A Tribute to our Military

[Overaged]

Well; I have decided that there is nothing to say here. I am not laughing at anyone, I am laughing at something they said.

To be treated like a dunce, and with obvious venom and hatred just because of having a problem with the US military is not right either. If one could listen to the pain behind the problem with the military in your country; one would not see the hatred against opposers to same, as I have been seeing in this thread as soon as someone voiced contempt for all those shiny weapons of war that "help" us so much. Of course, some day they may come to "help" us too. Hopefully I can still post here from the bomb shelter to tell you what it's really like, just as Avinoam has tried to do. If what you are doing, if what the US military is doing, is so right; why do some of you need to treat him the the way you have?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This thread began as a Tribute to the American Military. It turned into a contemptuous thread via Avinoam. You sided with Avinoam. I sided with Bonnie and patriotism for America. You turned it into some kind of weird idea about Canada vs the USA. I spoke my opinion that Avinoam could be dead right now if not for some of the military procedures that occurred. Bonnie tore apart your claim of Canada vs. the USA. I said I did not want Avinoam in the USA. You laughed at me after telling me your "Christian" friends would welcome him with open arms.

And you misquoted me.

Do not ever, and I mean EVER laugh at me again. Do you understand me? As God is my Witness, I do not take the denigration of American troops without a fight. Got it? Good.

[Overaged]

This thread began as a Tribute to the American Military. It turned into a contemptuous thread via Avinoam. You sided with Avinoam. I sided with Bonnie and patriotism for America. You turned it into some kind of weird idea about Canada vs the USA. I spoke my opinion that Avinoam could be dead right now if not for some of the military procedures that occurred. Bonnie tore apart your claim of Canada vs. the USA. I said I did not want Avinoam in the USA. You laughed at me after telling me your "Christian" friends would welcome him with open arms.

And you misquoted me.

Do not ever, and I mean EVER laugh at me again. Do you understand me? As God is my Witness, I do not take the denigration of American troops without a fight. Got it? Good.

I laughed at the phrase "bully for you." It's something that we used to use as kids, and I found it funny. Still do. Some appear to want things in black and white so I can see how my responses could be seen as siding with Avinoam. What I am saying is that this "contempt" as you and others have chosen to see it means something, and we need to see past the offensiveness we feel to where the other person is at. The US military doesn't need you or Bonnie to "defend" them; they are quite able to do that themselves. I am not the one who turned this into "contempt."

Bonnie didn't tear apart my claim of Canada vs the US at all. That's not what I claimed. She is the one who made it an us vs them mentality by saying "only the US gets this kind of criticism." I still differ with that; and there's no amount of of tough talk that is going to change my mind. Bonnie has provided no evidence of anything here; only strong opinions and innuendos concocted from who knows where.

Maybe I won't "laugh" as much if you promise not to use those little apostrophies in reference to my "Christian" friends. That means something too. No comparison of my christians friends with your's or anyone elses was intended. It could have been "muslim" friends and still made the same point; atleast in my mind.

I guess in the end; as I am presuming you and Bonnie will fire back at me a little more, this boils down to where you are saying "this guy hurt us so we will hurt him, and anyone who sides with him." That's really all that I see here.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In other words, you don't give a flying flip that you hurt me. Real "Christian", that..

[Overaged]

In other words, you don't give a flying flip that you hurt me. Real "Christian", that..

I am sorry I hurt you; but I am not sorry for the way I think. If that is "Christian" to you, then I am not sure what else to do.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Bonnie didn't tear apart my claim of Canada vs the US at all. That's not what I claimed. She is the one who made it an us vs them mentality by saying "only the US gets this kind of criticism." I still differ with that; and there's no amount of of tough talk that is going to change my mind. Bonnie has provided no evidence of anything here; only strong opinions and innuendos concocted from who knows where.

I am not the one that should have been required to provide evidence.Prior to the outburst concerning our "murderous troops"everything was fine.

But as to strong opinions and innuendos you are again not quite accurate.

