Heart - a faculty of the mind?

[Twilight]

We have had many discussions over this point, but I have noted the following recently:

It is never stated once in the bible or SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind, as far as I have been able to discover.

It also never states in the bible or SOP that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind, but only ever states that He dwells in the "heart", again as far as I can discover.

If anyone can find me a statement or text to contradict this, I would be interested?

Mark :-)

[Woody]

not this again ...

[SivartM]

Does it really matter in which organ the Holy Spirit resides? It's not as if He can fall out during surgery.

[Twilight]

Does it really matter in which organ the Holy Spirit resides? It's not as if He can fall out during surgery.

Actually, it does matter.

Why?

You will find those that deny the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart, often confuse that with the writing of the laws on their hearts.

So they think that the "writing of the law" is the same as the "indwelling of the Spirit", not realising these are two seperate experiences.

I am not sure why, but they nearly always end up denying the personal presence of the Holy Spirit within them when they hold it is a "mental thing only".

Hence my point above, to illustrate two new points I have discovered on this as I have continued to examine these points.

Bible and SOP never states the heart is a faculty of the mind.

Bible and SOP never state the Spirit dwells in the mind, only ever in the heart.

As it has been presented on here, that these two points are the truth, I am giving some the opportunity to show that from the SOP and Bible, if they are interested of course.

Those that are not interested (like Redwood and yourself it seems), do not need to read the thread. :-)

I am rather hoping pnat and teresa stumble across it, as this is a view they have expressed.

Mark :-)

[Kevin H]

There is still much study to be done here, but in a lecture at a combat stress conference I attended a few years ago in Camp Pendelton CA I heard a lecture pointing out that the heart is second to the brain for the number of neurons. People who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get. There is not yet enough evidence to say for sure, but enough to have intregued scientists, that the heart may be more than a pump but may play a role in our thinking and emotions.

[Twilight]

There is still much study to be done here, but in a lecture at a combat stress conference I attended a few years ago in Camp Pendelton CA I heard a lecture pointing out that the heart is second to the brain for the number of neurons. People who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get. There is not yet enough evidence to say for sure, but enough to have intregued scientists, that the heart may be more than a pump but may play a role in our thinking and emotions.

There is a lot of new research in the last 30 years that is starting to generate a lot of interest.

Maybe the bible was right all along?

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

There's a huge, vast difference between the heart "playing a role" in our thinking and emotions, and being the center, or seat, of it. And what of the kidneys?

Quote:

The Hebrews often make the reins the seat of the affections, and ascribe to them knowledge, joy, pain, pleasure; hence in Scripture it is said that God searches the heart and tries the reins.(http://www.sovereignword.org/index.php/w...ind-or-emotions)

That the kidneys plays this role is not just "one text," which has been suggested several times, but is actually present in Scripture several dozen times. Do we wish to assert this is literally true? (i.e., affections are a function of the kidneys, as opposed to the brain).

Back to the heart a moment, if it were the case that the chest region heart were the center of our thoughts and emotions, then it shouldn't be the case that "people who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get." Rather than "occasionally" this should be "always" be the case, and losing one's heart should cause one to lose the ability have emotions or thoughts at all.

This question is interesting in raising other questions relating to Bible interpretations viz a viz physiology and cosmology or other sciences. There are a number of areas where the Hebrews do not appear to be as advanced as other cultures. If something is in the Bible, does that mean it is scientifically true? Or is it possible that the Hebrews had some scientific ideas which were incorrect which made there way into Scripture, but don't adversely impact our ability to do God's will? (so that God permitted this to happen)

[Guest]

Mark, here is my case:

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....

To say this is referring to the blood pump, is to say that you don't think with your mind. And every one knows, pretty much, that the thoughts that you keep in your mind, or the way you think, makes you who you are. Just like the text says.

Mark, I'm sure you will say that because EGW seems to make a distinction, when she says things like "mind and heart" that she is talking about two different things. I submit to you that she is not. Can we agree that the mind and the brain are one and the same?

If so, then look at this:

We are to keep mind and brain open to the truths of God's word. {FE 548}

If you still stick to your line of reasoning, then I submit to you that there are three different places, and not just two. Look at this:

Let Jesus take possession of your mind, your heart, and your affections; {AH 297}

I believe all three of those are in the same place. If they are separate, then, like pnat says, every time someone got a heart transplant, their entire way of thinking would change. And they would not be the same person, because, as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

[oldsailor29]

has anyone mentioned the Freudian divisions of the mind, ID, EGO, & SUPER EGO?

