"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I fight zealously against self-righteousness, legalism, denominational pride and perfectionism. All of these are tools of the devil to sidetrack believers from the truth as it is "in Christ".

These things are fine to fight against, but you seem to define these things as anyone having a different idea than you in regards to your theories.

Oh, I see...if I say it it's my theories...if you say it is fact?

[Robert]

Children, who die before they reach the age of accountability, will be judged on the characters they would have developed had they not died.

I can't find this in the Bible...

[Robert]

The law was given for one reason and one reason only: To expose mankind's sin.

While in captivity the Jews were raised in the Egyptian religions. All pagan religions are based on appeasing an angry God in order to both rule with him and attain paradise. This is human nature.....

In order to open the eyes of the Jews to their predicament God gave the law. He never gave it to them as a means to salvation...never. The fact that sinners would stone other sinners proved that their blindness was great. Nevertheless, He accepted them where they were at....Moses simply recorded the events as he saw them. When God said "obey and live" or "disobey and die" he was right at home for he was raised with this mindset.

God takes folks where they are at...even in their sins...and tries to bring them into light. The lesson to be learned is that no one has a right to stone another because none are sinless.

This can be seen in story of the woman caught in adultery. According to the law this woman should have been stoned, but Jesus tells the self-righteous, "he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

R:I fight zealously against self-righteousness, legalism, denominational pride and perfectionism. All of these are tools of the devil to sidetrack believers from the truth as it is "in Christ".

p:These things are fine to fight against, but you seem to define these things as anyone having a different idea than you in regards to your theories.

R:Oh, I see...if I say it it's my theories...if you say it is fact?

I've not made the types of representations you have made (or others). My experience over time has humbled me in terms of making theological pronouncements, as I've discovered that things I was absolutely certain were true I no longer believe to be the case.

I see some inconsistencies in your ideas. For example, I see you have a very positive view of God's character, which I think is terrific. But then the tenor of your posts doesn't match that, which I find confusing. Also I seem some inconsistencies in terms of your view of God's character and ideas you have in regards to the atonement and justification by faith. I'm just mentioning things I've noticed. I certainly wouldn't want to present the idea that I have all the light on these subjects, however. I'm continually learning and adjusting my ideas.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

While in captivity the Jews were raised in the Egyptian religions. All pagan religions are based on appeasing an angry God in order to both rule with him and attain paradise. This is human nature.....

In order to open the eyes of the Jews to their predicament God gave the law. He never gave it to them as a means to salvation...never. The fact that sinners would stone other sinners proved that their blindness was great. Nevertheless, He accepted them where they were at....Moses simply recorded the events as he saw them. When God said "obey and live" or "disobey and die" he was right at home for he was raised with this mindset.

God takes folks where they are at...even in their sins...and tries to bring them into light. The lesson to be learned is that no one has a right to stone another because none are sinless.

This can be seen in story of the woman caught in adultery. According to the law this woman should have been stoned, but Jesus tells the self-righteous, "he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Well said.

[Archie777]

Pnatt, it looks as though we'll have to agree to disagree.

Robert, I hope you're right that all children who die before the age of accountability will be in heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

Pnatt, it looks as though we'll have to agree to disagree.

Regarding Waggoner, do you disagree that I correctly represented his position, or do you disagree with Wagoner's position?

[Archie777]

1.God did not induce them to make the covenant at Sinai.

2.Four hundred and thirty years before that time He had made a covenant with Abraham, which was sufficient for all purposes.

3.When the people came to Sinai, God simply referred them to what He had already done, saying, "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Ex.19:5.

4.To what covenant did He refer?--Evidently to the one already in existence, His covenant with Abraham.

5.The fact that they in their self-sufficiency rashly took the whole responsibility upon themselves, does not prove that God led them into making that covenant, but the contrary.

