"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

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God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (ibid 759)

The war isn't one which is won by force.

First of all, to think so is to misunderstand the nature of the Great Controversy. The Great Controversy concerns God's character. There is no doubt that God is powerful. It's not about that. It's about if He is harsh, severe, and compels others to do His will, which is why it is important we understand the nature of sin; specifically that it inevitably results in death.

You are right that the war is not won by force, but then the expelling of Satan did not win the war.

Yet the fact is clear from the Bible that God has at times used "force," and it is clear that in the future, there will be times when God will again use force.

To say that the war is not won by the use of force is not the same as saying that God never uses force or that God has never used it at any time.

If we take that position, we must deny that God destroyed the world with a flood, etc., or that God will finally destroy the wicked. God doesn't win the war by destroying the wicked, but that is not to say that God won't destroy the wicked.

[John317]

Hi Richard-- hope you had a very happy, blessed Sabbath.

[Guest]

I did John, thank you.

[Robert]

No human except Christ was infallible, so the same thing can be said of Moses and all the rest of the prophets.

So the Bible is fallible?

[Guest]

No the prophets were

[Robert]

If we take that position, we must deny that God destroyed the world with a flood, etc., or that God will finally destroy the wicked.

That comes back to the question does God kill?

[Guest]

Of course He does, and righteously so.

[Gerr]

God kills but does not murder!

[pnattmbtc]

Of course the above paragraph doesn't deal with force being applied against Satan.

[pnattmbtc]

You are right that the war is not won by force, but then the expelling of Satan did not win the war.

[teresaq]

i think it is so very hard for us fallen beings with our dull comprehension to remember that God is not like us and that the bible was written with the human language.....

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Strong angels, with beams of light representing flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair. Adam and Eve had forfeited all right to their beautiful Eden home, and were now expelled from it. The earth was cursed because of Adam's sin, and was ever after to bring forth briers and thorns. Adam was to be exposed to the temptations of Satan while he lived, and was to finally pass through death to dust again. {RH, February 24, 1874 par. 20}

just because the bible says "war" instead of holding on to our "knowledge" of what war is, as it is here on earth, and scifi would have us believe on other worlds also, we probably need to step back and be open to the possibility that it aint what we think.

havent we believed there were literal flaming swords "threatening" adam and eve? that they were literally driven from the garden instead of sadly walking out? would adam and eve in their humbled state-after the angels told them of the plan of redemption, of Christ willing to suffer and die for them-really have made any physical effort to stay?

so when it comes to "war in heaven" perhaps we are judging according to our faulty characters and mentality and are not open to the HS leading our thoughts....

[Aliensanctuary]

Rev 20:7-10

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When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to lead astray all the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, and mobilise them for war, his armies being as many as the sands of the sea.

They came swarming over the entire country and besieged the camp of the saints, which is the beloved City. But fire rained down on them from heaven and consumed them. Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.

Armies, sieges, camp, mobilization, fire from the sky, destruction of life, torture...all these indicate the processes of war, with all of its violence, death, and destruction.

In the end, you can't be nice to evil because evil doesn't play by the rules. To destroy evil is a great act of mercy to those who want nothing to do with it, and who would continually be victimized by its acts of cruelty, selfishness, and violence.

[pnattmbtc]

It's not necessary to use the tools of evil to destroy evil. Love and truth, the prevailing powers of God's government, will accomplish this.

[Guest]

Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; {EW 145}

He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ and to defend his place in heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {SR 18.1}

[pnattmbtc]

The OP is quoting from Rev. 12. The Desire of Ages quotes from this same passage, and explains:

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"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)

She also explained earlier in the chapter that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, and that compelling power is not to found in God's government, but only in the government of the enemy.

Also we're told that Satan is ever seeking to misrepresent that character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues of the Great Controversy. If the Great Controversy were one that could be won by force, it would have been over long ago.

[John317]

... The Great Controversy concerns God's character. There is no doubt that God is powerful. It's not about that. It's about if He is harsh, severe, and compels others to do His will, which is why it is important we understand the nature of sin; specifically that it inevitably results in death.

The great controversy is about whether God is right or whether Satan is. It calls for mankind to decide whom it will serve. Would you be unable to love, resepct, and serve God if He told you directly that He compelled Satan and his evil angels to leave heaven? Or that He destroyed the world with a flood and that He will destroy Satan and all those who choose to follow the Devil?

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It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God.(GC 569; emphasis mine)

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PNATTMBTC: I find it ironic that with the examples of the Jews before our eyes in mistaking the spiritual for the physical, we so often follow in their footsteps, desiring, as they did, a militaristic victory of Christ.

I have absolutely no desire for a militaristic victory by Christ. On the contrary, I want Him to be victorious in exactly the way that the Bible portrays it-- the way the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular portray His glorious victory. How do they portray it? They show that God wins the war against Satan and evil by disproving Satan's accusations: God is indeed wise and just and loving and deserves to be worshipped and loved. His government and His laws are right, and Satan is wrong. God does this not through a military victory but by the demonstration of His love through the life, death, resurrection, and intercession of Jesus Christ, and through the lives of millions of people who once were slaves of Satan but who found freedom and salvation from Satan and sin though faith in Christ.

