Should Adventists Agree With Catholics On Abortion?

[Woody]

The main focus for me on this issue is:

Are we as a church proposing a National Law to support our beliefs or not? This is the key. Or ... are we just making a statement for the fun of it?

[Overaged]

That much I have gathered; but if you look closely at their official position which I posted for everyone above; how is it different than what the Adventist Pro-Life people here are advocating? They call it murder too.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

That much I have gathered; but if you look closely at their official position which I posted for everyone above; how is it different than what the Adventist Pro-Life people here are advocating? They call it murder too.

If we as a church cannot agree that the deliberate ending of the life of an unborn is morally wrong, we have absolutely no moral standing with Catholics and shouldn't even bother them. I have no idea why they would want to team up with us on this topic except to further some other agenda.

In their minds, teaming up with Adventists on the abortion issue would be a step down.

[Kountzer]

Here's something else that's interesting on this subject:

In 1987, an attorney and Harvard law professor, Lawrence Lader, wrote, "It must be a signifiant part of the Vatican strategy that abortion becomes the dominant issue in the United States, while its legalization has been virtually ignored in such Catholic countries as Poland and Italy, which have the highest abortion rate in Western Europe.

"Cardinal O'Connor and Cardinal Law have turned abortion into the 'cutting edge' of the right-wing assault on separation of church and state. It is the most easily dramatized weapon in their arsenal...

"Abortion has thus become the prime instrument of the assault on First Amendment separation... Abortion represents the core of the Catholic-Fundamentalist-White House alliance (Catholic-Protestant-US Government) It represents the best possibility of a break-through for the conservative agenda. If abortion rights can be destroyed, all other objectives can be won more easily." Lawrence Lader, attorney, Power, Politics, and the Church, pp. 58, 70, 71 (NY Macmillan, 1987).

I think the statement is still true 23 years later, in 2010.

Interesting statement on the subject. I agree.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

My answer is "NO" we should not join up with the Catholic church on this issue. We should take our own stand on behalf of intrauterine babies..

That much I have gathered; but if you look closely at their official position which I posted for everyone above; how is it different than what the Adventist Pro-Life people here are advocating? They call it murder too.

Well, what shall we call the deliberate killing of an intrauterine baby?

Murder? This is one option.

Execution? (What did these babies do wrong?)

Or is it just intrauterine wart removal? They are living cells, but they aren't really anything or anyone in particular yet. Right?

Wrong.

They're babies in the early stages of development.

An embryo is to a toddler what a pre-med student is to a brain surgeon.

So, how shall we accurately refer to the premeditated snuffing out of these babies? If we are not happy with Catholic terminology, what term SHOULD we use? The word "abortion" is woefully inadequate.

[Overaged]

quote=John317]Here's something else that's interesting on this subject:

In 1987, an attorney and Harvard law professor, Lawrence Lader, wrote, "It must be a signifiant part of the Vatican strategy that abortion becomes the dominant issue in the United States, while its legalization has been virtually ignored in such Catholic countries as Poland and Italy, which have the highest abortion rate in Western Europe.

"Cardinal O'Connor and Cardinal Law have turned abortion into the 'cutting edge' of the right-wing assault on separation of church and state. It is the most easily dramatized weapon in their arsenal...

"Abortion has thus become the prime instrument of the assault on First Amendment separation... Abortion represents the core of the Catholic-Fundamentalist-White House alliance (Catholic-Protestant-US Government) It represents the best possibility of a break-through for the conservative agenda. If abortion rights can be destroyed, all other objectives can be won more easily." Lawrence Lader, attorney, Power, Politics, and the Church, pp. 58, 70, 71 (NY Macmillan, 1987).

I think the statement is still true 23 years later, in 2010.

Interesting statement on the subject. I agree.

I would like to gather more info here, with references, regarding the Catholic Agenda on abortion. I would also be interested in hearing thoughts on just how we should oppose abortion, if that is their agenda?

