They Love Jesus, They Don't Love the Church

[CGMedley]

What's happening with Christian youth today? Why are they shunning organized religion? Michael Craven shares his thoughts. http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=1883

[abelisle]

Thanks for the link to that article. It was very powerful! It sure would be nice to have young people like the ones spoken about in that article to respond to it here. Do we even have a separate forum for younger members?

Alex

[Woody]

Quote:

Do we even have a separate forum for younger members?

No. You've been talking to them today ... you just didn't know it.

[SivartM]

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites. You can especially see that on certain sections of this website, where people argue with each other about agape and living righteously all the while insulting each other and tearing each other down. It's rather sickening when you think about it.

I think most of the young people who leave the Adventist church do so because of dysfunctional adults. And they wonder why we leave? I'd probably leave if it wasn't for Jesus and if I didn't believe in the church's message. It is the highest form of irony when adults wonder why young people leave the church, and subsequently attack them under the guise of Christianity.

And frankly, most of the arguments that tear the church apart and push young people to leave are completely irrelevant. Things like that make Christianity look stupid.

So far in my virtual interactions I have been told that I am stupid and unwanted (in "nicer" words, of course) quite a few times by "Christian" adults. If it wasn't for the positive interactions I also have I would give in to the emotional stress and just leave. That's basically what's happening in the church at large.

[P.S. I'm 17, in case anyone didn't know.]

[Woody]

Thanks for that insight SivartM.

[abelisle]

Hi sivart,

I'd like to apologize to you and other youth I might have offended by not realizing that you were youth. Obviously you present yourself very well, so well that I thought of you as an older mature adult!

You should request a separate forum for youth. You certainly deserve it.

Alex (was a youth once upon a time )

[SivartM]

That's fine, I don't mind. A lot of people seem to miss that information for some reason.

That would be nice, but I only know of one other teenager who gets on here much. So I guess the separate forum could be called "private messaging". :D

[Steve Billiter]

Hi sivart,

I'd like to apologize to you and other youth I might have offended by not realizing that you were youth. Obviously you present yourself very well, so well that I thought of you as an older mature adult!

You should request a separate forum for youth. You certainly deserve it.

Alex (was a youth once upon a time )

It appears to me since he is 17 and approaching adult status, he would (or she?) like to mix with adults to help form life experiences as well as associating with other older youth.

Adventist youth that are solidly committed to Christ and the 3 angels messages will be instrumental in finishing the work.

The great outpouring of the Spirit of God, which lightens the whole earth with His glory, will not come until we have an enlightened people, that know by experience what it means to be laborers together with God. When we have entire, wholehearted consecration to the service of Christ, God will recognize the fact by an outpouring of His Spirit without measure; but this will not be while the largest portion of the church are not laborers together with God.--ChS 253 (1896). {LDE 193.3}

PRAY FOR THE LATTER RAIN.—We must pray that God will unseal the fountain of the water of life. And we must ourselves receive of the living water. Let us, with contrite hearts, pray most earnestly that now, in the time of the latter rain, the showers of grace may fall upon us. At every meeting we attend our prayers should ascend,

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that at this very time God will impart warmth and moisture to our souls. As we seek God for the Holy Spirit, it will work in us meekness, humbleness of mind, a conscious dependence upon God for the perfecting latter rain. If we pray for the blessing in faith, we shall receive it as God has promised.—(Testimonies to Ministers, 508.) {Pr 119.6}

Now the fulfillment of that view is beginning to be seen. "The commencement of that time of trouble," here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out. {EW 85.3}

The work will be similar to that of the Day of Pentecost. As the "former rain" was given, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the opening of the gospel, to cause the upspringing of the precious seed, so the "latter rain" will be given at its close for the ripening of the harvest. "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord:

His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." Hosea 6:3. "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for He hath given you the former rain moderately, and He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain." Joel 2:23. "In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh." "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:17, 21. {GC 611.2}