I believe Jesus and the Jews formed "another compact" at Sinai. They pledged three different times to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. This compact was but an expansion or elaboration of the everlasting covenant. It didn't replace or nullify any previous additions; instead, it incorporated them. Ellen wrote:

God's work is the same in all time, although there are different degrees of development and different manifestations of His power, to meet the wants of men in the different ages. Beginning with the first gospel promise, and coming down through the patriarchal and Jewish ages, and even to the present time, there has been a gradual unfolding of the purposes of God in the plan of redemption. The Saviour typified in the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law is the very same that is revealed in the gospel. The clouds that enveloped His divine form have rolled back; the mists and shades have disappeared; and Jesus, the world's Redeemer, stands revealed. He who proclaimed the law from Sinai, and delivered to Moses the precepts of the ritual law, is the same that spoke the Sermon on the Mount. The great principles of love to God, which He set forth as the foundation of the law and the prophets, are only a reiteration of what He had spoken through Moses to the Hebrew people: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4, 5. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18. The teacher is the same in both dispensations. God's claims are the same. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17. {PP 373.2}

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding Waggoner, do you disagree that I correctly represented his position, or do you disagree with Wagoner's position?

[Archie777]

Pnatt, does Waggoner agree that the rites and rules Jesus added at Sinai illustrate and apply the principles of the Ten Commandment?

[pnattmbtc]

I'm asking about the following:

Let's consider what Waggoner taught:

"Then did not God Himself lead them into bondage?"--Not by any means; since He did not induce them to make that covenant at Sinai. Four hundred and thirty years before that time He had made a covenant with Abraham, which was sufficient for all purposes. That covenant was confirmed in Christ, and, therefore, was a covenant from above. See John 8:23. It promised righteousness as a free gift of God through faith, and it included all nations. All the miracles that God had wrought in delivering the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage were but demonstrations of His power to deliver them and us from the bondage of sin.

Yes, the deliverance from Egypt was itself a demonstration not only of God's power, but also of His desire to lead them from the bondage of sin, that bondage in which the covenant from Sinai holds men, because Hagar, who is the covenant from Sinai, was an Egyptian. So when the people came to Sinai, God simply referred them to what He had already done, and then said, "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Ex.19:5.

To what covenant did He refer?--Evidently to the one already in existence, His covenant with Abraham. If they would simply keep God's covenant, that is, God's promise,--keep the faith,--they would be a peculiar treasure unto God, for God, as the possessor of all the earth, was able to do with them all that He had promised. The fact that they in their self-sufficiency rashly took the whole responsibility upon themselves, does not prove that God led them into making that covenant, but the contrary. He was leading them out of bondage, not into it, and the apostle plainly tells us that covenant from Sinai was nothing but bondage.

From this we see:

1.God did not induce them to make the covenant at Sinai.

2.Four hundred and thirty years before that time He had made a covenant with Abraham, which was sufficient for all purposes.

3.When the people came to Sinai, God simply referred them to what He had already done, saying, "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Ex.19:5.

4.To what covenant did He refer?--Evidently to the one already in existence, His covenant with Abraham.

5.The fact that they in their self-sufficiency rashly took the whole responsibility upon themselves, does not prove that God led them into making that covenant, but the contrary.

I'm asking two questions about the above:

1.Do you agree that my summary (the 5 points) correctly reflects Waggoner's position?

2.Do you agree with the position which was summarized?

[Archie777]

1.Do you agree that my summary (the 5 points) correctly reflects Waggoner's position?

2.Do you agree with the position which was summarized?

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

Now, for another question - Does Elliot agree with Ellen that the rites and rules Jesus added at Sinai illustrate and apply the principles of the Ten Commandment?

[pnattmbtc]

p:1.God did not induce them to make the covenant at Sinai.

2.Four hundred and thirty years before that time He had made a covenant with Abraham, which was sufficient for all purposes.

3.When the people came to Sinai, God simply referred them to what He had already done, saying, "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Ex.19:5.

4.To what covenant did He refer?--Evidently to the one already in existence, His covenant with Abraham.

5.The fact that they in their self-sufficiency rashly took the whole responsibility upon themselves, does not prove that God led them into making that covenant, but the contrary.

A:1. Yes.

2. Yes.

[Archie777]

Pnatt, I believe Jesus offered the Jews an expanded version of the everlasting covenant at Sinai. I'm not sure if Elliot agrees with Ellen regarding the additional rites and rules. The quote you posted doesn't address it.

[Archie777]

Again, the additional rules Jesus gave the Jews at Sinai included capital punishment. I believe commanding capital punishment speaks to the issue of war in heaven.

[Archie777]

PS - I'll be on assignment until the end of the month. It is unlikely I'll be able to participate on this forum. God bless each and every one as you study the truth as it is in Jesus.

[Guest]

Thanks Archie. Be careful, and we'll see you when you get back.