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]

Originally Posted By: karl

My answer is "NO" we should not join up with the Catholic church on this issue. We should take our own stand on behalf of intrauterine babies..

That much I have gathered; but if you look closely at their official position which I posted for everyone above; how is it different than what the Adventist Pro-Life people here are advocating? They call it murder too.

Well, what shall we call the deliberate killing of an intrauterine baby?

Murder? This is one option.

Execution? (What did these babies do wrong?)

Or is it just intrauterine wart removal? They are living cells, but they aren't really anything or anyone in particular yet. Right?

Wrong.

They're babies in the early stages of development.

An embryo is to a toddler what a pre-med student is to a brain surgeon.

So, how shall we accurately refer to the premeditated snuffing out of these babies? If we are not happy with Catholic terminology, what term SHOULD we use? The word "abortion" is woefully inadequate.

Karl; I have already mentioned that the Catholics call abortion murder too. So what is your point? This thread is to examine the Catholic agenda, and see if we should or should not agree with it.

[karl]

Karl; I have already mentioned that the Catholics call abortion murder too. So what is your point? This thread is to examine the Catholic agenda, and see if we should or should not agree with it.

I have already mentioned I have no need to team up with Catholics. I would like to see my church have the guts to call a spade a spade. We can do it with suicide, which cuts off far fewer years. We can come out against physician assisted suicide, but we can't come out against physician assisted infanticide.

Can you explain any reason for that one to me?

I think it's money.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Karl; I have already mentioned that the Catholics call abortion murder too. So what is your point? This thread is to examine the Catholic agenda, and see if we should or should not agree with it.

I have already mentioned I have no need to team up with Catholics. I would like to see my church have the guts to call a spade a spade. We can do it with suicide, which cuts off far fewer years. We can come out against physician assisted suicide, but we can't come out against physician assisted infanticide.

Can you explain any reason for that one to me?

I think it's money.

Your cause is already taking place in the other thread. I will be happy to address it there if you post this comment there.

[Overaged]

Stealing is legislated because everyone is in agreement that it is wrong. Why is the fourth commandment not legislated? Because most are not in agreement that it is right.

Why is abortion not legislated? Because most people are not in agreement that it is wrong.

Why is it that so many people want to legislate God's laws? Where would this take us if we got on this band wagon?

I know I have given more questions. But, I hope you will consider them.

Of course; you have given rise to more questions! But that's not always bad.

Essentially; abortion is already legislated. The cornerstone of the pro-choice "rights" is that it is a legal position--not a moral one.

The same could be said of any matter that is legislated. As far as the law is concerned, capital murder is a legal position, not a moral one. So is armed robbery, aggravated assault, securities fraud, etc., etc.

To the Church; this should be a moral issue.

[olger]

Adventists should agree with God on abortion.

g

[teresaq]

thats what the papacy says. they claim to know, and be able to say, what God thinks and wants.

[Overaged]

thats what the papacy says. they claim to know, and be able to say, what God thinks and wants.

Sorry; I am a little slow today. I am not sure who you addressed this post to, and why you said this.

[teresaq]

next to the title above each post is the person who is generally being answered to. like your name is above this post next to the title.

[Overaged]

next to the title above each post is the person who is generally being answered to.

OK, thankyou. I wasn't worried about it; just wanted to be able to follow what was happening.

[Overaged]

Adventists should agree with God on abortion.

g

Well; if it's this simple, can you elaborate a bit? Why is it so hard for us to agree on what God says re abortions?

[Overaged]

People have been deluded into thinking that they can get away with having abortions, with impunity to consequences, because abortions have been falsely labelled as a "right." But Abortions Change You and not for the better.

People who think that abortion does not affect the men involved, also need to rethink that falsehood. Men And Abortion .

