If You Were a Jesuit....

[John317]

...There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.

I do agree that there are times when Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Steps to Christ, Ministry of Healing or even short chapters of these books would be more fitting to give away. Not all people are going to read the Great Controversy, so in some instances it might be a waste of good material.

As a former tutor in reading & writing at the public library, I can tell you that many, many adults wouldn't even be able to read The Great Controversy, at least with any real comprehension.

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.

[Guest]

Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message?

I left out the words "in such ways". What would be a bad way to give out GC books?

And you never did answer my question about Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts?

And before you protest, and say that you didn't use the word "hearts", I AM assuming that they didn't carry it in their pockets.

[John317]

When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.

And of course you were perfectly willing to sell him the 1911 edition of The Great Controversy.

Sounds like what he did was far worse than what he was accusing you of.

[Overaged]

When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.

Even after he finally respond to me, he kept this in his newsletter for months.

Great fundraising scam. He was in Los Angeles, and was either a MD taking law, or a Lawyer going back to school to be an MD.

That is not the only time w winner has tried to expose me as a Jesuit.

I can say this, there are a lot of gullible folks who fall for sensational things.

Jesuit Wolf Stan

[Guest]

Stan, you should have poked him in the eye with your pencil when you had the chance! LOL

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message?

I left out the words "in such ways". What would be a bad way to give out GC books?

And you never did answer my question about Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts?

And before you protest, and say that you didn't use the word "hearts", I AM assuming that they didn't carry it in their pockets.

You left out more than that and you know it. I have already stated quite clearly what the partial quote you are twisting refers to. You have done the same with the church and taken a small portion of what was written in Publishing Ministry to try to accuse/prove church leaders today of something not even half true.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

...There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.

I do agree that there are times when Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Steps to Christ, Ministry of Healing or even short chapters of these books would be more fitting to give away. Not all people are going to read the Great Controversy, so in some instances it might be a waste of good material.

As a former tutor in reading & writing at the public library, I can tell you that many, many adults wouldn't even be able to read The Great Controversy, at least with any real comprehension.

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.

True, there was a time when she had this burden; but I would draw the line at making that burden apply everywhere, all the time.

[Guest]

You left out more than that and you know it. I have already stated quite clearly what the partial quote you are twisting refers to. You have done the same with the church and taken a small portion of what was written in Publishing Ministry to try to accuse/prove church leaders today of something not even half true.

Still no answer eh? I guess it is easier to jump up and down and call me a liar because I didn't quote the whole stupid page. Who does that anyway? I quoted the part I was addressing, so that there is no confusion over what exactly I am talking about. If you think the rest is so important, why not just incorporate it into your answer, instead of calling me names?

Oh that's right, you don't have an answer. I think we've talked enough.

[Stan]

Tone it down.

[nuff sed]

If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.

I don't think so O/A. Your statement seems to trust in the arm of man, and not God. Here is what God's messenger had to say about it:

The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}

Men who have not had a vital connection with God see no real necessity of the book Great Controversy coming to the people, because they have eyes but see not. This book should be circulated all through this city. {1888 772.1}

[CoAspen]

If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed

Thanks for posting that....have had that thought every time this subject comes up.

(We have met the enemy and he is us!)

[phkrause]

If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed

If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed

Thanks for posting that....have had that thought every time this subject comes up.

(We have met the enemy and he is us!)

Yes indeed. If I were a Jesuit; I would be quite happy (and laughing) at anything in this topic, as long as people didn't start to believe the truth. You are right - a lot of us get too carried away with this.

[Restin]

Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."

In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.

True, there was a time when she had this burden; but I would draw the line at making that burden apply everywhere, all the time.

There is no question that she believed there were times when some of her other books would be best to give to people.

[John317]

The 1884 GC is notably different from the 1911 version now in circulation.

The 1884 is (very roughly) about one-half the word count. (If anyone has the figures, please post).

Ellen White approved of the printing of both the 1884 and 1911 editions. They were intended for different audiences.

I study from both volumes. They both tell the same basic story and contain the same fundamental truths.

[Overaged]

Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."

In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?

You ask a good question; and a fair question.

By "conspiracy theories," I mean the kind that accuse the Adventist Church; and so I would have to still say that she did not write the book for the express purpose of doing this to the Adventist Church.

A lot of people do correctly state that GC reveals Satan's workings; yet what we often find missing from that is Christ's workings. The book is about Christ's workings, first and foremost. "The Triumph Of God's Love" was one of the most fitting titles ever given to this book. It is one of the most Christ-entered books I know of except for the Bible; but not many are willing/able to put this kind of emphasis on it.

[Overaged]

I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world.

[Gordon1]

Ellen White approved of the printing of both the 1884 and 1911 editions. They were intended for different audiences.

Both books were intended for general circulation to the public.

Some try to claim the 1884 GC was 'for the church only', but this contradicts her own wishes that this book should have wide circulation, and that the plates were worn out from a printing of 50,000 copies - and this by 1887 or 1888.

Even by 1892, the total SDA membership, domestic & foreign was only 33,775. (Statistical Report, 1893 GC Bulletin)

So the 1884 GC was obviously intended to reach beyond the church members.

