If You Were a Jesuit....

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Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.

I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.

The regular version we use today works just fine, and there is nothing wrong with it. As one who has gone door to door with all of our books; I can easily demonstrate this. The real problem is not usually the books; it is the person, and how they use the book. And that would also apply to the Bible.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.

I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.

Why have them if they are hidden?

[Guest]

Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.

I don't think so O/A. Your statement seems to trust in the arm of man, and not God. Here is what God's messenger had to say about it:

The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}

Men who have not had a vital connection with God see no real necessity of the book Great Controversy coming to the people, because they have eyes but see not. This book should be circulated all through this city. {1888 772.1}

And in the very next paragraph:

The Lord presented the matter before me, that we must make haste. Let the light come to the people in warnings, right here. But those who were seeing only gain, who saw no necessity of urging and making special efforts to get this word from the Lord before the people, were neglecting their God-given duty. I felt intensely, but what could I do? Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom, would follow a course of their own devising, let the result be as it would. The men will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect of this place. Light must shine forth. {1888 772.2}

I arose early, attended morning meeting, and read an article written in regard to the canvassers working so largely for one book, Bible Readings, and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press. The very matter that the people are in need of they do not have, because there is no interest manifested to circulate it. {MR1033 15.2}

There are more statements, but I see no reason to bombard you with them.

[Guest]

Why have them if they are hidden?

Because I bought them years ago before I left the church to go and waste most of my life. I have only been back for a relatively short time, and was just now reminded of them when Gordon said: "1884 GC"

[Gordon1]

I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.

Purple cover?

Interesting to note that the Spirit of Prophecy series Vols. l - 4 (& Sketches from the Life of Paul) were never indexed in print by the White Estate. Nor do they contain their own indexes.

i.e. - Neither the 1926 single-volume EGW Index, nor the 1962-3 three-volume Index, include these precious books.

[Gordon1]

"This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God."

"Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom...and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press."

Good digging Richard. Plain evidence that Ellen White had little control over which books were printed or distributed.

People need to know that she was hated & abused by men who "will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect."

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: RLH

"This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God."

"Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom...and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press."

Good digging Richard. Plain evidence that Ellen White had little control over which books were printed or distributed.

People need to know that she was hated & abused by men who "will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect."

Richard's quotes are quite irrelevant to what I said; as I was specifically referring to the militant fanatics such as we have seen at certain GC meetings, like the one in Indianappolis.

It is not wrong in cases like this to speak against it; and Ellen White was NOT saying in any of those quotes that we must always use great controversy first. The quotes speak clearly to a localized issue where a few men at the top tried to minimize use of the book by literature evangelists. This was clearly wrong; but in denouncing it; Ellen White never once tried to say that the great controversy could/should be used in fanatical militant ways that reeked of hatred and abuse.

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Actually; if Richard would have put it in a proper context; he would have quoted "the rest of the story."

Quote:

Let us not open a door whereby Satan shall find easy access. We want large, sound souls. The windows of the soul must always open heavenward. We must see that the danger is great in the work of reconsidering past royalties and making restitution. Some who have received all the real value of their books will think them of much greater value than they are. Their windows are opened earthward and not heavenward. Throw open the windows heavenward, and let the sunshine of Christ's righteousness in, and the windows of the soul now opened earthward will close of themselves. {PM 237.1}

No one can have been hurt financially more than I was hurt when The Great Controversy lay for nearly two years dead in the office. Just work was not done in this matter. The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}

But I would not now take any restitution money. I accepted the lowest royalty on my books, under a most solemn promise that they would be pushed forward vigorously. This promise was not kept. There was fraud in the management. But I want no restitution; I want no increase of royalty for any books of mine sold in the past. God forbid, when the pressure is strong and means limited, that I should draw one penny from the resources for the carrying forward of the work. {PM 237.3}

So essentially; this was really just a situation between Ellen White and the publisher of her books at that time; and this situation had the effect of witholding the great controversy from the literature ministry; but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.

