A Tribute to our Military

[phkrause]

Here's a nice tribute to our Military:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-0mdEg0U4&feature=related

Check it out

pk

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Good one, pk. Thanks for sharing it.

[phkrause]

Good one, pk. Thanks for sharing it.

You welcome rudywoofs

pk

[phkrause]

PKRAUSE

THAT was great thank you

dgrimm60

Thanks dgrimm

pk

[abelisle]

That was nice Pete.

Alex

[phkrause]

That was nice Pete.

Alex

Thanks Alex

pk

[Avinoam]

Why would you post this on a Christian forum is beyond me. Those 'heroes' have invaded countries, occupied, and murdered on a large scale. Those 'heroes' bombed my country for 3 months in order to support terrorists and the same 'heroes' did nothing when Christian churches and monasteries were burned down and destroyed. These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations.

[bonnie]

Why would you post this on a Christian forum is beyond me. Those 'heroes' have invaded countries, occupied, and murdered on a large scale. Those 'heroes' bombed my country for 3 months in order to support terrorists and the same 'heroes' did nothing when Christian churches and monasteries were burned down and destroyed. These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations.

Maybe a little more information would be helpful.

[Avinoam]

That's just standard history. Bombing of Serbia, an orthodox Christian country, in 1999. And then basically standing by as Albanian thugs burned down churches and blew up Christian monasteries, built almost a thousand years ago. All in the name of democracy, I guess. Who knows, maybe they even said a prayer to Jesus Christ, as in that video, before they dropped bombs on hospitals, TV stations, schools, and other civilan objects, killing women and children.

[bonnie]

That's just standard history. Bombing of Serbia, an orthodox Christian country, in 1999. And then basically standing by as Albanian thugs burned down churches and blew up Christian monasteries, built almost a thousand years ago. All in the name of democracy, I guess. Who knows, maybe they even said a prayer to Jesus Christ, as in that video, before they dropped bombs on hospitals, TV stations, schools, and other civilan objects, killing women and children.

Thanks for the reminder. Was there a little more to this than the americans just deciding one morning to bomb Serbia. Can you provide something that gives an indication the americans mapped out the location of hospitals,schools women and children and then proceeded to bomb them?

A little history on the Serbs might be nice as I recollect. Have to check back to make sure tho

[Avinoam]

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

That's just standard history. Bombing of Serbia, an orthodox Christian country, in 1999. And then basically standing by as Albanian thugs burned down churches and blew up Christian monasteries, built almost a thousand years ago. All in the name of democracy, I guess. Who knows, maybe they even said a prayer to Jesus Christ, as in that video, before they dropped bombs on hospitals, TV stations, schools, and other civilan objects, killing women and children.

Thanks for the reminder. Was there a little more to this than the americans just deciding one morning to bomb Serbia. Can you provide something that gives an indication the americans mapped out the location of hospitals,schools women and children and then proceeded to bomb them?

A little history on the Serbs might be nice as I recollect. Have to check back to make sure tho

This is going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossadegh or the overthrow of Qassim. Check what the Americans did in Central and South America. Or in Asia. One murderous campaign after another. All in the name of freedom.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossadegh or the overthrow of Qassim. Check what the Americans did in Central and South America. Or in Asia. One murderous campaign after another. All in the name of freedom.

You're full of poppycock. Get a laxative. And some Valium.

[bonnie]

Quote:

This is going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossadegh or the overthrow of Qassim. Check what the Americans did in Central and South America. Or in Asia. One murderous campaign after another. All in the name of freedom.

No,it shouldn't be to deep into politics.You were the one that with the first post started making accusations.If you did not want to discuss or condemn the US why bring this up in the manner you did.

In between posts I did check out a few sites. Not all the facts I am sure but it seems the Serbian's were not exactly pious altar boys

[Nan]

[quote=Avinoam

This is going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossadegh or the overthrow of Qassim. Check what the Americans did in Central and South America. Or in Asia. One murderous campaign after another. All in the name of freedom.

I am just remembering some benign regimes like Pol Pot in Cambodia......

[Overaged]

Although I would have to say I see nothing "nice" about all those weapons of war; I would also have to say it is pointless to single out the US military like this. Many other governments and their military are just as guilty - but then the equation changes when we start to look at all the military and government personel who are decent honest people and are really trying to make a difference.

