Members abelisle Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 If you found out today, without a doubt that there was no God. How would your behavior change, your personality, your relationships et al? When I was teaching and we covered existential literature, I would ask my students if there were no law against murder, would murder still be wrong? Incidentally, this question stems from a study of Camus' The Stranger Are some of us being "good" simply because we're working toward an eternal reward? I realize this hints at Greek philosophy and even into the modern realm with the way atheists counter Christian apologetics. This is all for now Alex Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2010 I have asked myself this same question, only with a different ending to it. I've seen many people turn into completely different people when presented with certain circumstances. Morals can become quite hazy, even for formerly stalwart people. Even pastors. But then, we've all heard stories and rumours. The endings for alex's question might be: - if you were convinced God wasn't looking - if you are a victim of some evil in your past - if you found yourself single - if your earthly circumstances are currently hopeless - if you have almost superhuman opposition, especially coming from within your own home These are difficult trials, indeed! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Very interesting thoughts Gail. pk Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 There are some really fine, caring athiests out there that don't murder or steal, etc. To them, this would be a moot question. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 There isn't a God anyway. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Yeah, but there IS a Godhead with three Gods in one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abelisle Posted January 19, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 I'm perplexed. Why hasn't anyone attempted to answer the question I proposed for themselves? Most of you are speaking either about the question or around the question or on a tangent from the question. Outside of your religious beliefs and spiritual identity, what motivates you to do good? It doesn't matter what atheists think - what do you think? or whether this question should be modified to fit one's personal history. The very concept of what "good" begs the question: "If no God, is there still the "good?" I've noticed a habit some posters have of immediately referencing issues and questions to their own personal histories and/or agendas. I'm not sure where this is coming from but if you were in my classroom, I would redirect your responses. Maybe the question can't be answered? Maybe its very essence is inscrutable or ineffable but if we simply give up trying to struggle with it, there might come a time when we are called to task to answer why we believe and act as we do. Will we be able to respond? I'm sorry if I might have ruffled some feathers but as a teacher, I've spent my life attempting to get people to think about hard questions - the ones that make us uncomfortable and even may push us outside of our comfort zones. Alex (just trying to be as helpful as I can) Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2010 Oh, you mean we are in school? Okay- I have no idea and wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2010 Whqt I mean is what I wish for myself and what happens in life are not always the same thing. Morality without God... means that we have to leave morality to our finite minds' ideas of it. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 And that is existentialism. Not a good topic for the forum. IMHO Methinks the originator of this thread has a specific agenda in mind. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I don't know how I would be different, because right now, I can't wrap my mind around the fact that there is no GOD. I would like to think though, that I would basically be the same person. In my youth I was intentionally mean, and I really hated the feelings that stemmed from that, so I now strive not to cause pain to anyone, even though I know that I do from time to time it is completely unintentional. In Sabbath School a week or so ago, we were talking along these lines, and a young person spoke up and said that the only reason they were "good" was because they didn't want to go to hell. I felt really bad for them, because in this line of thinking they also miss out on the goodness of GOD. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abelisle Posted January 19, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 As the originator of this thread, I can say categorically that I did have an agenda in mind. My agenda is to try to encourage posters to respond to ideas through a critical lens that does not first and foremost reflect personal histories and/or personal theological biases. Shoot me. I'm guilty. Alex Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2010 Hey- I worked hard for that bias!! :) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 I don't think it's wise to use existentialism as a basis for your questions. It's humanism at its best. Your question certainly DOES ask for reflection of personal histories in order to answer what you asked. Oh, whatever. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 19, 2010 My behavior and values wouldn't change, but I know that is because of the Holy Spirit in my life. I'm sure that if I hadn't been converted to Christ, I would eventually have committed murder. But because of prayers in my behalf, the Holy Spirit led me to choose Christ, and after that God changed me. So I am what I am today because of Christ. Without Him, I'm certain I would have either been killed by now or been put in prison. You ask whether it is wrong to murder if there is no God. Not in any absolute sense but only because it is against the laws of society, and people are punished for violating society's norms. Being constituted as they are, humans also usually punish themselves-- though not necessarily consciously-- because of their "wrong acts." But without God, there would be no violation of a universal moral law since all moral law proceeds from God. If God does not exist, then everything is permitted as far as the universe is concerned. Apart from God's existence, the universe is completely indifferent to morality. Morality is how things should be-- the rule of the ideal-- questions of right and wrong, whereas the universe of itself alone deals only with power and what actually is. It declares that all that is, is right. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outta Here Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 If you found out today, without a doubt that there was no God. How would your behavior change, your personality, your relationships et al? The only way to answer a question about "me" is through "my history and personal theologies". First, I'd want to know how I found out. Is this a reliable discovery, or is it just someone else's opinion? The only reliable source I find for my personal beliefs has to come from within my realm of personal experiences. Assuming I do come to the conclusion that God does not exist, I don't believe my personality would change in the least. My relationships would not change save my relationship with God. My behavior also would not change save my going to church (and church-like settings) and speaking to others about God. I do not behave "morally" to please God. I behave "morally" because intrinsically, I feel it is the right thing to do. My own moral code is one based on respect for my fellow human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 19, 2010 Administrators Share Posted January 19, 2010 MODERATOR POST - just tagging on to the end... People of middle earth, please pay attention to the one rule that rings loud and clear here in the middle earth, otherwise known as the Original Thoughts forum. NO quotes, please! It is not that hard to understand, I should think. I am seeing a significant disregard of late for this rule here. I know many of you arrive at these topics, as do I, via the "Active Topics" option in the menu bar and so may bypass the statement of the rule both in the main Forums menu and at the top of the topics list of the Original Thoughts forum. BUT that excuse is most useful for newbies. Most of you who seem consistently doing the quote box routine here have been around long enough to know the rule by now. And the "Active Topics" menu option does clearly identify the specific forum in which each listed topic is found. Please pay attention to that. And for the record, this is a great topic for this forum, Alex. I like it and will dig into the old brain for a few thoughts later when I have more time. OK. Back to your regularly scheduled programing... Carry on! Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Leon Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I think every one knows instinctively a difference between good and bad. with that, we we are naturally carnal so our thoughts will be self centered all the time. then again, i dont know if this would be a question if God wasnt. We would be animals and acting as such. all things would be for self. and atheist, regardless what they believe or lack thereof, it is not by their own power that they dont murder and steal. plus they secretly believe so they're nice and obedient just to be on the safe side. my aunt once said that if you dont believe you might as well do every thing that you want to do. screw the law and otherwise because you'll only live once. its the fact that we can't prove His existence that keeps alot of us under foot. besides, what shame is it in hoping for better? i accept the promise and i personally want it in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 Atheists can be moral, law-abiding people without believing in God. Sheesh.. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Let's not even begin to believe we could do any good thing without God. Atheists who live moral lives do so because, even though they don't officially believe in God, they see the beauty of His law and abide by it. Unless we are ready to trash the Bible right now all we need to do is read the history of how wicked men become when they throw off the constraint of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 the OP of this thread was about having NO GOD EXISTING. BTW, Satan can do good things too. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Yes, I'm describing a scenario of no God existing. You could kiss everything you love goodbye. The thoughts of men and women would be only evil continually, since that's where they got to WITH GOD EXISTING. Unless, of course, you believe God causes evil. If you believed that you could convince yourself that we are more righteous than God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 There would not necessarily be evil everywhere if there was no God. That assumes that there is also no Satan. I believe mankind is inherently decent and would make his own laws and have morals similar to what we have with God. BTW, you are not supposed to quote in this thread, as per moderator instructions. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Great point Pam, I never thought of that, that if there was no GOD then there wouldn't be a satan either. Quote For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Well, good grief. There wouldn't be a you or a me, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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