"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

If they are wrong, they have passed judgement on God's character.

And if you are wrong (and I'm now 99.9% sure you are) you are making God a sadist of the worst kind. Lucky for you in my view He doesn't get angry and zaps you with some disease...or causes the earth to shallow you up...or strikes you dead....

[Robert]

The Lord said to him, "Who made the human mouth? Who makes him mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

[pnattmbtc]

I believe the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness during the final judgment.

Just FYI, for all of you guys that are agreeing with this, Archie (assuming he hasn't changed his mind) does not believe that God will set people on fire to burn them. Also, John was saying that it's fire that God breathes on the wicked that sets them on fire, not that the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence causes them to suffer and die.

You're not really agreeing here.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If they are wrong, they have passed judgement on God's character.

And if you are wrong (and I'm now 99.9% sure you are) you are making God a sadist of the worst kind. Lucky for you in my view He doesn't get angry and zaps you with some disease...or causes the earth to shallow you up...or strikes you dead....

I make my stand on this simple point:

The scripture plainly states that God has and will destroy personally.

I must stand on that.

Do you think that God is going to judge me and condemn me for standing on the plain simple statements of scripture?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Archie

I believe the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness during the final judgment.

Just FYI, for all of you guys that are agreeing with this, Archie (assuming he hasn't changed his mind) does not believe that God will set people on fire to burn them. Also, John was saying that it's fire that God breathes on the wicked that sets them on fire, not that the radiant light of Jesus' person and presence causes them to suffer and die.

You're not really agreeing here.

I agree that either could be correct, I do not think it is definitive either way.

But I agree with both of them that God destroys the wicked...

With fire (or light)...

I do not think either way would really alter the perception of Gods character that much.

It would not misrepresent God's character by denying Him the right to destroy participatively and personally.

Mark

[John317]

Quote:

John317: I think it's possible for God to burn people up in literal fire and destroy them-- and to cause them to be punished according to the deeds done in the body-- because, first, the Bible says He will do it, and secondly, because I believe it is right for him to do it.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: You think it's right to punish people by setting them on fire?

Yes, I believe God can do it, has done it before, and will do it again. See the following texts: Lev. 10: 1,2; Num. 16: 35; and Rev. 20: 9. See also all of Ellen White's comments on Rev. 20: 9 in the wonderful volume, The Exhaustive Ellen G. White Commentary on Revelation.

NOTICE I SAID GOD-- NOT MAN-- CAN AND WILL DO IT IN STRICT JUSTICE. Perhaps you are not properly distinguishing between God and man. That would apparently be your problem right there. Individuals, except under certain circumstances, have no right to take human life, but governments do and so does God. Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are clear on this point. "God has unlimited control over the work of His hands," i.e., mankind. God could have allowed all mankind to die eternal death, and no one would have been right to say that God was unjust.

God doesn't owe human beings anything. He didn't send Jesus Christ because He had to do it or because He was somehow obligated to do it.

When it comes to the question of how God will destroy the wicked, or how He will punish them, God has unlimited control. In making these decisions, God only consults His own will. He does not ask angels or men what He should do. Ellen White says that Christ in unison with the righteous will decide the portion that the wicked MUST suffer. God obviously has the decison also of how they will be punished. God has not delegated that authority to any man. That decision was made a very long time ago. At that time God prepared the fire that will destroy the Devil and his angels, as well as all those who follow him. This is according to the very words of the Savior.

I believe it is right on the following basis:

"God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

Please tell in you own words what Ellen White wrote there. What do you understand her to be saying? Let's talk about this because it seems apparent to me that you are either not taking it into consideration or else you don't understand what it says.

On the basis of the above paragraph, as well as many things the Bibles says, what you ask about other humans is not relevant to the question. God is not a man, and man has no right to do what God has every right to do "in strict justice." As Ellen White says, "God has unlimited control over the works of His hands." See 4 SG 50

God is not limited by what people should or should not do. What people should do has nothing to do with what God can or can't do.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Most people would consider this a hideous thing to do.

Of course it is a hideous thing. God certainly does not enjoy it, and neither will anyone else. Sin is even more hideous, however. God must put an end to sin, suffering, and death, and the only way to do it is by destroying Satan and all who follow him. God will do this "in strict justice." 12 MR 209

Truth and right are not determined by "most people" but by the word of God. Human beings cannot decide what is right and wrong apart from the Bible. Eve tried it-- and the result was the Fall.

Quote:

What is it in your background or experience that would lead you to think that setting people on fire as a form of punishment is OK?

First of all, it wouldn't ever be right for humans to set one another on fire. But God is not a human.

I might well ask you what is in your background which causes you to rebel against God's will and His decison regarding the final punishment of the wicked. I say I could just as well ask it because it would make as much sense, but you do not need to answer this. I don't care what is in your background and I don't think it's really all that relevent. I think what's more important is the insights we gain as we study the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and as we pray and talk with other Christians.