From a nursing, and a personal, moral standpoint, I think that 99.9% of abortions are very wrong. I do have some questions in regards to the other 0.1% which would be classed as medical emergencies. Does the official Catholic position allow for any kinds of medical reasons/exceptions for abortion decisions? How about the Adventist position? Provided the decision was made by the physician, as a choice between saving the Mom, or saving the baby?

I know that even 30 years ago; a person I know was asked by the doctor, "Do you want us to save you or the baby?" Would Catholics consider it "pro-choice" if the mother chose to live, because she already had four other children at home, AND the attending physician was the one who suggested it? How would/should Adventists view this?

[olger]

Gome good points.

[teresaq]

People have been deluded into thinking that they can get away with having abortions, with impunity to consequences, because abortions have been falsely labelled as a "right." But Abortions Change You and not for the better.

People who think that abortion does not affect the men involved, also need to rethink that falsehood. Men And Abortion .

From a nursing, and a personal, moral standpoint, I think that 99.9% of abortions are very wrong. I do have some questions in regards to the other 0.1% which would be classed as medical emergencies. Does the official Catholic position allow for any kinds of medical reasons/exceptions for abortion decisions? How about the Adventist position? Provided the decision was made by the physician, as a choice between saving the Mom, or saving the baby?

I know that even 30 years ago; a person I know was asked by the doctor, "Do you want us to save you or the baby?" Would Catholics consider it "pro-choice" if the mother chose to live, because she already had four other children at home, AND the attending physician was the one who suggested it? How would/should Adventists view this?

gossiping about and slandering others is unequivocally against the 10 commandments and definitely changes those who practice it, so how do we legislate against that?

and what about those who lose loved ones tragically such as those whose children have been stolen and tortured for the perpetrators benefit before finally allowing death to come as a blessed relief to the poor little people?

how many people suffer depression as the anniversery nears of a variety of circumstances that have happened to them? how do we legislate against whatever caused those various circumstances?

i hope that site truly is healing, because it looks like many are being attacked by the enemy. i have a catholic friend who was taught it was a sin to cross her legs in church and if she forgot and did it, ohhhh the attacks that came to her. to this day, decades later, she is not over it.

[Dr. Shane]

Adventists should agree with God on abortion.

g

I agree with that.

The problem with Catholicism is that they believe in using the civil government to force their morality on other people. Adventists seek to win people's hearts so they obey God voluntarily.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

does that include the serial killer sentenced to death.

Putting a murderer to death is respecting life. It is the ultimate respect for life. It is a statement to the value of life. It says, if you take the life of another person without just cause you must pay for that offense with your own life.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

OK, fair enough. Please allow me to be a bit of an agitator. Why is it wrong to legislate abortion; but not wrong to legislate stealing? (the eighth commandment)

Stealing is legislated because everyone is in agreement that it is wrong.

Well, when President Lincoln issued the Proclamation of Emancipation, not everyone was in agreement about slavery. In fact, there was a civil war being fought over it.

I think the civil government clearly has a right to ban abortion. I also think it is an issue that should be decided by the voters in a democratic process. I don't think men in black sitting on a bench should decide such issues for all of society. However, that said, I favor keeping abortion legal because I think we can do more to reduce the number of abortions when it is legal than we can when it is banned.

[teresaq]

so then "Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception." doesnt mean what it says.

or is only for those we say it is.

[Dr. Shane]

Putting murders to death is protecting human life absolutely from the moment of conception. How much more can human life be protected than by putting to death those that take human life?

[Overaged]

quote=olger]Adventists should agree with God on abortion.

g /quote]

I agree with that.

The problem with Catholicism is that they believe in using the civil government to force their morality on other people. Adventists seek to win people's hearts so they obey God voluntarily.

OK, fair enough. I have heard this type of sentiment expressed more than once on this subject. One of the reasons that I started this topic is that I am trying to learn from those who believe this the following:

1/ Is this the only difference between the Catholic and the Adventist positions on abortions?

2/ If it is not the only difference; what should we be in agreement with; and what should we oppose?