[Guest]

How in the world do you connect the distribution of the "Great Controversy" with words like "fanatical, militant, hatred, and abuse"? That to me, is a bizarre statement to say the least. And I've never seen anything like that done. How could anybody distribute that book with hatred and abuse?

Please enlighten me.

[Overaged]

How in the world do you connect the distribution of the "Great Controversy" with words like "fanatical, militant, hatred, and abuse"? That to me, is a bizarre statement to say the least. And I've never seen anything like that done. How could anybody distribute that book with hatred and abuse?

Please enlighten me.

Well; you must have your horse-blinkers on. I just stated the context of my posts several times.

[Guest]

but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.

[Gordon1]

The 1884 GC is notably different from the 1911 version now in circulation.

The 1884 is (very roughly) about one-half the word count. (If anyone has the figures, please post).

And the chapter titles are much more descriptive of the Advent movement.

Overall the 1884 GC is a more compact read for a busy schedule.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that.

Hmmmm. Of course you are free to believe and follow whoever you want to. But the "truth" of the matter seems to be that they try to suppress the book more now than they did then.

Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement. Seems to me this "arm of man" you accuse me so confidently of has started growing on you. What on earth do you mean "seems to be?" Don't we need a lot more than a half-baked "seems to be" in order to call it "truth?"

[Guest]

Well; you must have your horse-blinkers on. I just stated the context of my posts several times.

No, you merely referred to "militant fanatics" like the ones in Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts? I wasn't there, so I'm asking.

[Restin]

And how much do the SDA leaders of today long to have this religion accepted among the large Sunday-keeping denominations?!

The Great Controversy book speaks for itself, sets its own tone of exposing the past to warn of the future... emphasis on the word "warn".

[Stan]

Here is how it came together.

Spiritual gifts, the small volume set, each contained two books

as knowledge and writing skills increased became

Spirit of Prophesy set of 4 books

Book 4 became what we call The Great Controversy (Not EGW choice of name btw)

Several revisions over the years, I have an 1885 edition, there is no record of such

all four books, along with Life Sketches of Paul

became

The Conflict of Ages set, as we know it now.

EGW writing skills along with her editors end up with a great well written product.

With every revision, paranoia grew, and still does. ALLMOST like she did not learn anything over 50 years.

[Stan]

ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?

WHY IS THAT?

[Guest]

Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement.

[Guest]

ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?

No, I haven't. Who are you referring to?

[Overaged]

ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?

WHY IS THAT?

Yes, this is mostly true. Mind you I have actually talked to people who said they have just joined the Adventist Church to "change it from within;" and while some of us can point out a genuine example or two of this, there has developed over the years a whole cult following of this Jesuit paranoia and hub bub.

I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories.

[Gordon1]

Spiritual Gifts and the Spirit of Prophecy volumes are all well-written books.

Stan, who selected The Great Controversy as a title, if not EGW or James?

This was used for the 1858 version (Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1)

[Stan]

I don't remember the details... She wanted it changed to "Triumph of God's Love" this could have been later on when they were going to sell it aggressively to the General Public.

[Gordon1]

Thanks Stan, that's the title of my first SDA book.

The Triumph of God's Love - a paperback version of the 1911 GC.

Purple cover with yellow lettering. A 1971 edition by Pacific Press.

But as I understand it, the 1884 was also a big mover when it was published. Apparently the plates were worn out due to a wide public circulation. I recall 50,000 as the figure.

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quote=Overaged]Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement. /quote]

The quotes I provided as proof of the statement came from you.

quote]if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed"... I am all with that./quote]

Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message? You know that is wrong to do. Lets look at your hawkish comment a little closer then if you insist on going this route.

Who or what was I talking about when I said "If a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" then I am all with that?" Why did you just quote part of what I said? Are you so desperate to prove a lie that you would start slandering your own brethren?

[Stan]

When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.

Even after he finally respond to me, he kept this in his newsletter for months.

Great fundraising scam. He was in Los Angeles, and was either a MD taking law, or a Lawyer going back to school to be an MD.

That is not the only time w winner has tried to expose me as a Jesuit.

I can say this, there are a lot of gullible folks who fall for sensational things.