Here is what Ellen White has written on this subject. I've posted it a number of times before, but it bears repeating because it answers your question:

"God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." 12 MR 209

I don't have anything in my background that leads me to think that it's OK for people to set other people on fire as a form of punishment. The Seventh-day Adventist church as a whole believes the same thing that I do on this matter, so it would appear that you are mistaken to believe people must have something in their background that leads them to think it's OK for people to set others on fire as a form of punishment. I think the important thing is for people to accept the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy statements on this subject just as they stand.

But I do believe that it would be wrong for a human to set anyone on fire as a form of punishment, and it's very clear that God wouldn't want anyone to do it.

I've arrived at my conclusion strictly on the basis of my study of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. I've talked to many other Christians who agree with me on this. I honestly don't think that I'm alone in my convictions on this issue.

[Robert]

The scripture plainly states that God has and will destroy personally.

Then your relationship to God will be one of fear...as in "obey and live, disobey and die".

[Robert]

God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man

Jesus took the sins of all mankind. He was made sin...made a curse. We see infinite justice in the death of Christ. He took "the curse of the law", which is clearly God abandonment. God handed him over....He gave Him up. God never touched Christ...nor did He get evil men to do His biding. Why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement?

Keep in mind the God doesn't practice partiality. So God isn't going to go easy on Christ and hard on the sinner.

[John317]

Quote:

Twilight: The scripture plainly states that God has and will destroy personally.

Quote:

Robert: Then your relationship to God will be one of fear...as in "obey and live, disobey and die".

Please show how that follows-- that one who beleives on the basis of Scripture that God will destroy the wicked directly, will NECESSARILY have a relationship to God that is "one of fear."

Do you think Moses, Joshua, David, Elisha, and the apostle Peter had a relationship with God that was based on "fear"? It's obvious that these men beleived God had destroyed the wicked directly and personally.

[Robert]

Of course it is a hideous thing. God certainly does not enjoy it, and neither will anyone else. Sin is even more hideous, however. God must put an end to sin, suffering, and death, and the only way to do it is by destroying Satan and all who follow him. God will do this "in strict justice." 12 MR 209

I might even buy God destroying sin and sinners as in Sodom and Gomorrah because of the depravity of mankind. They died instantly, but a God tortures is quite another thing. For sinners to burn many days God would have to supernaturally rejuvenate their flesh over and over to keep them in pain. That would be sadistic. Not even Hitler could do that type of torture.

[Robert]

Please show how that follows-- that one who beleives on the basis of Scripture that God will destroy the wicked directly, will NECESSARILY have a relationship to God that is "one of fear."

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse ; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM."

Now if you aren't fully obeying (and you are not), then God will curse you:

Deut 28:15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:...20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. ... 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. .... 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. .... 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. .... 45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.

As you've said, John, the law is still binding on the believer. Okay, then EGW says:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. ... He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

So, you don't fear that God will curse you? I mean you aren't measuring up and therefore you are under the curse. If that's not a fear relationship I don't know what is.....? And you know what it produces? Outward, legalistic butt kissing! Everything you do will be motivated out of fear. So you'll put on a good show so God won't destroy you. One problem: God can read through [dishonesty or insincerity]. ....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Lord said to him, "Who made the human mouth? Who makes him mute or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Okay...do you guys agree that the Lord makes folks deaf, blind and mute?

Quote:

The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish."

Does God cause diseases?

I've asked these questions many times. No answers....If God burns sinners alive for many days, then God brings diseases...He causes children to be born blind, deaf and mute. He does all these things. You can't have it both ways....

[John317]

Quote:

John317: (quoting the Spirit of prophecy): God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man.

Quote:

Robert: Jesus took the sins of all mankind. He was made sin...made a curse. We see infinite justice in the death of Christ. He took "the curse of the law", which is clearly God abandonment. God handed him over....He gave Him up. God never touched Christ...nor did He get evil men to do His biding. Why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement?

Keep in mind the God doesn't practice partiality. So God isn't going to go easy on Christ and hard on the sinner.

The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be burned up in fire (Is. 1: 28, 31; 66:24; Mal. 4: 1, 3; Matt. 13: 30, 39-42).

Question: Was Christ destroyed by fire? Do the Gospels report that fire came from God out of heaven and consumed Him? Obviously not.

Therefore, while the death of Christ does show God's condemnation of sin, and while Christ endured the abandonment of God, yet it is not true that there is a perfect parallel between Christ's experience and the experience of the finally impentenant.

The point of the statment--- "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man"--- is that we can't judge what God can do by looking to see what man can do. Ellen White is saying that's an invalid way to arrive at the truth of what God will do in the final destruction of the wicked. You may not accept Ellen White, but you should at least know what she says.

[Robert]

The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be burned up in fire (Is. 1: 28, 31; 66:24; Mal. 4: 1, 3; Matt. 13: 30, 39-42).

