Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 30, 2010 Members Share Posted January 30, 2010 Originally Posted By: Avinoam These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations. I am not so sure that they were "rude remarks." I can certainly understand how you would find some of it "offensive" but if we listen closely to what Avincam has been saying; they are saying that they have some personal experience with something that the US actually did do. This poster's conclusions about the US based on same may or may not be accurate; but it is important to recognize the deep level of pain and suffering such people have gone through. War hurts, and any country involved in war will hurt others. We should recognize this fact with more respect; even if it was our country that did the hurting. Did Avinoam ever stop to think that if the US hadn't bombed his country, he and his family might be D E A D today.. I'm sorry, but I get tired of people criticizing the United States military. We are not perfect, but if someone in the world is in trouble, who do they look to for help? My opinion, not that it's worth anything in this forum, is that people just shut up about criticizing our troops and start supporting them. They aren't in a foreign country because they *want* to be. They'd much rather be home. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen It was another war brought to us by those nice folks at CNN and kindly paid for by the American Taxpayers. I spent a little time there in 92 or 93. Just my opinion. I find this to be 'toxic'. JMHO I would have voted for this to be classified toxic but..... Why would you post this on a Christian forum is beyond me. Those 'heroes' have invaded countries, occupied, and murdered on a large scale. Those 'heroes' bombed my country for 3 months in order to support terrorists and the same 'heroes' did nothing when Christian churches and monasteries were burned down and destroyed. These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Originally Posted By: SivartM Is a war just when innocent Christians are hurt? Only if the US is fighting it. :\ Is your concern just for innocent christians or any innocent that is hurt or kiled? Maybe you should go back to OT times and see if those wars fought by the direction of God managed somehow to only kill the bad guys. I was going to just say "innocent", but I didn't want anyone to start talking about how so-and-so isn't really innocent anyway. But I can't possibly imagine why Christians would fight against Christians, so I added that word. Well... God told them to destroy the wicked. I imagine that means that those they killed were... wicked. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: Well... God told them to destroy the wicked. I imagine that means that those they killed were... wicked. No innocent babies or children? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 War is a fact of life. People have been killing each other since Cain smacked Abel upside the head with a rock. In this world war will not be avoided. The very nature of war means that innocent people will be hurt and die. As to what has been said here,I really doubt the US deliberately targeted innocent civilians. From the various accounts provided it is pretty clear serbians did and that "Butcher of the Balkans" was a pretty accurate term. That region seemed quite proficient in bloody conduct prior to the US bombing in 1999. How much thought was given to all the innocents that died leading up to that Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 quote]Well your opinion is fair enough. I am just thinking that Canada has been quite freely condemned in this and many other international matters too. We could go on and on with the comparisons; but I think that for the US or it's citizens to go "O poor me" because of criticisms and concerns is a bit of a stretch here./quote] If I remember right Canada has been quite free in it's anti- american sentiments as well.I am not familiar with condemnation of Canada. Everyone is entitled to their opinion or so most seem to think. It is interesting to see how you cant see that it happens elsewhere too. I am thinking you would likely change your tune if you were in the posters family's place of having suffered through 3 months of bombing in your city. As I mentioned; the poster's "condemnation" is understandable; however, your condemnation of the poster is not so easy to understand. I have read through all your posts in this topic, and to be quite honest; I am having a lot of trouble figuring out your main point. I also have to wonder when people say "support our troops;" do they mean support the war, or support the troops? To me; "A Tribute To Our Military" should include much more than guns, planes, and military might. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: Well... God told them to destroy the wicked. I imagine that means that those they killed were... wicked. No innocent babies or children? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: It is interesting to see how you cant see that it happens elsewhere too. You took just a little liberty with what I said. I did not say it didn't happen elsewhere.I said I was unaware of it being directed at Canada Quote: I am thinking you would likely change your tune if you were in the posters family's place of having suffered through 3 months of bombing in your city. As I mentioned; the poster's "condemnation" is understandable; however, your condemnation of the poster is not so easy to understand. I have read through all your posts in this topic, and to be quite honest; I am having a lot of trouble figuring out your main point. Point,if you are going to label the US as some type of murdering thugs,give some details.Don't refuse by saying it is to complicated.I would probably be a little more angry at the years preceding those three months. It was not a calm peacful area where all lived in safety and then the US shows up. Quote: I also have to wonder when people say "support our troops;" do they mean support the war, or support the troops? I am not sure how you can support the troops and not a war. Quote: To me; "A Tribute To Our Military" should include much more than guns, planes, and military might. Maybe you need to rewatch the video. Seems there was more than guns and planes being displayed The military is guns,planes and military might. They are not a Red Cross unit.They are often used in other area's but first and foremost they are fighting men and women. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: ] And war hurting innocent people is okay then? Because war is a "fact of life"? Can you please show me where I said hurting innocent people is alright? Must be a typo I should find and correct. Saying something is a fact of life is not saying it is okay or should happen. Innocent people are often caught in the crossfire. In war it is inevitable and unavoidable.Just as war is in this world Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: It is interesting to see how you cant see that it happens elsewhere too. You took just a little liberty with what I said. I did not say it didn't happen elsewhere.I said I was unaware of it being directed at Canada quote]I also have to wonder when people say "support our troops;" do they mean support the war, or support the troops? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: ] And war hurting innocent people is okay then? Because war is a "fact of life"? Can you please show me where I said hurting innocent people is alright? Must be a typo I should find and correct. Saying something is a fact of life is not saying it is okay or should happen. Innocent people are often caught in the crossfire. In war it is inevitable and unavoidable.Just as war is in this world Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusatory. So you are against wars in which innocent people are hurt? Good! :) Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: Sorry, I didn't mean to sound accusatory. So you are against wars in which innocent people are hurt? Good! There has never been a war that did not kill innocent people. I would much rather no one be killed or die.I would much rather never hear of another war being fought.That is not likely In practical terms I know as long as this world lasts it will always be the same. Our family is not a stranger to innocents dying as many are not. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: I would apologize if I could agree that I did take a little liberty on that note, but the fact remains, as posted by you, that whenever I tried to say something about Canada; you took the stance that wanted to debate that. If that is not saying so I don't know what is. If saying I was unaware of criticism of Canada is wanting to debate it,so be it. I am unaware of that happening. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 31, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: I would apologize if I could agree that I did take a little liberty on that note, but the fact remains, as posted by you, that whenever I tried to say something about Canada; you took the stance that wanted to debate that. If that is not saying so I don't know what is. If saying I was unaware of criticism of Canada is wanting to debate it,so be it. I am unaware of that happening. I have to agree with Bonnie on this. Have not heard of any other country being condemned for anything but the USA. And also agree with Pam that if not for the USA many, many more would've died in the struggles of all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. And besides that we did not just come in there are bomb without being asked. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I have to agree with Bonnie on this. Have not heard of any other country being condemned for anything but the USA. And also agree with Pam that if not for the USA many, many more would've died in the struggles of all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. And besides that we did not just come in there are bomb without being asked. pk No criticism of Canada, eh? Your's or Bonnie's statements re the US being the only ones criticized, is only a personal opinion; which does not make it fact. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: No criticism of Canada, eh? Your's or Bonnie's statements re the US being the only ones criticized, is only a personal opinion; which does not make it fact. I'm sorry overaged. I have to disagree with you on this one. If they say that haven't heard criticism ... then I believe them that they have not heard criticism. Why would they lie. Therefore their statement is a fact and correct. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 31, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2010 Originally Posted By: pkrause I have to agree with Bonnie on this. Have not heard of any other country being condemned for anything but the USA. And also agree with Pam that if not for the USA many, many more would've died in the struggles of all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. And besides that we did not just come in there are bomb without being asked. pk No criticism of Canada, eh? Your's or Bonnie's statements re the US being the only ones criticized, is only a personal opinion; which does not make it fact. You could be right overaged, I'm not stating a fact just an observation over some 40 years. Have seen where Canada, Australia, Germany, etc, have all critized the USA for one reason or another. And probably diserved in some instance's, I wont argue that. I do believe if people want to critize the US they should critize the government. The soldiers of any country only do what they are told. They are all hero's to there countries and should be honored for there service. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: No criticism of Canada, eh? Your's or Bonnie's statements re the US being the only ones criticized, is only a personal opinion; which does not make it fact. You are still making what was actually said into what you wanted it to have been. Neither PK or I said "It is a fact Canada has not been criticized".Rather we were unaware of that happening.It was not stated as a personal opinion but rather "WE HAD NOT HEARD THAT AND WERE UNAWARE IT HAD" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: I'm sorry overaged. I have to disagree with you on this one. If they say that haven't heard criticism ... then I believe them that they have not heard criticism. Why would they lie. Therefore their statement is a fact and correct. You are right,IT IS A FACT I HAVE NOT HEARD THAT REGARDING CANADA. I have heard Canada very critical of the US tho. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: I'm sorry overaged. I have to disagree with you on this one. If they say that haven't heard criticism ... then I believe them that they have not heard criticism. Why would they lie. Therefore their statement is a fact and correct. You are right,IT IS A FACT I HAVE NOT HEARD THAT REGARDING CANADA. I have heard Canada very critical of the US tho. OK. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinoam Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Did Avinoam ever stop to think that if the US hadn't bombed his country, he and his family might be D E A D today.. I'm sorry, but I get tired of people criticizing the United States military. We are not perfect, but if someone in the world is in trouble, who do they look to for help? My opinion, not that it's worth anything in this forum, is that people just shut up about criticizing our troops and start supporting them. They aren't in a foreign country because they *want* to be. They'd much rather be home. What is that supposed to mean? Im not sure if Im following any longer. The American bombs put the lives of mu family in danger, they didnt save them! That was the whoe point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: No criticism of Canada, eh? Your's or Bonnie's statements re the US being the only ones criticized, is only a personal opinion; which does not make it fact. I'm sorry overaged. I have to disagree with you on this one. If they say that haven't heard criticism ... then I believe them that they have not heard criticism. Why would they lie. Therefore their statement is a fact and correct. Don't be "sorry," in my eyes you have done nothing wrong! Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinoam Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Bonnie, you said I didnt offer any specifics but just condemned the poster who posted that link. Well that's simply not true. I was amazed how an Adventist can post something like this because I thought it is inconsiderate to other Adventists who have suffered a great deal from the same military machine my American Adventist brother is praising and glorifying! In this context I'd rather have NO Adventists ever praising anything that's got to do with war, war-ships, guns, and bombs, etc. Secondly, about your specifics. This may sound arrogant but I could not believe YOU as an American are asking me for specifics? I was wondering if you do not know what YOUR country is doing and for what reasons? And then I realized that you really dont know anything about it! You have based your opinion on one of the most complex historical issues on some newspaper articles scrambled all over the internet. I simply dont know how to respond to this, I wouldnt even know where to begin! I have studied this subject and the subject of American foreign policy for nearly ten years, half of them on academic-university level. I don't have the time to educate you on an internet forum, there are universities that offer whole modules on Eastern European history, this is how much time is required to properly understand it. Now, of course, it would be stupid to require this level of education in order to participate in a casual debate in this forum, however, you have to understand that there is a possibility that you may be wrong in your opinion and willing to learn! When I talk about war I talk about something real that I have experienced. I'm talking about losing half of my school friends who were tortured and shot dead. I'm talking about my cousin whose ears and nose were cut off and whom my uncle carried wrapped up in a garbage bag to bury him. I'm talking about my uncle who was tortured, beaten and walked like a dog, which eventually drove him mad and he died soon after the war. I'm talking about my house which was burned down, my house, my street, my entire town! And in all this I see the American complicity. This complicity was expressed on so many different levels, it is documented, it is recorded, and it would take me weeks to fully explain this to you. The American government had lied and manipulated and there