I provided you with the links to many articles that did not back up the claims that had been made.

What you provided was a ridiculous link claiming the US wanting to make Canada part of the axis of evil.

You may choose not to believe the links but for me it is quite a stretch to believe each and everyone lied and told the very same lies.

As to this.......concocted from who knows where go back and check,you must have missed the links the first time around. It tells you from where

[Guest]

"The Case of the Missing Links"

Sounds like a "Brains Benton" mystery.

[Avinoam]

And as for Avinoam who stated:

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations.

I hope he never feels the need to come to the United States or use any products or manufactured goods, or services from the U.S. As far as I'm concerned, to be very blunt, he's not welcome here.

Good thing I dont depend on your hospitality, my Adventist brother. And anyway, I certainly do not need any of your U.S. products or services because there are still plenty of other economies. Btw, the rest of the world has managed to survive just fine even before 1776.

[Avinoam]

Your opening post blasted a poster who posted the military tribute.

You may consider it inconsiderate,the good thing is you do not have to read the military tribute.

I don't doubt adventists have been caught in the acts of war. Were those acts of war targeting and singling out adventists? I rather doubt that.

Every article I have read so far,with the exception of the communist and socialist websites have said pretty much the same thing.

And the american military did this?? I am sorry you had to go thru that but I have read where the other side made the same claims.

What you claim to see and what others writing about it claim are opposites. Atrocities by the "Butcher of the Balkans" rivals and many times far exceeds the atrocities from the other side.

You blame americans,that is your right. It is my right as well as others to not accept what you are saying as fact.

I am proud of our troops. You do not have to agree,but a little backup for your accusations would be nice

Bonnie,

I am doing my PhD in American Foreign Policy. I will be teaching this subject at university level in a couple of years. You are more than welcomed to enrol. Until then my only advice to you is: be humble, read broadly, research, THINK CRITICALLY, and learn. I chuckle every time when I see you mentioning some articles and websites. If you want to understand what is going on in a certain conflict area and what the economical, political, cultural, and historical implications are, you need to do extensive research. You can't just Google things and throw it in here as if it would mean something! Phrases like "Butcher of the Balkans" have been invented by the yellow press in order to explain very complex issues to people who cannot read longer than 5 minutes per day. They are aimed at simple-minded people who refuse to think for themselves. They polarise. They stir emotions on the most primitive level. They do not provide a sufficient depth of analysis of any issues in question because that is not their purpose.

The problem is I cannot debate with you because my knowledge in American politics supersedes yours by far. Do you understand what I mean? Talking to you is like explaining mechanical systems to a five-year old. Please don't take this as an insult but rather a stimulus to find out more about it.

PS. If reading it too hard, try this, for a starter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEzOgpMWnVs

[Avinoam]

I have to agree with Bonnie on this. Have not heard of any other country being condemned for anything but the USA. And also agree with Pam that if not for the USA many, many more would've died in the struggles of all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia. And besides that we did not just come in there are bomb without being asked.

pk

Well if that is the case then I can only conclude you don't have a library in your town, or any form of media access. The governments of all European countries which are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan are being condemned for their participation in the war. Condemned by the public, by various organisations, by political parties, etc. Israel is being condemned on regular basis for its military operation in Gaza and WB. Iraq was condemned for invading Kuwait, the U.S. for invading Iraq, Iran and Syria for aiding financial help to the Hizballah, etc etc the list goes on.

Evidence suggests that if it were not for the USA policy towards Yugoslavia in the 1970s and 1980s and a subsequent joined U.S.-German policy in the early 1990s, the conflict would have never even taken place. There is also overwhelming evidence that if it weren’t for Clinton, Albright, Clark, Walker, and Holbrook, just a name a few, the conflict in 1999 would have never occurred.

And lastly, you were not asked to drop bombed on any sovereign state. You did so because it was in your interest. You did so because it is part of your policy. Only in recent history you have manipulated the public several times, first in Rambouillet and then prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

[Woody]

Quote:

Avinoam: "These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations."

