Conditional Forgiveness

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, and the whole thing is a distraction from what we were discussing, which was whether God had to make a decision. When you have options, a decision is necessary. Only if God had no options would He not need to make a decision. And if He had no options, He wouldn't be God, would He?

This is an interesting way of putting it.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: karl

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

it sounds so cold and unfeeling on the part of God, is what i am hearing.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

i also think that how we portray God is of far more importance than anything else could be. i think you would agree with that.

You know, I don't have any problem with you restating something I have posted in your own words so that it seems more aptly put to you. I had one shot at restating "kill all the rebels and start over" approximately thusly: Those who refused God's offer of safety were left outside the ark while He rearranged the earth in such a way that no living thing survived.

I guess I'm just not talented enough to describe the destruction of the pre-flood civilization and habitat in a comfy way. Obviously my two tries were inadequate for you, so this is your cue to use your own keyboard and render the concept in a way that will make us feel better about it.

[WayneV]

Wayne, I don't see how one could logically be an Adventist without believing in God's permissive will. Indeed, the only logically consistent alternative I can think of, off the top of my head, in terms of Christianity would be to be a 5 point Calvinist.

pnat,

I never claimed to "logically be an Adventist", nor to be a logical Adventist. I know I am not a 5-point Calvinist. However, I do believe that Calvin made some good points regarding predestination.

One thing I do believe is that God has only one will, His sovereign will, which will be carried out in spite of our choices.

Agape`

[teresaq]

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

[WayneV]

As long as you've got options, decisions must be made. I hope you're not maintaining that God had no options. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

God still, at the cross, had the option to say "kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

Karl,

God, Himself, had eliminated all of His other options. To exercise any other option than the one He had promised since the Garden would have made God out to be a liar. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

Agape`

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

As long as you've got options, decisions must be made. I hope you're not maintaining that God had no options. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

God still, at the cross, had the option to say "kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

Karl,

God, Himself, had eliminated all of His other options. To exercise any other option than the one He had promised since the Garden would have made God out to be a liar. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

Agape`

Had he DECIDED to eliminate his other options? Or did someone else make that decision for Him? Deciding to eliminate options is what we do when we make a decision.

Could God have decided to let people call Him a liar, take His toys and go home? This was an option, but not one He would take because of His character. But let's not mistake God's marvelous character for a God out of options. He did what He did voluntarily. That is one of the beauties of it.

[teresaq]

God, Himself, had eliminated all of His other options. To exercise any other option than the one He had promised since the Garden would have made God out to be a liar. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

it seems to me that God wouldnt have been God if He had not implemented the plan of salvation. i mean there wouldnt have been much difference between Him and satan then in my mind.

not "arguin" (something someone with the problem of accused another with having ) with you here, cause i dont have your complete picture here, just expressing the thoughts it brought to mind.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Wayne, I don't see how one could logically be an Adventist without believing in God's permissive will. Indeed, the only logically consistent alternative I can think of, off the top of my head, in terms of Christianity would be to be a 5 point Calvinist.

pnat,

I never claimed to "logically be an Adventist", nor to be a logical Adventist. I know I am not a 5-point Calvinist. However, I do believe that Calvin made some good points regarding predestination.

One thing I do believe is that God has only one will, His sovereign will, which will be carried out in spite of our choices.

Agape`

I can't know the persuasion of everyone who posts here. I spoke of "one" above.

If one thinks God has only one will, I think this logically leads to being a 5-point Calvinist. One could avoid that either by lack of knowledge (not knowing what Calvin taught) or by setting logic aside (Lutherans, for example, choose to do this. Really! It's an interesting concept).

Assuming God has only one will, why did sin come about?

[oldsailor29]

Our God is one,creator and redeemer. He stands outside of time and space, in His infinite realm, and creates life. He is also inside of time and space, in his finite realm, all of which He has created. His plan of salvation has always been with Him in both realms. He is our personal redeemer. In all the time of His finite realm, there was always the possibility of sin. And in the amount of time which has passed and the amount of time which is to come, the possibility of sin statistically becomes the probability, and the unavoidability. Just as salvation has always been part of His plan, so sin has always been part of it. He is the one and only sovereign Deity. Isaiah quotes God, saying He created both good and evil. "Great Controversy" says He is keeping sin alive for our benefit. We should be thankful for all of the blessings He bestows.

[karl]

Are we granted forgiveness before we ask for it? Is our having been forgiven something that already exists for every sin? Or is it a conditional forgiveness, as the name of this thread implies?

[doug yowell]

Are we granted forgiveness before we ask for it? Is our having been forgiven something that already exists for every sin? Or is it a conditional forgiveness, as the name of this thread implies?

Karl, Quit trying to change the subjects!

[WayneV]

Had he DECIDED to eliminate his other options? Or did someone else make that decision for Him?

Karl,

I would posit that if someone else is making the decisions for God, then God is not God at all. Instead, the person making those decisions would be the true God. Who is it that you believe was making God's decisions for Him. Perhaps we should move our allegiance to the one making the decisions.

Agape`

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

God, Himself, had eliminated all of His other options. To exercise any other option than the one He had promised since the Garden would have made God out to be a liar. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

it seems to me that God wouldnt have been God if He had not implemented the plan of salvation. i mean there wouldnt have been much difference between Him and satan then in my mind.

teresaq,

I guess I am missing the tension between what you have stated and what you have quoted from my post. If I am understanding what you have written, then we would be in agreement. Unless, of course, you don't believe that God implemented the plan of salvation from (before?) the foundation of creation.

Agape`

[WayneV]

If one thinks God has only one will, I think this logically leads to being a 5-point Calvinist. One could avoid that either by lack of knowledge (not knowing what Calvin taught) or by setting logic aside (Lutherans, for example, choose to do this. Really! It's an interesting concept).

Assuming God has only one will, why did sin come about?

pnat,

I think that faith does indeed occasionally set aside logic. It is not logical to have faith that a city would fall because an army marched around it for seven days and then broke pitchers and blew trumpets. Faith that steps out of a perfectly sound boat to walk on the water is not logical. Having faith to step into the river, believing that God will cause a way to cross where no crossing exists, is not logical. I take comfort in the company with which I journey.

I believe that you know that sin came about because God was gracious enough to create man with the freedom to choose, either to love or reject Him. This in no way inhibits, prevents, modifies, or negates the will of God. If man could do so, then God wouldn't be much of a God; would He?

Agape`