"Some have said that they thought that at this meeting several days ought to be spent in prayer to God for the Holy Spirit, as at the day of Pentecost. I wish to say to you that the business which may be carried on at this meeting is just as much a part of the service of God as is prayer. The business meeting is to be just as much under the dictation of the Spirit as the prayer meeting. There is danger of our getting a sentimental, impulsive religion." 3SM 336

The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the

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former rain at the opening of the gospel are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. Here are "the times of refreshing" to which the apostle Peter looked forward when he said: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus." Acts 3:19, 20. {GC 611.3}

Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers. Satan also works, with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand. {GC 612.1}

The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented. The seed has been sown, and now it will spring up and bear fruit. The publications distributed by missionary workers have exerted their influence, yet many whose minds were impressed have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth or from yielding obedience.

Now the rays of light penetrate everywhere, the truth is seen in its clearness, and the honest children of God sever the bands which have held them. Family connections, church relations, are powerless to stay them now. Truth is more precious than all besides. Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord's side. {GC 612.2}

“The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.” --3SM 385 (1886). {LDE 179.2}

"The commencement of that time of trouble," here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the "latter rain," or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out. {EW 85.3}

[phkrause]

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites. You can especially see that on certain sections of this website, where people argue with each other about agape and living righteously all the while insulting each other and tearing each other down. It's rather sickening when you think about it.

I think most of the young people who leave the Adventist church do so because of dysfunctional adults. And they wonder why we leave? I'd probably leave if it wasn't for Jesus and if I didn't believe in the church's message. It is the highest form of irony when adults wonder why young people leave the church, and subsequently attack them under the guise of Christianity.

And frankly, most of the arguments that tear the church apart and push young people to leave are completely irrelevant. Things like that make Christianity look stupid.

So far in my virtual interactions I have been told that I am stupid and unwanted (in "nicer" words, of course) quite a few times by "Christian" adults. If it wasn't for the positive interactions I also have I would give in to the emotional stress and just leave. That's basically what's happening in the church at large.

[P.S. I'm 17, in case anyone didn't know.]

Excellent post Sivart, especially about the agape people, as they talk but don't walk there own talk. Unless we can follow are own talk people will have a hard time believing anything we spew frow our mouths.

pk

[Tom Wetmore]

SivartM,

I hear you and understand what you are saying. As one more than 3 times your age I more than agree with what you just posted - I identify with it. I appreciate the fresh perspective you bring to this place. (I also have visited the blog of our friendly neighborhood hamster. I particularly enjoyed A Tale Like No Other.)

Keep it Up!

Tom

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites. You can especially see that on certain sections of this website, where people argue with each other about agape and living righteously all the while insulting each other and tearing each other down. It's rather sickening when you think about it.

I think most of the young people who leave the Adventist church do so because of dysfunctional adults. And they wonder why we leave? I'd probably leave if it wasn't for Jesus and if I didn't believe in the church's message. It is the highest form of irony when adults wonder why young people leave the church, and subsequently attack them under the guise of Christianity.

And frankly, most of the arguments that tear the church apart and push young people to leave are completely irrelevant. Things like that make Christianity look stupid.

So far in my virtual interactions I have been told that I am stupid and unwanted (in "nicer" words, of course) quite a few times by "Christian" adults. If it wasn't for the positive interactions I also have I would give in to the emotional stress and just leave. That's basically what's happening in the church at large.

I agree with you, SivartM, but it's not only young people who leave the church for the above reasons that you mention - adults leave as well. I've been told that I was "unwanted" too. And not just in cyberspace, but in person as well. Doesn't make me feel very good....or want to stay where I'm not wanted..

[Tom Wetmore]

Truly, this timely article is a must read!!!

The difference between this generation and my own is one of honesty. They honestly give voice to what many older ones are afraid to admit. And those afraid to step out of their comfortable complacency within the church.