[SivartM]

I think it's interesting that no matter how we define it, or what we mean by it, whether literal or figurative, we all know in our hearts what our "heart" is.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There is still much study to be done here, but in a lecture at a combat stress conference I attended a few years ago in Camp Pendelton CA I heard a lecture pointing out that the heart is second to the brain for the number of neurons. People who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get. There is not yet enough evidence to say for sure, but enough to have intregued scientists, that the heart may be more than a pump but may play a role in our thinking and emotions.

My cousin has had a heart transplant for 20 years now. He did not pick up new memories or new characteristics that were not evident in him before the transplant. He was also in the military prior to the transplant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Through the ministry of the angels the Holy Spirit is enabled to work upon the mind and heart of the human agent and draw him to Christ.

EGWhite, That I May Know Him (1964), page 57, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: The Holy Spirit Our Helper

[Twilight]

There's a huge, vast difference between the heart "playing a role" in our thinking and emotions, and being the center, or seat, of it. And what of the kidneys?

Quote:

The Hebrews often make the reins the seat of the affections, and ascribe to them knowledge, joy, pain, pleasure; hence in Scripture it is said that God searches the heart and tries the reins.(http://www.sovereignword.org/index.php/w...ind-or-emotions)

That the kidneys plays this role is not just "one text," which has been suggested several times, but is actually present in Scripture several dozen times. Do we wish to assert this is literally true? (i.e., affections are a function of the kidneys, as opposed to the brain).

Back to the heart a moment, if it were the case that the chest region heart were the center of our thoughts and emotions, then it shouldn't be the case that "people who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get." Rather than "occasionally" this should be "always" be the case, and losing one's heart should cause one to lose the ability have emotions or thoughts at all.

This question is interesting in raising other questions relating to Bible interpretations viz a viz physiology and cosmology or other sciences. There are a number of areas where the Hebrews do not appear to be as advanced as other cultures. If something is in the Bible, does that mean it is scientifically true? Or is it possible that the Hebrews had some scientific ideas which were incorrect which made there way into Scripture, but don't adversely impact our ability to do God's will? (so that God permitted this to happen)

Hi Pnat :-)

You did not deal with the OP at all...

Does it state anywhere in the SOP or Bible that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind?

Or does it only ever mention Him abiding in the "heart"?

Does it state anywhere in the Bible or SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind?

Because if these two fundamental assumptions are not present, the whole case for your position has no basis in scripture or SOP.

---------------------

So to request again:

Does it ever state that the Holy Spirit dwells in the "mind" in the Bible or SOP?

Does it ever state that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind in the Bible or SOP?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Mark, here is my case:

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he....

To say this is referring to the blood pump, is to say that you don't think with your mind. And every one knows, pretty much, that the thoughts that you keep in your mind, or the way you think, makes you who you are. Just like the text says.

Mark, I'm sure you will say that because EGW seems to make a distinction, when she says things like "mind and heart" that she is talking about two different things. I submit to you that she is not. Can we agree that the mind and the brain are one and the same?

If so, then look at this:

We are to keep mind and brain open to the truths of God's word. {FE 548}

If you still stick to your line of reasoning, then I submit to you that there are three different places, and not just two. Look at this:

Let Jesus take possession of your mind, your heart, and your affections; {AH 297}

I believe all three of those are in the same place. If they are separate, then, like pnat says, every time someone got a heart transplant, their entire way of thinking would change. And they would not be the same person, because, as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.

Please note the points in my Op Richard, they are fundamental points.

To assume the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind is not supported from a bible or SOP position.

To assume that heart means "faculty of the mind" is not supported from a bible or SOP position as far as I am aware.

-------------------

But to respond to your point.

Jesus spoke of the "thoughts" arising from the heart.

In other words, we have feelings, desires, motives in the "heart", these motives etc are the driving force behind our "thoughts" which are in our mind.

So we experience an emotion first, then it raises a corresponding thought (it can go the other way too).

So simply put.

Emotions etc, drive our thoughts, because they are the "source" of our desires, motives etc.