is overwhelming evidence that they did not want a peaceful solution but that they wanted to start the war! And this is where education starts! If you are interested I can provide literature on this, but please, in the name of our saviour Jesus, quit talking about being 'proud of our troops' and 'proud of our heroes'. Those heroes have brought unimaginable pain to so many people in the world. If there is anything we should glorify it should be Jesus and not guns and bombs, and not some army of humans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 quote=rudywoofs]Did Avinoam ever stop to think that if the US hadn't bombed his country, he and his family might be D E A D today.. I'm sorry, but I get tired of people criticizing the United States military. We are not perfect, but if someone in the world is in trouble, who do they look to for help? My opinion, not that it's worth anything in this forum, is that people just shut up about criticizing our troops and start supporting them. They aren't in a foreign country because they *want* to be. They'd much rather be home. /quote] What is that supposed to mean? Im not sure if Im following any longer. The American bombs put the lives of mu family in danger, they didnt save them! That was the whoe point! Yes; it must have been so exciting when they bombed your country for such a "good" reason. I sure hope they come and bomb us soon too to "save" my family. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Quote: you said I didnt offer any specifics but just condemned the poster who posted that link. Well that's simply not true. I was amazed how an Adventist can post something like this because I thought it is inconsiderate to other Adventists who have suffered a great deal from the same military machine my American Adventist brother is praising and glorifying! In this context I'd rather have NO Adventists ever praising anything that's got to do with war, war-ships, guns, and bombs, etc. Your opening post blasted a poster who posted the military tribute. You may consider it inconsiderate,the good thing is you do not have to read the military tribute. I don't doubt adventists have been caught in the acts of war. Were those acts of war targeting and singling out adventists? I rather doubt that. Quote: Secondly, about your specifics. This may sound arrogant but I could not believe YOU as an American are asking me for specifics? I was wondering if you do not know what YOUR country is doing and for what reasons? And then I realized that you really dont know anything about it Do you think an american remembers and focuses on every conflict.It has been quite some time since I had really paid attention to that area. Many things have happened since to draw attention away from that. Quote: You have based your opinion on one of the most complex historical issues on some newspaper articles scrambled all over the internet. I simply dont know how to respond to this, I wouldnt even know where to begin! I have studied this subject and the subject of American foreign policy for nearly ten years, half of them on academic-university level. I don't have the time to educate you on an internet forum, there are universities that offer whole modules on Eastern European history, this is how much time is required to properly understand it. Now, of course, it would be stupid to require this level of education in order to participate in a casual debate in this forum, however, you have to understand that there is a possibility that you may be wrong in your opinion and willing to learn! Every article I have read so far,with the exception of the communist and socialist websites have said pretty much the same thing. Quote: When I talk about war I talk about something real that I have experienced. I'm talking about losing half of my school friends who were tortured and shot dead. I'm talking about my cousin whose ears and nose were cut off and whom my uncle carried wrapped up in a garbage bag to bury him. I'm talking about my uncle who was tortured, beaten and walked like a dog, which eventually drove him mad and he died soon after the war. I'm talking about my house which was burned down, my house, my street, my entire town! And the american military did this?? I am sorry you had to go thru that but I have read where the other side made the same claims. Quote: And in all this I see the American complicity. This complicity was expressed on so many different levels, it is documented, it is recorded, and it would take me weeks to fully explain this to you. The American government had lied and manipulated and there is overwhelming evidence that they did not want a peaceful solution but that they wanted to start the war! And this is where education starts! If you are interested I can provide literature on this, but please, in the name of our saviour Jesus, quit talking about being 'proud of our troops' and 'proud of our heroes'. Those heroes have brought unimaginable pain to so many people in the world. If there is anything we should glorify it should be Jesus and not guns and bombs, and not some army of humans! What you claim to see and what others writing about it claim are opposites. Atrocities by the "Butcher of the Balkans" rivals and many times far exceeds the atrocities from the other side. You blame americans,that is your right. It is my right as well as others to not accept what you are saying as fact. I am proud of our troops. You do not have to agree,but a little backup for your accusations would be nice Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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