I don't care to enter into this fray ... BUT:

It used to be acceptable to call our president a murderer ... then entered Obama. Since he has been president it has been against the rules of this forum to state such things.

I hope a word to the wise is sufficient.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I am doing my PhD in American Foreign Policy. I will be teaching this subject at university level in a couple of years. You are more than welcomed to enrol. Until then my only advice to you is: be humble, read broadly, research, THINK CRITICALLY, and learn.

Your view of history may be impressive to you but you sound a lot like the immigrants from the former Soviet Union that I worked for.

They were also very well educated in their home country.Their reverence and hero worship of Lenin was a result of that education.Any and all negative concerning Lenin was disregarded as deliberately false.

Quote:

I chuckle every time when I see you mentioning some articles and websites. If you want to understand what is going on in a certain conflict area and what the economical, political, cultural, and historical implications are, you need to do extensive research. You can't just Google things and throw it in here as if it would mean something! Phrases like "Butcher of the Balkans" have been invented by the yellow press in order to explain very complex issues to people who cannot read longer than 5 minutes per day.

Hate to disillusion you but much of what I have looked up on this subject takes far more than five minutes. I have found articles that speak favorably of "the Butcher of the Balkans" but they come from communist and socialist websites and writings.I don't spend a lot of time with those endorsing that ideology.

Quote:

They are aimed at simple-minded people who refuse to think for themselves. They polarise. They stir emotions on the most primitive level. They do not provide a sufficient depth of analysis of any issues in question because that is not their purpose.

Read something almost word for word as to what you have posted.All coming from communist or socialist ideology

Quote:

The problem is I cannot debate with you because my knowledge in American politics supersedes yours by far. Do you understand what I mean? Talking to you is like explaining mechanical systems to a five-year old. Please don't take this as an insult but rather a stimulus to find out more about it.

Again the common theme I have been reading in the communist propaganda is the "common man" really can't understand.Looks like your "education" has been complete

Quote:

PS. If reading it too hard, try this, for a starter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEzOgpMWnVs

There is a common theme on this forum to wring hands over sarcastic or toxic posts. Interesting the new standards that are acceptable for some and condemned in poor taste for others.

But to respond to your sarcastic and toxic posts,yes I am capable of reading.

Because we disagree on what information means you are doing a fine job of rising to the new standard.

I did check out your very informative you tube link and many off of that.

What I found is someone that is of the "progressive ideology"

I don't subscribe to that as it is a sanitary term for socialist/communist/marxist leanings.

[Avinoam]

Bonnie,

I live in the United Kingdom. I have my bachelor and magister artium from British universities and I am doing my PhD in United Kingdom.

Most of the literature I quote is from academic American, European, and other authors. You would not pass one single module in your first year of university if you use the internet as your main source of information. If you accuse me again of some weird communist/socialist leaning, I will again just copy and paste what I have already written in this post. Here's the summary:

1.) Websites/articles/blogs as reference: No. Not allowed. It will not be marked.

2.) Peer reviewed journals, university press, universally accepted academic literature: Yes. Allowed. Use it.

P.S. How ironical that you are talking about 'hero-worship' considering I am arguing AGAINST YOUR worship of America and American military troops. In contrast I have not spoken once in favour of any political leaders at all.

Again my advice to you: educate yourself.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I live in the United Kingdom. I have my bachelor and magister artium from British universities and I am doing my PhD in United Kingdom.

Most of the literature I quote is from academic American, European, and other authors. You would not pass one single module in your first year of university if you use the internet as your main source of information. If you accuse me again of some weird communist/socialist leaning, I will again just copy and paste what I have already written in this post. Here's the summary:

Your summary and list of what can and cannot be posted really does not mean a lot. The youtube you posted featuring Michael Parenti says about all that needs to be said about your political leanings.

He is a progressive and that is code word for at least socialism

Quote:

1.) Websites/articles/blogs as reference: No. Not allowed. It will not be marked.