None of the above is contradicted by the fact that God compelled the evil angels to leave heaven, or that God destroyed the world by a flood or that He will finally destroy the wicked after the Great White Throne Judgment. God wins the war BEFORE the destruction of the wicked. The wicked will all confess that God is right and that He has been fair and just.

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Secondly, not only is the war not one which can be won by force, force itself is not a principle of God's government, but only of the enemy, as the above quote from DA 759 points out.

Please notice Ellen White sentence: "God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." DA 759.

As she said, God wins the war by truth and love; but it's a mistake to believe Ellen White means that God did not destroy the world by a flood or that God will not destroy Satan and unrepentant sinners after the end of the 1000 years.

What the Bible teaches about the flood and the final destruction of the wicked are not evidence that God does not tell the truth or that He is not love.

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Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order.

I agree completely that the rebellion in the universe was not overcome by force. It was overcome by the demonstration of God's love in the life and death and resurrection of Christ and in the salvation of untold millions of people who otherwise would have persished eternally along with Satan and his rebellious angels.

I deny that if the Bible's testimony is true-- that God destroyed the world by a flood and that He will destroy the wicked after the 1000 years-- Satan is proved to be right and God wrong. Again, the cleansing of the universe of all sin and sinners will prove God right and Satan wrong, not by compelling power but by God's trustworthiness, love, mercy, and righteousness. I do not see how this would be disproved by God's making Satan and His wicked angels leave heaven.

Would you worship Satan and believe that God should not be worshipped if you became convinced that God compelled Satan and His evil angels to depart from heaven? Would God's taking this action prove to you that God is unworthy of our worship and that Satan was right about God's character?

[wayfinder]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world ; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

John 12:31 NAS

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out (of heaven)

The Son of God demonstrated perfect obedience and was given the right to cast the devil out of heaven and redeem the righteous. The war, as such, is an oppertunity for mankind to accept the truth and obey God. The righteous kingdom and the 144,000 will show the way during the time of the seven trumpets.

[teresaq]

Would you worship Satan and believe that God should not be worshipped if you became convinced that God compelled Satan and His evil angels to depart from heaven? Would God's taking this action prove to you that God is unworthy of our worship and that Satan was right about God's character?

these might be good questions, john, but how does answering yes or no make what you believe the bible says true or not?

it is ok to "dig deeper", to question what we believe, to see if what we believe the bible says is true, is it not?

i think a better question would be, is God different from satan? if so, in what way? in other words do we know the difference between satan and Christ, other than superficially? that has everything to do with our sanctification.

[pnattmbtc]

The great controversy is about whether God is right or whether Satan is. It calls for mankind to decide whom it will serve. Would you be unable to love, respect, and serve God if He told you directly that He compelled Satan and his evil angels to leave heaven? Or that He destroyed the world with a flood and that He will destroy Satan and all those who choose to follow the Devil?

[teresaq]

John 12:31 NAS

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out (of heaven)

The Son of God demonstrated perfect obedience and was given the right to cast the devil out of heaven and redeem the righteous. The war, as such, is an oppertunity for mankind to accept the truth and obey God. The righteous kingdom and the 144,000 will show the way during the time of the seven trumpets.

david was not allowed to build a house for the Lord because he was a man of war, even tho it was God Who had ordained those wars....or so we believe.

1Ch 22:7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:

1Ch 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If we take that position, we must deny that God destroyed the world with a flood, etc., or that God will finally destroy the wicked.

That comes back to the question does God kill?

If God told you that He destroyed the world by a flood and that He compelled Satan and his evil angels to leave heaven-- just like it says in His inspired Word-- would you then choose to worship Satan? Would you then decide that God is unworthy of your trust, admiration, and worship?

To answer your question directly, the Bible is certainly clear as language can be, that God has indeed killed people.

"The Lord killed him" (Gen 38: 7); "The Lord killed him also" (Gen. 7: 10). "At mightnight the Lord killed all the first-born in the land of Egypt" (Ex. 12: 29). "The Lord overthrew [killed, defeated] the Egyptians in the midst of the sea (Ex. 14: 27; compare Ex. 15: 3,4,6 19); "And the Lord said unto Moses, 'The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp'" (Numbers 15: 35).

See also Gen. 6 to 8; esp. 7:4, 23; Numbers 16: 28-35.

The real problem is not that there is no evidence showing that God has killed but that some people don't want to accept the clear biblical statements.

We have to be willing to allow the Bible to tell us things we don't like to hear. If we're not willing to do this, we will always be distorting the Bible in order to make it conform to our ideas rather than changing our ideas to conform to the Bible.