Yes, this is the 2nd death....It comes on the wicked because God fully abandons them and the earth, being held together for decades by the power of God, is released. God hands them over to destruction just as He did Christ. Again, here's the principle:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, I believe God can do it, has done it before, and will do it again. See the following texts: Lev. 10: 1,2; Num. 16: 35; and Rev. 20: 9.

[Guest]

Quote:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

If you read this in it's context, you will see that this is God speaking to moses, and telling him what is going to happen to the Israelites, on account of them turning to idols. It has nothing to do with the final destruction of the wicked.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert: Jesus took the sins of all mankind. He was made sin...made a curse. We see infinite justice in the death of Christ. He took "the curse of the law", which is clearly God abandonment. God handed him over....He gave Him up. God never touched Christ...nor did He get evil men to do His biding. Why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement?

Keep in mind the God doesn't practice partiality. So God isn't going to go easy on Christ and hard on the sinner.

J:The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be burned up in fire (Is. 1: 28, 31; 66:24; Mal. 4: 1, 3; Matt. 13: 30, 39-42).

Question: Was Christ destroyed by fire? Do the Gospels report that fire came from God out of heaven and consumed Him? Obviously not.

Therefore, while the death of Christ does show God's condemnation of sin, and while Christ endured the abandonment of God, yet it is not true that there is a perfect parallel between Christ's experience and the experience of the finally impentenant.

The point of the statment--- "God can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man"--- is that we can't judge what God can do by looking to see what man can do. Ellen White is saying that's an invalid way to arrive at the truth of what God will do in the final destruction of the wicked. You may not accept Ellen White, but you should at least know what she says.

You didn't address Robert's question. He asked why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement? You just explained why you believe what you believe, but didn't address Robert's question as to why God would act in such a way.

The SOP tells us that Christ suffered the death that was ours that we might live the life that was His. Given He suffered our death (i.e., the second death), there must be an equivalence involved, or the statement doesn't make sense. So given there is an equivalence, why would God act so differently in the two cases?

From Scripture, for those not wishing to rely on the SOP for this, we can reach the same conclusion from Heb. 2:8, which says that Christ tasted death for every man. Since all experience the first death for themselves, this must be referring to the second death.

[Robert]

Quote:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

If you read this in it's context, you will see that this is God speaking to moses, and telling him what is going to happen to the Israelites, on account of them turning to idols. It has nothing to do with the final destruction of the wicked.

It's the same principle....

[pnattmbtc]

John317, regarding the statement that compelling power is found only under Satan's government, you explained that you understand this mean that God does not use compelling power for the following purposes:

1.To coerce the will.

2.To win the Great Controversy.

Given that God is threatening to set people on fire, causing them to suffer torture for many hours or days, how can you say that God does not coerce the will?

I also don't see why you wouldn't think this applies to such incidents as the Egyptian plagues.

Here is "coerce" defined:

Quote:

to achieve by force or threat

Isn't this what you believe God did to Pharoah? God achieved what He wanted by force or threat. He coerced Pharaoh.

Regarding the second point, God wins the Great Controversy by revealing His character and the principles of His government. If the principles of His government include His using compelling power, I don't understand how you can assert that God doesn't use compelling power to win the Great Controversy, given that winning the Great Controversy is won by revealing the principles of God's government, and His character.

[John317]

John317, regarding the statement that compelling power is found only under Satan's government, you explained that you understand this mean that God does not use compelling power for the following purposes:

1.To coerce the will.

2.To win the Great Controversy.

Given that God is threatening to set people on fire, causing them to suffer torture for many hours or days, how can you say that God does not coerce the will?

What God does to the wicked at the end-- after Satan's wickedness has been revealed, and after all the universe argrees that he and the rest of the wicked deserve to be punished with everlasting destruction-- does not compel anyone to accept Him any more than warning people of future punishment against sin compells them to accept Him. The fact that such warnings do not compel anyone is proven by the fact that most of the people who have seen the warnings reject God.

No one says that God does not use every persuasive power available to Him to convince people to avoid being in the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. But it is not coercing the will of anyone, for millions of people decide against God despite the warnings and threats of punishment and death.

Do you beleive that God has ever compelled Satan to obey Him? Has God ever used compelling power against him? Look at 1 SM 288. Speaking of the temptations of Christ by Satan, Ellen White writes, "At the divine command of Christ [to withdraw], he was compelled to obey. He was repulsed and silenced. He had no power to enable him to withstand the peremptory dismissal. He was compelled without another word to instantly desist and to leave the world's Redeemer."

This is another positive proof that your so-called "universal principle" against God's using compelling force is not universal at all but that God has before used compelling force against Satan.

[Robert]

You didn't address Robert's question. He asked why would God act differently towards the sinner who has rejected the atonement?

Yes, John?

[Robert]

God can read through [dishonesty or insincerity]. ....

Funny, you clean this up, but you present a god that a x-rating for violence wouldn't suffice.

[Robert]

This is another positive proof that your so-called "universal principle" against God's using compelling force is not universal at all....

Dream on....

[Guest]

[Robert]