[Avinoam]

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

This is going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossadegh or the overthrow of Qassim. Check what the Americans did in Central and South America. Or in Asia. One murderous campaign after another. All in the name of freedom.

You're full of poppycock. Get a laxative. And some Valium.

Thank you for your kind words.

Just to clarify something: My Adventist family had to hide in bunkers for three months in order to survive bombs dropped from U.S. planes, day and night they lived in fear and witnessed the destruction of their city by the American forces, and now there is an American Adventist on this forum posting a video which glorifies that same military machine, and I am supposed to abstain from commenting on this?

[phkrause]

Yes and that same Adventist who's father spent 2 years in german labor camps and than 5 years in concentration camps is very thankful and greatful for those horrible americans that bombed all the cities in germany to free those Jews who were being tortured by the Nazi's. 6 million jews and many others were killed by Nazi's the American soldiers (HEROES in my book) saved europe and probably the rest of the world because no one else wanted to. I've never said that I agree with all the things the USA, its government has done is on the up and up. But this men and women that go into harms way, from any country that helps to keep the peace, they should be praised for risking there lives for all not just the USA. And if we really want to get down to it, my grandfather who was a soldier for the german army was captured by the russian's and given over to the Yugoslavinians to be held as a pow, was brutely tortured by them. My mom said that after the war he came home with broken bones, etc. He said that compared to the yugoslavains the russians were angels. Why don't we go deeper into the history if you would like?????

pk

[bonnie]

Quote:

Thank you for your kind words.

Just to clarify something: My Adventist family had to hide in bunkers for three months in order to survive bombs dropped from U.S. planes, day and night they lived in fear and witnessed the destruction of their city by the American forces, and now there is an American Adventist on this forum posting a video which glorifies that same military machine, and I am supposed to abstain from commenting on this?

You make accusations and then say it is to ......going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossad

Buildings get blown to pieces and innocent people die in any war.

It sounds like you believe that the americans just woke up one morning and decided your country was a good place to lob a few bombs and make innocent adventists hide in bunkers.

From accounts that have been published sounds like there was a little more to it than that.

Instead of trying to include other area's of war,tell us about yours.

Why was your country under attack?

[Avinoam]

Yes and that same Adventist who's father spent 2 years in german labor camps and than 5 years in concentration camps is very thankful and greatful for those horrible americans that bombed all the cities in germany to free those Jews who were being tortured by the Nazi's. 6 million jews and many others were killed by Nazi's the American soldiers (HEROES in my book) saved europe and probably the rest of the world because no one else wanted to. I've never said that I agree with all the things the USA, its government has done is on the up and up. But this men and women that go into harms way, from any country that helps to keep the peace, they should be praised for risking there lives for all not just the USA. And if we really want to get down to it, my grandfather who was a soldier for the german army was captured by the russian's and given over to the Yugoslavinians to be held as a pow, was brutely tortured by them. My mom said that after the war he came home with broken bones, etc. He said that compared to the yugoslavains the russians were angels. Why don't we go deeper into the history if you would like?????

pk

Well it's not true that the Americans 'saved the world because no one else wanted'. Are you not forgetting the contribution of the Russians? Or the resistance of the individual conutries which were occupied by Germany? Apart from that no one is desputing the American contribution and many in Europe are thankful.

So your grandfather fought for Hitler's Germany, for the Nazis who brought destruction over whole Europe, and considering that 1.7 million Yugoslavs died in WW2 he in fact complains about bad treatment and broken bones? Am I understanding you correctly?

[Avinoam]

Quote:

Thank you for your kind words.

Just to clarify something: My Adventist family had to hide in bunkers for three months in order to survive bombs dropped from U.S. planes, day and night they lived in fear and witnessed the destruction of their city by the American forces, and now there is an American Adventist on this forum posting a video which glorifies that same military machine, and I am supposed to abstain from commenting on this?

You make accusations and then say it is to ......going too deep into politcs. Check anything on American foregin policy after 1945 and you will find out that there is no other regime as murderous and criminal as the U.S. government. Check on the overthrow of Mossad

Buildings get blown to pieces and innocent people die in any war.