You do not have the power or suthority to "allow me or anyone else" to do anything.

Quote:

2.) Peer reviewed journals, university press, universally accepted academic literature: Yes. Allowed. Use it.

As in Michael Parenti? Get down off your high horse and thinking you can say what is or is not allowed

Quote:

P.S. How ironical that you are talking about 'hero-worship' considering I am arguing AGAINST YOUR worship of America and American military troops. In contrast I have not spoken once in favour of any political leaders at all.

No,this started with a tribute to our military. Giving our military a tribute is not hero worship.You don't like the american military,that really is unfortunate. Your use of allow as to what can be posted explains your offensive first post on this topic.

The military men and women give many time the ultimate price.They will be honored with or without you "allowing" it.

As for worship of america,I firmly believe that God had his hand in the settling of this land.I believe the writing of our constitution reflected God's influence on those men. For it's time it was way ahead of time by more than 200 years.

Was or is it always right? NOPE,Does it always do everything for the best of reasons? I don't think so.

What you have spoken of is a scathing condemntaion and denouncing everything that disagrees with a progressive as Michael Parenti.

Offering nothing except what you see as your superior education and intelligence.

Actually going so far as to announce what you will and will not allow.

Again my advice to you: educate yourself.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

And as for Avinoam who stated:

I hope he never feels the need to come to the United States or use any products or manufactured goods, or services from the U.S. As far as I'm concerned, to be very blunt, he's not welcome here.

Quote:

Good thing I dont depend on your hospitality, my Adventist brother. And anyway, I certainly do not need any of your U.S. products or services because there are still plenty of other economies. Btw, the rest of the world has managed to survive just fine even before 1776.

I am *not* your Adventist brother. And you certainly seemed to have managed just fine in the UK. Good thing nothing you use comes from the US.

And it's good to know that the world was not a bloodbath before 1776, and no wars had ever been fought and people lived in harmony with each other.

If you think

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations.

is PhD quality thinking, then I don't put a penny's worth of value into your dissertation. You might try some on-line Universities that sell PhD's. Save you some money. .... Oh..my mistake. You seem to have quite a bit of money and live quite well now.

And BTW, if we hadn't bombed Germany and nuked Hiroshima, we would all, includiing YOU, would be speaking German today.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The problem is I cannot debate with you because my knowledge in American politics supersedes yours by far.

Your comment was not only rude but narcissistic as hell; you don't know *what* Bonnie, nor I for that matter, know about American politics. But I have no interest whatsoever in debating American politics with you.

This thread was begun as a Tribute to the American Military. If you do not like it, don't watch it. But please don't turn it into a histrionic vendetta against the United States.

Yes, please educate yourself better.

[Avinoam]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

And as for Avinoam who stated:

I hope he never feels the need to come to the United States or use any products or manufactured goods, or services from the U.S. As far as I'm concerned, to be very blunt, he's not welcome here.

Quote:

Good thing I dont depend on your hospitality, my Adventist brother. And anyway, I certainly do not need any of your U.S. products or services because there are still plenty of other economies. Btw, the rest of the world has managed to survive just fine even before 1776.

I am *not* your Adventist brother. And you certainly seemed to have managed just fine in the UK. Good thing nothing you use comes from the US.

And it's good to know that the world was not a bloodbath before 1776, and no wars had ever been fought and people lived in harmony with each other.

If you think

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations.

is PhD quality thinking, then I don't put a penny's worth of value into your dissertation. You might try some on-line Universities that sell PhD's. Save you some money. .... Oh..my mistake. You seem to have quite a bit of money and live quite well now.

And BTW, if we hadn't bombed Germany and nuked Hiroshima, we would all, includiing YOU, would be speaking German today.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Haha, brilliant. Thank you for saving my life and providing the opportunity to speak English! My Adventist brother.

[Avinoam]

Originally Posted By: Avinoam

The problem is I cannot debate with you because my knowledge in American politics supersedes yours by far.