The church reaching out in traditional evangelistic ways to those in this experience will be ignored and avoided.

This is the emerging church of those with spirituality but without being bound by organized traditional ritualistic religion. It is real. It is authentic. It is the body of Christ.

Let's not stifle it.

[Woody]

Yes. This is why we need youth like SivartM to keep us alive and honest. He also inspires us adults to behave ourselves. Not that we do ... but perhaps we think of doing it more.

[Overaged]

That's fine, I don't mind. A lot of people seem to miss that information for some reason.

That would be nice, but I only know of one other teenager who gets on here much. So I guess the separate forum could be called "private messaging".

Some are probably like me, they never look at the poster's profiles. Highly negligent, I know but I am just discovering how interesting that can be!

I have a son just your age; I know he would agree with much of what you say. Sometimes, we "adults" act your age; and sometimes you young people act our age. LOL. But, having two teen age boys; I do know that I am not young enough to "know everything." (just having a little fun). Keep up with the great posts and great Christian spirit/example that you show to others online.

[Twilight]

My concerns with the argument?

How do we know this is representative?

Upon what basis do we know that the author represents the "youth"?

Mark

[Woody]

Oh brother. Mark, we take it because it is valuable.

[Twilight]

Oh brother. Mark, we take it because it is valuable.

But I could say:

The youth are not happy with the liberality in the church.

4 out of 5 youth have expressed this.

What does that mean?

Does that really mean the youth agree throughout the church?

So what is the source of the statistics etc?

That is my point.

He may well be correct, but I will not accept it just because it sounds "nice"...

Mark :-)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My concerns with the argument?

How do we know this is representative?

Upon what basis do we know that the author represents the "youth"?

Mark

Kinnamon & Lyons, unChristian, Baker Books, 2007, pp.33-34 Read the book, if you really care.

[Overaged]

My concerns with the argument?

How do we know this is representative?

Upon what basis do we know that the author represents the "youth"?

Mark

You ask some good questions - but do you honestly believe that most youth are happy with Church, as they/we currently know it in MOST localities of North America?

I know some youth who seem better at doing Church than I am. They always seem to make the best of it no matter whats going on or not going on. I find most young people to be more real about Church. We "adults" have simply learned to hide what we openly critisize "young people" for.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My concerns with the argument?

How do we know this is representative?

Upon what basis do we know that the author represents the "youth"?

Mark

You ask some good questions - but do you honestly believe that most youth are happy with Church, as they/we currently know it in MOST localities of North America?

I know some youth who seem better at doing Church than I am. They always seem to make the best of it no matter whats going on or not going on. I find most young people to be more real about Church. We "adults" have simply learned to hide what we openly critisize "young people" for.

I live in the UK and I have to face reality.

The youth are given so much to pull them into the world, that we have to look at both sides of the coin.

I do not think just pointing the finger at the adults is the solution.

Do not get me wrong, as a church we are big on doctrine and small on spirituality, and for this reason the church is not very attractive.

If we were big on doctrine AND spirituality, then we could point to the children and say, "now what is your excuse?".

It is a big problem and it is not just one "group" that is responsible.

I think this finger pointing does no one any good, it smacks of factionalism.

Mark :-)

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]I think a little "finger-pointing" is OK as we all need to hear what people actually think - but you are very right when you say it isn't all the adults fault. On the third side of that coin though - there is often too much blaming of "doctrinal" people when the fact is, most people who correctly understand doctrine are the most spiritual and loving. Its the pretenders who use doctrines as an excuse for all those behaviors we keep complaining about. I would say there are a lot of adults as well as young people who "love Jesus; but they don't love the Church." There are a lot of things out in the world being given to both young and adults, to pull them into the world." Are we going to blame "the world?"

[phkrause]

You ask some good questions - but do you honestly believe that most youth are happy with Church, as they/we currently know it in MOST localities of North America?