John, if you have a different story, please indicate which were the different audiences you mentioned and your sources for this info.

[John317]

Ellen G. White's Statement

Regarding the 1911 Edition of The Great Controversy

A few days ago I received a copy of the new edition of the book The Great Controversy, recently printed at Mountain View, and also a similar copy printed at Washington. The book pleases me. I have spent many hours looking through its pages, and I see that the publishing houses have done good work.

The book The Great Controversy I appreciate above silver or gold, and I greatly desire that it shall come before the people. While writing the manuscript of The Great Controversy, I was often conscious of the presence of the angels of God. And many times the scenes about which I was writing were presented to me anew in visions of the night, so that they were fresh and vivid in my mind.

Recently it was necessary for this book to be reset, because the electrotype plates were badly worn. It has cost me much to have this done, but I do not complain; for whatever the cost may be, I regard this new edition with great satisfaction.

Yesterday I read what W. C. White has recently written to canvassing agents and responsible men at our publishing houses regarding this latest edition of The Great Controversy, and I think he has presented the matter correctly and well.

When I learned that The Great Controversy must be reset, I determined that we would have everything closely examined, to see if the truths it contained were stated in the very best manner, to convince those not of our faith that the Lord had guided and sustained me in the writing of its pages.

As a result of the thorough examination by our most experienced workers, some changing in the wording has been proposed. These changes I have carefully examined and approved. I am thankful that my life has been spared, and that I have strength and clearness of mind for this and other literary work.

While preparing the book on the Acts of the Apostles, the Lord has kept my mind in perfect peace. This book will soon be ready for publication. When this book is ready for publication, if the Lord sees fit to let me rest, I shall say Amen, and Amen. If the Lord spares my life, I will continue to write, and to bear my testimony in the congregation of the people, as the Lord shall give me strength and guidance.

There is now a great work of soul-saving to be accomplished in the home field. There should be a general awakening on the part of the people, and fresh efforts made to get the light of present truth before the world. In cities and villages and towns, in every possible way, let the light shine forth. Missionaries are needed everywhere, and hundreds of workers from our ranks should be carrying the light of truth to those who know it not. The messengers of truth must be wide awake. The Lord says to them, "Let light go forth in warnings and in opening and explaining the scriptures to the people."

Day by day golden opportunities are opening for our publications to go forth as silent messengers of truth. Let men and women be selected for the canvassing work—not from the floating, careless element, but from those who carry a burden for the extension of the knowledge of truth. Keen foresight and consecrated ability are needed at this time. Let those be selected for the canvassing work who are adapted to this line of work. Let not these feel that they must work hard to obtain a license to preach. The Lord is calling for efficient laborers in many lines of service. If there is one work more important than another, it is that of getting before the people the publications that will explain to them the Word of God.

Parents should consider that their children are constantly beset by temptation. They would receive strength to resist temptation if they would study with deep searching of heart the books containing the light of truth for this time. Parents, do not encourage your children to read literature that will be no help to them spiritually. Do not encourage them to read the story of the life of Christ in the form of a novel. We need to make solid, earnest preparation for the great day of God.

God calls for missionary work to be done in our homes. Years have passed into eternity leaving undone the work of conversion that should have been accomplished in our families. Many of our youth are not being fitted for the work that needs to be done. They are to let the light of truth shine forth in their lives.--Letter 56, 1911. (To F. M. Wilcox, July 25, 1911, from Sanitarium, California.)

Ellen G. White Estate

Washington, D. C.

March, 1962. Retyped March, 1989.

Thanks for posting this. Well worth studying and keeping in mind.

[John317]

So the 1884 GC was obviously intended to reach beyond the church members.

John, if you have a different story, please indicate which were the different audiences you mentioned and your sources for this info.

When Ellen White wrote the 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, she was writing primarily with the SDA church in mind, whereas by 1911 Ellen White's idea of her audience had greatly expanded. That is why she gave consideration to how Catholics and others would react to her language. That is also why she included an Introduction in which she explained things that SDAs were already aware of. I'm not denying that Ellen White had hoped and wanted the 1884 edition to be read by non-SDAs. But the design of the two books and the main emphasis of her thinking in the writing was different in 1884 compared to 1911.

[Restin]

I hear you, Overaged.

I have a copy of "Triumph of God's Love", about 8"x 10", generously illustrated with pen & ink drawings. From the 1950's some time. I cherish it very much...tho wish that artist got a little credit for such excellent work.

[Overaged]

I hear you, Overaged.

I have a copy of "Triumph of God's Love", about 8"x 10", generously illustrated with pen & ink drawings. From the 1950's some time. I cherish it very much...tho wish that artist got a little credit for such excellent work.

True; there are a number of different covers/artwork on the various titles for this book. I imagine it is related in some ways to the author/publisher, and some ideas about it they want to impress upon people in a particular time of place. There is even a gender-neutral version of The Great Controversy out, which I think is a good idea too. It is for certain times and certain people groups to whom this would be important.

[skyblue888]

Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."

In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?

Right on!

In 1896 a testimony was sent to the effect that as a people we had lost our bearings. Isn't it time for us to find our bearings back?

sky :)