fruit?

Go on. Build your strawmen and keep knocking them down.

Aren't you building your own straw man by calling certain fruit "piddly"? The implication being that your own fruit is superior? I think your "opponents" are quite in favor of bearing much fruit. But you don't think their fruit is acceptable to God because you have disagreements with them. That is UN-right judgment.

[Woody]

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

How can God pronounce someone righteous and then not make that person righteous? That's madness!

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our justification, scantification and glorification.

"In Christ" we are already complete....That's in him....In our experience we are not complete. We will be complete when we receive our glorified sinless lives that are currently "in Christ in the heavenly places".....

Does EGW agree? Why, of course....

-BC- RC

-TI- Reflecting Christ

-CN- 62

-CT- We Are Complete In Christ

-PR- 05

-PG- 76

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Col 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

[Tom Wetmore]

...What caused the first division in heaven? Was it legalism? NO!!! It was lawlessness!...

Lawlessness? In heaven?

Actually, not quite. Keeping the "law" (whatever it is you mean by that in the atmosphere of heaven where laws, as such, were unnecessary) did not prevent the first division (sin) from occurring in heaven, a perfect place inhabited by perfect and sinless beings.

It was a breakdown in selfless agape love in the heart of one being. The harmony of heaven was disrupted by exaltation of self or arrogance, the very sin that caused the destruction of Sodom. Lucifer made a choice in his heart saying to himself, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Notice that "I" alone is at the very center of sin.

[Robert]

Oh man...you are on a roll....This is good!

[Tom Wetmore]

Once more with feeling... How quickly we divert ourselves from the opening premise of this topic...

It's about forgiveness, simple unadulterated forgiveness.

Quote:

When God forgives, he doesn't go back on his word. Do we think He is a liar?!?!

Questions elicited by your statement:

1. Is forgiveness therefore unconditional?

2. That when a believer (who has therefore been forgiven of all past sins) decides to turn his back on God that he is only accountable for the sins he commits after he turns his back on God?

If so, would you kindly provide Scriptural or SOP support?

That is simply a non sequitur. That is like asking if forgiveness is fair, if grace is just. Of course it's not. But it is the only way out of this whole mess. It is the only hope we have of making it out of here alive.

Conditions are limitations. Did Jesus describe a limit on forgiveness? True forgiveness is unqualified and unequivocal and is to be dispensed without limitation. And it is the one and only thing that sets all this to right.

Forgiveness is the divine reset button.

Maybe we could use the reset button to start this discussion of forgiveness over.

[teresaq]

Conditional Forgiveness

Jesus taught a principle in the parable of the two debtors (Matt 18:23-35). Paraphrasing that parable:

A King had a servant who owed him a huge amount of money; but, being unable to pay the debt, and expressing genuine contrition, the King forgave the man the debt. But that very same servant knew another man (a fellow-servant) who had a small outstanding debt to him, and that man, being unable to repay the debt, asked to be forgiven. But the first man refused to forgive the debt, and cast him into prison until he should pay it all.

The King, hearing about this, immediately withdrew his forgiveness and re-instated the debt.

Jesus then makes the fearful point of the illustration. He explains, "So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also to you, if you from your hearts do not forgive every one his brother their trespasses."

This teaches, in my view, the conditional nature of forgiveness, and shows how past forgiveness can be nullified by sin. Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated.

[Gerr]

Quote:

How can God pronounce someone righteous and then not make that person righteous? That's madness!

No. It is the Gospel. This is exactly what Christ does for each of us. For we most certainly are not righteous. HE alone is Righteous. And HIS righteousness stand in our place in the judgment. He died that we might live. How precious it is when rightly understood.

{DA 762.1}

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God’s holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26#

MB 149.1}

Religion consists in doing the words of Christ; not doing to earn God’s favor, but because, all undeserving, we have received the gift of His love. Christ places the salvation of man, not upon profession merely, but upon faith that is made manifest in works of righteousness. Doing, not saying merely, is expected of the followers of Christ. It is through action that character is built. "As many as are led by the Spirit [bEGIN P.150] of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14. Not those whose hearts are touched by the Spirit, not those who now and then yield to its power, but they that are led by the Spirit, are the sons of God.#

Quote:

Some will continue to strive to claim that they have enough righteousness to stand before the curse of the Law. But the Law will win each time. The only way you can obtain life ever lasting ... is to claim the life of Jesus in the place of your life.

That's the strawman you and Robert keep raising up no matter how many times it's been knocked down. Because I and many others call for obedience to God & His commandments as the loving response of faith, you call it legalism, that with obedience we are somehow earning our way

into heaven. Why don't you produce ONE, JUST ONE statement made by ANYONE that they will merit heaven BECAUSE of their obedience. JUST ONE will do.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Forgiveness is the divine reset button.

Therefore as long as I keep asking for forgiveness, the only one I am accountable for is the last one I did not ask forgiveness for?

Non sequitor?

Quote:

Maybe we could use the reset button to start this discussion of forgiveness over.

You must have a yen for punishment!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

...What caused the first division in heaven? Was it legalism? NO!!! It was lawlessness!...

Lawlessness? In heaven?

Actually, not quite. Keeping the "law" (whatever it is you mean by that in the atmosphere of heaven where laws, as such, were unnecessary) did not prevent the first division (sin) from occurring in heaven, a perfect place inhabited by perfect and sinless beings.