Your comment was not only rude but narcissistic as hell; you don't know *what* Bonnie, nor I for that matter, know about American politics. But I have no interest whatsoever in debating American politics with you.

This thread was begun as a Tribute to the American Military. If you do not like it, don't watch it. But please don't turn it into a histrionic vendetta against the United States.

Yes, please educate yourself better.

It's not a 'historic vendetta', whatever that means, it's a critical examination of the American foregin policy since 1945.

[Avinoam]

Bonnie, the gloomy years of McCarthyism are over. The Cold War is over. The 'communist threat' doesn't exist anymore. Labelling political spectrums as communist/socialist/marxist is not only extremely outdated but quite simplistic. As is you world view. And btw, what's wrong with being progressive? Progressive in what context?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

How can you say what you are writing is not a histrionic vendetta when you don't even know what it means? i.e. Avinoam: "These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations." If you don't know what a word means, then look it up. Dictionary.com is very useful.

[Avinoam]

How can you say what you are writing is not a histrionic vendetta when you don't even know what it means? i.e. Avinoam: "These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations." If you don't know what a word means, then look it up. Dictionary.com is very useful.

I know what vendetta means, I just coulnd't figure out what 'historic' vendetta means. Forgive me for being so pedantic.

[Outta Here]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

How can you say what you are writing is not a histrionic vendetta when you don't even know what it means? i.e. Avinoam: "These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations." If you don't know what a word means, then look it up. Dictionary.com is very useful.

I know what vendetta means, I just coulnd't figure out what 'historic' vendetta means. Forgive me for being so pedantic.

Pedantic. Hehehe. She said histrionic.

[Avinoam]

Pedantic. Hehehe. She said histrionic.

Now it makes sense :)

[Overaged]

How can you say what you are writing is not a histrionic vendetta when you don't even know what it means? i.e. Avinoam: "These guys are not heroes, they are nothing but a forces of destruction in the service of various neo-colonialist, murdering U.S. administrations." If you don't know what a word means, then look it up. Dictionary.com is very useful.

Histrionic" does not seem like the best choice in words here to describe what Avinoam has been saying here. Histrionic means things like:

"Characteristic of acting or a stage performance; often affected, meaning possibly to speak or behave in an artificial way to make an impression." Another descriptor would be "melodramatic."

While Avinoam maybe could have picked a better venue for his concerns, and to voice the effects and traumas for himself and for his family's experience; I seriously doubt that it is worth all the hub bub that is being squandered on him over this.

Nit-picking over weather or not one country gets or does not get the same kind of flack over their involvement in current or past wars only masks the real problem at hand.

Individuals or countries who cannot stand to be challenged in any way, cause a lot of the world's friction. Why not see Avinoam's opinions as an opportunity to show people the good points re the American Military, and to show that you will love him anyways? I mean, how else can the problems inherent in his kind of opinions be solved?

I apologize to all who felt I got personal in my comments. But I cannot apologize for any of my negative feelings about the military forces of either of our respective countries. Not all is good in that area; and hopefully ones such as Avinoam will remember that the converse is also true, and that not all is bad either.

Avinoam; you have to remember that as you do your Phd in history, that "History" is in danger of becoming activist in nature; if we are unwilling to look at all sides. There is nothing worse than activist "history" books! While I believe your concerns; and see them as legit; I also see great danger of going overboard to where you become one of those activist "dudes" who promotes mostly his own personal experience, opinions and feelings as "history." Many different religions do this; they all have their own "true" brands of history. Don't become one of those who cannot tell what is reality because your Phd morphs into an activist, anti-US cult.

And, since you do appear to have interest in Christian things; please, also remember, that "History" is in essence, "HIS-STORY" When you can consider the part of your Phd dealing with the US, in light of "His-Story," meaning, the story of Jesus; then you will be a true historian who really knows his stuff! (LOL and I WILL BUY YOUR BOOKS!)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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