It sounds like you believe that the americans just woke up one morning and decided your country was a good place to lob a few bombs and make innocent adventists hide in bunkers.

From accounts that have been published sounds like there was a little more to it than that.

Instead of trying to include other area's of war,tell us about yours.

Why was your country under attack?

No, it doesnt sound like the Americans woke up one morning and decided today we're gonna bomb this and that country. I am saying this is typical American foreign policy since 1945. It is a clearly developed strategy. Each US administration has developed its doctrines which regulate American interests and these interests are being pursued no matter the cost.

I'm not sure if I would have enough time and space to elaborate on the reasons why my country was under attack, actually I would have thought that you as an American (I assume you are) would be sufficiently informed to know and understand what your country is doing. It seems, however, that this is not the case.

You said "Buildings get blown to pieces and innocent people die in any war." Would you apply the same reasoning for the 9/11 attacks as well?

[bonnie]

Quote:

You said "Buildings get blown to pieces and innocent people die in any war." Would you apply the same reasoning for the 9/11 attacks as well?

I did say war,not a mindless attack designed to kill as many innocent people as possible thru cowardly means. These people had no where to hide,no warning.Babies and women as well as men were killed for the sole purpose of instilling as much terror and bloodshed as possible.

Unable to fight military might,they chose innocent people.Many women and babies

[bonnie]

Quote:

I'm not sure if I would have enough time and space to elaborate on the reasons why my country was under attack, actually I would have thought that you as an American (I assume you are) would be sufficiently informed to know and understand what your country is doing. It seems, however, that this is not the case.

Just take a stab at the high lights. I am an american,proud that I am and value those in the military.

Depends on what you call informed.Do I remember every detail of every conflict,NO.Then I go look it up.Interesting,you usually learn more information than you atarted with.

Could the "Butcher of The Balkans" have had anything to do with the events you are describing?

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/m/slobodan_milosevic/index.html

Slobodan Milosevic

Paul Vreeker/Associated Press

Slobodan Milosevic, the Communist leader whose embrace of Serbian nationalism set off almost a decade of Balkan warfare, was found dead early Saturday in his cell at the United Nations detention center in The Hague on March 11, 2006.

Death came as Mr. Milosevic's four-year trial for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide was drawing to a close with a verdict expected later that year.

He was the first former head of state to answer charges of such crimes and his was the longest war-crimes trial of modern times, delayed by Mr. Milosevic's frequent bouts of illness related to high blood pressure and a bad heart.

Read More...

The complex indictment covered the events of three wars — in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo — and almost a decade of bloodshed and vengeance that killed more than 200,000 people and earned Mr. Milosevic the sobriquet "Butcher of the Balkans."

As he rose and then clung to power by resurrecting old nationalist grudges and inciting dreams of a Greater Serbia, Mr. Milosevic became the prime engineer of wars that pitted his fellow Serbs against the Slovenes, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Albanians of Kosovo and ultimately the combined forces of the entire NATO alliance.

By stirring a dormant but incendiary nationalism, he succeeded in rallying support for himself in the late 1980's, at a time when Communism in the rest of Eastern Europe was in its death throes.

Exercising carefully calculated control of the media and operating ruthlessly behind the scenes, Mr. Milosevic established a cult of personality that struck fear into non-Serbs in Yugoslavia.

The consequences of Mr. Milosevic's rule for Serbia were devastating. His final confrontation, with the Albanians of Kosovo, provoked a NATO bombing assault in the spring of 1999 that destroyed government buildings, factories and much infrastructure in a land already ruined by years of international sanctions intended to punish Mr. Milosevic for instigating earlier wars.

[bonnie]

Sounds like a real fun group. There is more including crimes against serbs in the accounts but sounds like Serbs don't have clean hands either

Ethnic Cleansing.....

During the 1990s the term was used extensively by the media in the former Yugoslavia in relation to the wars in Croatia and Bosnia, since sides in conflict used widespread and systematic acts of persecution (murder, violence, detention, intimidation) against opposing populations creating a such coercive atmosphere, atmosphere of fear, that targeted population had no option but to flee or to be deported by force. These acts were carried out from at least August 1991. Croats and Bosniaks were expelled by Serbs, Serbs and Bosniaks by Croats, and even Bosniaks expelled the rival populations from their domains. The ethnic cleansing culminated in 1995 when entire population of Krajina was cleansed of its ancient population.