That does not mean you do not think in your "mind", but it does mean the thoughts were directed by the "motives".

Jesus clearly taught this, if you do a search on the word "heart" in the gospels and keep this in mind, you may see what I am saying.

It is our "motives" that drive our "thoughts", it is our "heart" that drives our "mind".

This is why we need a "heart" conversion, as we need to change the "source" of our being.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I think it's interesting that no matter how we define it, or what we mean by it, whether literal or figurative, we all know in our hearts what our "heart" is.

Can you expand on this a little more Sivart?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

There is still much study to be done here, but in a lecture at a combat stress conference I attended a few years ago in Camp Pendelton CA I heard a lecture pointing out that the heart is second to the brain for the number of neurons. People who have had heart transplants have occasionally picked up charactistics and even memories of the person who's heart they get. There is not yet enough evidence to say for sure, but enough to have intregued scientists, that the heart may be more than a pump but may play a role in our thinking and emotions.

My cousin has had a heart transplant for 20 years now. He did not pick up new memories or new characteristics that were not evident in him before the transplant. He was also in the military prior to the transplant.

Some of the studies on this that I have read on the Internet, raise the point that it is isolated cases that show the "heart memories".

I personally wonder if the heart is not connected back into the nervous system in most instances.

It is know that the heart does not "need" to reconnect, as it has its own neural network which governs it, apparently, this is why heart transplants are even possible. :-)

Which I know brings up all sorts of questions...

Mark

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I think it's interesting that no matter how we define it, or what we mean by it, whether literal or figurative, we all know in our hearts what our "heart" is.

Can you expand on this a little more Sivart?

Oh. I thought he was very clear. What more is there to say on this topic that seems to go on for eternity.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Through the ministry of the angels the Holy Spirit is enabled to work upon the mind and heart of the human agent and draw him to Christ.

EGWhite, That I May Know Him (1964), page 57, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: The Holy Spirit Our Helper

But is that the same as "dwelling" in the mind?

That I would say is talking about the "writing of the law" on our minds, which is the action the Holy Spirit perfoms.

When the bible and SOP describe "dwelling", it only ever mentions the body or heart as far as I can see.

Here is a sample:

He first dwells in the heart as the Spirit of truth, and thus He becomes the Comforter.

[Twilight]

Some further points, where I have bolded the important points, please note the term "human heart".

The heart , the seat of the affections, must be transformed; the moral nature must be renewed by grace. {ST, May 6, 1886 par. 8}

The church is to cooperate with God by uprooting selfishness from the human heart , placing in its stead the benevolence that was in man's heart in his original state of perfection. --Letter 134, 1902. {WM 14. 1} ...

He instigates theories of unbelief, and stirs up the human heart to war against the word of God.

The heart is the citadel of the being. Fathers and mothers, by faithful instruction guard the hearts of your children against evil. Forget not the subtlety of the enemy, who seeks to gain entrance into the heart, that he may take possession of the whole being. Once firmly seated on the throne of the heart, no human power can cast him from his stronghold. {18MR 119.5}

The Heart-searcher knows the cruel power of the enemy and the weakness of the human heart. He knows how untiringly the enemy seeks to gain control of children and youth, and how often he is aided in his efforts by the neglect of fathers and mothers. Oh, how many families there are where the children, their temporal needs abundantly supplied, are allowed to grow up without a knowledge of the Saviour. Their spiritual needs are neglected. God is not in the home. His place is filled by the enemy. {18MR 120.1}

Among all who walk in harmony with God, there must be perfect freedom from all the natural passions of the human heart. All who give themselves to the service of Christ will follow the example of Christ, and will be perfect overcomers. When self ceases to wrestle for the supremacy, and the heart is worked by the Holy Spirit, the soul lies perfectly passive--and then the image of God is mirrored upon the heart, the soul is in accord with the mind of God, and human identity is lost in Jesus Christ. Then all temporal and spiritual transactions which need to be done will be done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, without worry, perplexity, murmuring, faultfinding, accusation, or wrathful speeches, which, among those who have not surrendered self to God, are often not restrained but pour forth from the lips in any place and under any circumstance when selfish ideas are interfered with. {9MR 324.1}

Who presides over and controls the selfish heart? Could the curtain be withdrawn, that passionate, professed believer would see a legion of satanic angels controlling him with their own spirit. He is standing in the presence of holy angels and in the presence of Satan's hellish army, and his conduct shows that he has no right to the name of "Christian." He professes much, but brings forth thorn-berries. Self is the mainspring of action. One such exhibition before the people is sufficient to testify-- How "can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3)--Manuscript 176, 1898, pp. 4,5. ("Testimony to the Members of the Prahran Church," April 4, 1898.)