I know some youth who seem better at doing Church than I am. They always seem to make the best of it no matter whats going on or not going on. I find most young people to be more real about Church. We "adults" have simply learned to hide what we openly critisize "young people" for.

I live in the UK and I have to face reality.

The youth are given so much to pull them into the world, that we have to look at both sides of the coin.

I do not think just pointing the finger at the adults is the solution.

Do not get me wrong, as a church we are big on doctrine and small on spirituality, and for this reason the church is not very attractive.

If we were big on doctrine AND spirituality, then we could point to the children and say, "now what is your excuse?".

It is a big problem and it is not just one "group" that is responsible.

I think this finger pointing does no one any good, it smacks of factionalism.

Mark :-)

I think you've made some good points Twilight. But let me add that I can remember back to when I was one of those youths. It was no differnet than as it is today. But I do agree with who ever mentioned it, that we do have much more distractions for our youth today. But it still comes down to a choice, do you prefer that to this etc. And I definitely agree that finger pointing does no one any good. I know that almost every church I've visited on any trip I've taken, it looks like there are enough programs and things for the youth to do. I recall a statement that I believe EGW made in one of her books, about allowing our youth to indulge in activities that dull the senses, which will not allow them to enjoy the activities in the church. Something to that effect anyway. For me I'm not sure what or how to compete with certain things, I think its hard or a very fine line. But on the other hand I do see many youth join in on many things, and this might also be in the school that we attend. I mostly attended non SDA schools and the activities there are basically things that are done on Sabbath so you can't participate as much, so you get involved with other things that maybe is what EGW meant. But those that do go to our schools seem to participate in many more spiritual activities. So many this is where the problems lie? Not sure but thought I'd throw that out to you guys to see what you think!

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites.

The problem with this theory is that the church has always been full of judgmental hypocrites. Society has changed within the past three or four decades - especially pop culture. It only reasons that people are becoming more cynical of the church since we see more cynicism in the news, movies and TV programs. We really are in a culture war between religion and human secularism. I think that has more to do with the attitude of our youth than the age-old problem of hypocrites in the church.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites.

The problem with this theory is that the church has always been full of judgmental hypocrites. Society has changed within the past three or four decades - especially pop culture. It only reasons that people are becoming more cynical of the church since we see more cynicism in the news, movies and TV programs. We really are in a culture war between religion and human secularism. I think that has more to do with the attitude of our youth than the age-old problem of hypocrites in the church.

I think you may be right Shane.

[teresaq]

I agree with this article. I think that one of the main reasons young people drift away from the church is because it's full of judgmental hypocrites. You can especially see that on certain sections of this website, where people argue with each other about agape and living righteously all the while insulting each other and tearing each other down. It's rather sickening when you think about it.

I think most of the young people who leave the Adventist church do so because of dysfunctional adults. And they wonder why we leave? I'd probably leave if it wasn't for Jesus and if I didn't believe in the church's message. It is the highest form of irony when adults wonder why young people leave the church, and subsequently attack them under the guise of Christianity.

And frankly, most of the arguments that tear the church apart and push young people to leave are completely irrelevant. Things like that make Christianity look stupid.

So far in my virtual interactions I have been told that I am stupid and unwanted (in "nicer" words, of course) quite a few times by "Christian" adults. If it wasn't for the positive interactions I also have I would give in to the emotional stress and just leave. That's basically what's happening in the church at large.

[P.S. I'm 17, in case anyone didn't know.]

God forbid that i should minimize or whitewash the very real issues in the church, so suffice it to say i do agree with your points, sivart. from what i read in the bible/sop they do also. but then those books werent written by co-des.

i still see you as wise beyond your words, inspite of the times we disagree. or do you just appear that way because some of your "elders" act so spiritually immature?

oh, and by the way, it was that way when i was a child. it absolutely amazes me that there are a few who remain in the church remaining stable, sane, and evergrowing closer to the Lord. from what i know of them that had to do with their parents inspite of the church.