I believe that since God made all of life, He has a right to do what He chooses to do with what He has created. Compare Genesis 6: 5-7; Romans 9: 20-23.

Don't you think God would have been within His "rights" if He had decided to allow all humanity reap the consequences of sin? He rescued us not because He felt compelled to do so by some standard or requirement but wholly because of His love and unmerited favor toward people who deserved eternal death. Since we deserved death, it is obvious that God would have been right if He had allowed us to have what we deserved.

What say you?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Would you worship Satan and believe that God should not be worshipped if you became convinced that God compelled Satan and His evil angels to depart from heaven? Would God's taking this action prove to you that God is unworthy of our worship and that Satan was right about God's character?

these might be good questions, john, but how does answering yes or no make what you believe the bible says true or not?

Because the objection has been made that if God used force to remove Satan and the fallen angels from heaven, it would show that God used force to win the great controversy. According to those making the objection, if that were true, it would mean God didn't win it by love and truth. See posts #326330 and 326644. In the latter post, it is said that if God used force to compel Satan to leave heaven, it would prove Satan right. I deny this. Hence the question whether someone who discovers that God used force to compel Satan to leave heaven would decide to worship Satan rather than God. I believe God did use force to compel Satan to leave heaven, because the Bible plainly says so, and I have no doubt that God is worthy of my love, admiration, trust, and worship. I believe God was absolutely right to do what He did in expelling-- or "throwing out"-- Satan from heaven.

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it is ok to "dig deeper", to question what we believe, to see if what we believe the bible says is true, is it not?

Yes, certainly. That is one of the main purposes for the Forum.

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i think a better question would be, is God different from satan?

Yes, He is, most definitely.

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if so, in what way? in other words do we know the difference between satan and Christ, other than superficially?

Yes, and the differences are all explained and shown clearly in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy.

A few of the differences:

God loves us and Satan hates us. God is the creator of all life and Satan the destroyer of all life. God governs by law and order and Satan governs by lawlessness. God's government is based on truth and openness and Satan's is based on lies and deception. God's ways lead to eternal life; Satan's to eternal death. Christ gave His life that sinners might repent and live eternally with Him; Satan hates sinners and want them all to be destroyed along with him.

Many other differences could be listed.

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that has everything to do with our sanctification.

It certainly does. The Scripture says we are sanctified by the truth and that the Word of God is truth. We can't be sanctified-- or made holy-- by falsehoods.

Falsehoods, of course, conflict with the word of God and with the Spirit of prophecy.

Both Ellen White's writings and the Bible use language in regard to Satan's being cast out of heaven in a way that shows unquestionably that He was forced to leave and did not agree to go willingly.

Rev. 12: 9 twice uses the Greek word, ballo (Strong's #906), meaning "to throw, cast, thrust," to describe the manner in which Satan and the evil angels left heaven. It plainly shows that Satan was compelled to leave, just as Ellen White says in her descriptions.

See its use in Rev. 2: 22; Matt. 8: 16. The Bible uses the same word to describe how Jesus drove out the evil spirits from people's bodies. When used as an aorist passive verb, it never describes something that someone does willingly but is always something that is forced on them. For instance, the Bible uses the same word to describe the wicked being "cast into the lake of fire."

As Ellen White says in various ways, Satan resisted God's will that he leave. Satan said that he would resist by "force of might, stength against strength," and there's no indication that Satan finally changed his mind and left willingly through persuasion.

[John317]

david was not allowed to build a house for the Lord because he was a man of war, even tho it was God Who had ordained those wars....or so we believe.

It wasn't that God was opposed to all the wars of David but that David got to the point where he loved killing so that he murdered many of them.

There's always been a difference between killing and murder. For instance, David killed Goliath with the blessing of God, as stated clearly in 1 Sam. 17. But David would later go on to murder Uriah in order to steal his wife Bathsheba. It was for these kinds of acts that David was said to have blood on his hands. This is proved by the fact that God allowed Solomon to build the temple even though Solomon had killed people. See 1 Kings 2: 23-46.

God's commandments to Israel in the books of Deuteronomy as well as Joshua was that they attack and kill the wicked people who inhabited Canaan. See, for instance, Deut. 25: 17-19 and Joshua 6: 21; 10: 10, 13, 30. In obeying God, people are not "murdering." Moses did not murder the people who worshipped the golden calf, and neither did Elijah commit murder when he killed the priests of Baal on Mt. Carmel. God ordered the execution of many people and He also blessed Phinehas for killing an Israelite and his whore whom this wicked man brought into his tent in front of all the people. Carefully read all of Numbers 25. Since the Bible says that God did these things, why would anyone think it impossible for God to have forced Satan to leave Heaven?

[Robert]

No the prophets were

They wrote the Bible, hence is the Bible fallible?

Rob

[Robert]

Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; {EW 145}

He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ and to defend his place in heaven by force of might, strength against strength. {SR 18.1}

Hence I must reject EGW here....You can't ground and pound God....There's no contest....God wouldn't permit violence in heaven....