I tell you plainly, brethren, unless the ministers are converted, our churches will be sickly and ready to die. God's power alone can change the human heart and imbue it with the love of Christ. God's power alone can correct and subdue the passions and sanctify the affections. All who minister, must humble their proud hearts, submit their will to the will of God, and hide their life with Christ in God. {SpTA01a 1.3}

Real religion has its seat in the heart; and as it is an abiding principle there, it works outwardly, molding the external conduct, until the entire being is conformed to the image of Christ; even the thoughts are brought into subjection to the mind of Christ. If the abiding principle is not in the heart, the mind will be molded after the deceiving similitude of Satan's mind, working his will to the ruin of the soul. The atmosphere which surrounds such souls is deleterious to all around them, whether believers or unbelievers.-- Lt 8, 1891. {2MCP 802.1}

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Can you expand on this a little more Sivart?

Oh. I thought he was very clear. What more is there to say on this topic that seems to go on for eternity.

That is a very negative contribution Redwood.

If you do not want to engage on the subject, you do not have to read it or even post on this thread.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I think it's interesting that no matter how we define it, or what we mean by it, whether literal or figurative, we all know in our hearts what our "heart" is.

Can you expand on this a little more Sivart?

What I mean is that we all use phrases like "follow your heart" and "what is your heart telling you?" and "Jesus is in my heart", and whether we mean "heart" as a blood-pumping organ or a figurative expression, the word still means the same to all of us. We don't have to try to figure out what someone means when they talk about "following their heart".

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Our High Calling (1961), page 106, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: Cultivating God's Garden

Man, fallen man, may be transformed by the renewing of the mind, so that he can "prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." How does he prove this? By the Holy Spirit taking possession of his mind, spirit, heart, and character.

[Woody]

Let me see ...

Saying "What more is there to say on this topic"

Or

Telling someone they are going to Hell.

Hmmm. Which one is negative?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

baiting

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

You did not deal with the OP at all...

Been busy. I saw what Kevin wrote, so responded to that.

Quote:

Does it state anywhere in the SOP or Bible that the Holy Spirit dwells in the mind?

Given that the Holy Spirit means what I think it does, there would be no reason for her too. Given your view, one might expect that, however. This is because I believe the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart is not literal, but is dealing with the process of the Holy Spirit's communicating with a person. The following tells us that all communication from God takes place in the head reason:

Quote:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate to man and affect his inmost life.(CG 446)

So given my view is correct, one wouldn't expect the SOP speak of the Holy Spirit's dwelling in the heart, AND dwelling in the mind, because His dwelling in the heart *means* His influence upon the mind. However, if your idea that this is a literal thing were true, there would be no reason why the Holy Spirit couldn't dwell in the heart, or brain, or kidneys, and one would expect each of these expressions.

Quote:

Or does it only ever mention Him abiding in the "heart"?

Does it state anywhere in the Bible or SOP that the "heart" is a faculty of the mind?

When I first explained this, I explained the heart as the seat of the emotions and affections of man, where he does his deepest, inmost thinking. Something like that. And you said something very similar. As far as I'm aware, this is not what we're disagreeing regarding. That is, the function of the heart we're not disagreeing with, in regards to what the Scripture says about it. What we're disagreeing about is the region of the human where these activities takes place. I believe it's in the head region (not excluding the possibility of some percentage of this happening in the literal heart, or even the kidneys, but primarily it's in the head region, where thought takes place), whereas you believe it's in the chest regions, and possibly abdominal region, assuming you take the kidney statements as literally as you do the heart ones.

Quote:

Because if these two fundamental assumptions are not present, the whole case for your position has no basis in scripture or SOP.

I think it's the reverse. Again, if your view were true, we'd expect her to speak of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the kidneys, and the mind (or perhaps brain would be better, as this would be a more literal idea).