Mile Budak in WWII coined Croatian plan for purging Croatia of Serbs in genocide and ethnic cleansing, - by killing one third, expelling one third and assimilating the rest.

A Carnegie Endowment report on the Balkan Wars in 1914 points out that village-burning and ethnic cleansing have traditionally accompanied Balkan wars, regardless of ethnicities involved. In probably the earliest attestation of the term, Vuk Karadžić makes use of the word cleanse to describe what happened to the Turks in Belgrade when the city was captured by the Karadjordje's forces in 1806.[11] Konstantin Nenadović wrote in his biography of famous Serbian leader published in 1883 that after the fighting "the Serbs, in their bitterness (after 500 years of Turkish occupation), slit the throats of the Turks everywhere they found them, sparing neither the wounded, nor the woman, nor the Turkish children".[12]

Later attestation of the term cleansing can be found on 16 May 1941, during the Second World War, by one Viktor Gutić, a commander in the Croatian extremist faction, the Ustaše: Every Croat who today solicits for our enemies not only is not a good Croat, but also an opponent and disrupter of the prearranged, well-calculated plan for cleansing our Croatia of unwanted elements [...].[13][unreliable source?] The Ustaše carried out large-scale ethnic cleansing and genocide of Serbs in Croatia during the Second World War and sometimes used the term "cleansing" to describe it.[14].

Some time later, on 30 June 1941, Stevan Moljević, a lawyer from Banja Luka who was an ideologue of the Chetniks, published a booklet with the title On Our State and Its Borders. Moljević assessed the circumstances in the following manner: "One must take the opportunity of the war conditions and at a suitable moment take hold of the territory marked on the map, cleanse [očistiti] it before anybody notices and with strong battalions occupy the key places (...) and the territory surrounding these cities, freed of non-Serb elements. The guilty must be promptly punished and the others deported - the Croats to (significantly amputated) Croatia, the Muslims to Turkey or perhaps Albania - while the vacated territory is settled with Serb refugees now located in Serbia.[1

[Avinoam]

Bonnie,

you just successfully demonstrated your absolute lack of knowledge on this subject . You knew very little to nothing about the Balkan Wars and then you decided to quote a New York Times article in a vain hope its summary will adequately describe and justify the American act of aggression against a sovereign state. And here is how I know that you know nothing about it, because if you knew you would have not believed the very first sentence of the article you posted. In what sense was Milosevic a communist leader? What exactly does Serbian nationalism mean and how is it expressed? How does it relate to the emergence of other ethnic nationalisms in the area? What are the political, economical, and historical roots of the conflict and what were the mechanisms that set it off?

I don’t even want to go into the rest of the article because it is so poor. If I would have submitted this article as an essay in my university, I would have failed. There is a huge difference between sensationalist media and serious scholarship. The sensationalist media are designed in such way to quickly form a public opinion without going deep into the matter. To your New York Times article I respond by suggesting to read “Yugoslavia Unraveled: Sovereignty, Self-Determination, Intervention” published by Lexington Books and edited by a professor of international affairs. And to find out more about American foreign policy I suggest “Strategic Interests in the Middle East” by Covarrubias, “The Middle East and the United States” by David Lesch, or “The Ambiguous Legacy: U.S. Foreign Relations in the “American Century” by Hogan. This is proper academic literature and, in my opinion, it is the only way to learn and understand.

What is interesting to me, based on our short dialogue, is how you are prepared to defend something you know very little about. And I’m not having a go at you personally but I have experienced the same phenomenon in discussions with other Americans. There is an incredible lack of critical thinking and I was surprised that it is even prevalent amongst Adventists- because we are the one who study and examine and we don’t simply follow the masses. This is why we are keeping the Sabbath and not the Sunday, because we think and reason for ourselves. The overwhelming majority in the scientific world stands for the theory of evolution (cosmological, chemical, human evolution etc.), yet we don’t believe everything the say in the media, we study and find out for ourselves. But when it comes down to politics, you just swallow whatever your government tells you and believe whatever the media throws at you.

[Stan]

It was another war brought to us by those nice folks at CNN and kindly paid for by the American Taxpayers.

I spent a little time there in 92 or 93.

Just my opinion.