It was a breakdown in selfless agape love in the heart of one being. The harmony of heaven was disrupted by exaltation of self or arrogance, the very sin that caused the destruction of Sodom. Lucifer made a choice in his heart saying to himself, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Notice that "I" alone is at the very center of sin.

"Sin is lawlessness," 1 Jn 3:4 ESV, and it was Lucifer who sinned "in the beginning," 1 Jn 3:8. But you are right. The law that Lucifer violated was the Law of Love, from which ALL the other laws & the 10c and what the prophets taught are derived.

[Gerr]

Quote:

" By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7). {1SM 367.1}

He Becomes Our Righteousness

How true, but she also has these to say:

{COL 315.2}

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the word. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are

316

no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world. {COL 315.3}

All these expect to be saved by Christ's death, while they refuse to live His self-sacrificing life. They extol the riches of free grace, and attempt to cover themselves with an appearance of righteousness, hoping to screen their defects of character; but their efforts will be of no avail in the day of God.

The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. A man may be a law-breaker in heart; yet if he commits no outward act of transgression, he may be regarded by the world as possessing great integrity. But God's law looks into the secrets of the heart. Every act is judged by the motives that prompt it. Only that which is in accord with the principles of God's law will stand in the judgment

{SD 13.2}

Christ loves His church. He will give all needed help to those who call upon Him for strength for the development of Christlike character. But His love is not weakness. He will not serve with their sins or give them prosperity while they continue to follow a wrong course of action. Only by faithful repentance will their sins be forgiven; for God will not cover evil with the robe of His righteousness.

The world's Redeemer declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." "I counsel thee," saith the True Witness, "to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Christ's righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. "All unrighteousness is sin," and "sin is the transgression of the law," therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ's righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father's law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God. {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 12}

[teresaq]

Quote:

" By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7). {1SM 367.1}

He Becomes Our Righteousness

How true, but she also has these to say:

{COL 315.2}

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the word. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world. {COL 315.3}

All these expect to be saved by Christ's death, while they refuse to live His self-sacrificing life. They extol the riches of free grace, and attempt to cover themselves with an appearance of righteousness, hoping to screen their defects of character; but their efforts will be of no avail in the day of God.

The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. A man may be a law-breaker in heart; yet if he commits no outward act of transgression, he may be regarded by the world as possessing great integrity. But God's law looks into the secrets of the heart. Every act is judged by the motives that prompt it. Only that which is in accord with the principles of God's law will stand in the judgment

{SD 13.2}

Christ loves His church. He will give all needed help to those who call upon Him for strength for the development of Christlike character. But His love is not weakness. He will not serve with their sins or give them prosperity while they continue to follow a wrong course of action. Only by faithful repentance will their sins be forgiven; for God will not cover evil with the robe of His righteousness.

The world's Redeemer declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." "I counsel thee," saith the True Witness, "to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Christ's righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. "All unrighteousness is sin," and "sin is the transgression of the law," therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ's righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father's law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God. {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 12}

it seems to me that the bolded part is saying the same thing your several paragraphs are. so, im at a loss as to what the either/or is as implied in your sentence.

or is there an implied accusation intended?

[teresaq]

That's the strawman you and Robert keep raising up no matter how many times it's been knocked down. Because I and many others call for obedience to God & His commandments as the loving response of faith' date=' you call it legalism, that with obedience we are somehow earning our way

into heaven. Why don't you produce ONE, JUST ONE statement made by ANYONE that they will merit heaven BECAUSE of their obedience. JUST ONE will do.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes Gerry. I think you are stretching things. We are to look to Christ and Christ ALONE as our example. Judge Christ if need be ... but not mere mortal and sinful man. For each time you do so ... you will be disappointed.

By their fruits you shall know them. - Jesus.

And who is looking to man for salvation? Raising another strawman again?

"Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith," Heb 12:2.

"Abide IN ME and I IN YOU.... and you will bear much fruit." Jesus - Jn 15.

[SivartM]

What is fruit?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Aren't you building your own straw man by calling certain fruit "piddly"? The implication being that your own fruit is superior? I think your "opponents" are quite in favor of bearing much fruit. But you don't think their fruit is acceptable to God because you have disagreements with them. That is UN-right judgment.

No such implication. But if you have been debating Robert for as long as I have, you would understand that once you accept Jesus and are justified your salvation is assured and need not obey God's law because believers have been delivered from obedience to it. Oh, he believes in growth, a little bit of growth, hence the piddly fruit. But if you ask him if by growth it means becoming more obedient or not, he will evade the question. At least he has evaded it in the past.

No. It is not my place to say whether his fruit is acceptable to God or not. My only point is that one cannot claim to be "in Christ", know Christ, while disobeying His commandments, 1 Jn 2:4. In fact, the Apostle John provides with a number of litmus tests by which we can know whether the claim of knowing Christ, being in Christ, or whether one's doctrine is true or false. All I am doing is applying that litmus test. Whether a person is really saved or lost, that judgment belongs to God alone.

[Gerr]

What is fruit?

Gal 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ESV.

Jn 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ESV

Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. ESV.

Ps 119:165 Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble.

[Gerr]

[teresaq]