pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 The context is Ellen White's explanation of why God did not destroy Satan. Her answer is that Satan's rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 The Bible says they fought. If he was leaving on his own accord, there would be no reason to fight. Show me anywhere where the Bible or SOP says that he left on his own accord. And don't tell me you deduced it from a principal. That is not how we are to study the Bible. And your super intelligent decuctions are certainly not what I use to study the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I repeat my question. What's the different you see? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 This isn't the only reason I believe as I do about these issues. The primary reason I believe as I do is because I believe that God is like Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Believing Christ to be the revelation of God leads me to understand that God will not do certain things, like setting people on fire in order to make them suffer. How do you study-- deductively or inductively? It looks like you use the deductive method, at least as far as this subject is concerned. I assume you know the difference. God is indeed like Jesus Christ but you have to study all the texts in the Bible in order to arrive at what that means. Some people conclude that everyone will be saved because they view Christ as too loving to allow anyone to be lost or destroyed. Therefore they deduce that God also will not allow anyone to be lost. I know you don't believe this way, but you must see that such people are drawing their conclusions by the same method as you are using to decide whether Satan left heaven willingly or by being "thrown out" or expelled. It seems me you are operating from the same principle. That can be dangerous. Let the Bible tell you what God is like, not simply read a verse about His being like Christ and then jumping to the concludion that He wouldn't do this or that, even though the Bible and SOP plainly teach that it's exactly what God will do. I know of people who do the same thing about the man who was stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath. They say Christ wouldn't ever do that, and therefore the God of the OT isn't the God of the New. WRONG. If the Bible and SOP plainly teach that Satan was "expelled" from, or "thrown out of," heaven, we best believe it rather than trust our own ideas about whether God would do it. God's inspired words say He did it. Is that record trustworthy or not? You decide. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Quote: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jude) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 The biggest difference is that I take the Bible as it reads, Like EGW tells us to, and you don't. I've noticed how you just spiritualize away anything that you don't want it to say, or don't think it should say. I've seen you do this before. That method of Bible study will lead you into darkness my friend. That's why EGW says what she does about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 Originally Posted By: John My own personal belief is that if an individual follows everything that Ellen White teaches, he will not be lost. I would say the same about the Bible, even though I believe the Bible does contain some "mistakes." There's just one "thing" that's necessary to follow to be saved, and that "thing" is Christ. Quote: 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.(John 5:39) Yes, this is true, but I'm talking about people who reject Ellen White's Testimonies. As Ellen White herself said, many people who reject the Testimonies eventually go on to reject the Bible and faith in Christ. Rather than do this, wouldn't you agree that it would be best to accept the so-called "errors" that are in the Testimonies? In the same way, many people who reject various books of the Bible because of unresolved "problems" which they think they see eventually go on to reject the entire Bible simply because they allowed these so-called "errors" to cause them to lose faith in the Scriptures as God's Word. Better to accept the whole Bible along with a few apparent "mistakes" or "contradictions." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 How do you study-- deductively or inductively? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jude) This text doesn't do two things. It doesn't say they didn't fight, and it doesn't say they left on their own. What it does do, is establish that they are no longer in Heaven. But we already knew that. The Bible is too deep, and to important, for me to study by my own deductions. Or anybody else's for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 He then declared that he was prepared to resist the authority of Christ, and to defend his place in heaven by force and might, strength against strength.—1SP 22. {TA 43.1} Doesn't sound like he wanted to leave heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yes, this is true, but I'm talking about people who reject Ellen White's Testimonies. As Ellen White herself said, many people who reject the Testimonies eventually go on to reject the Bible and faith in Christ. Rather than do this, wouldn't you agree that it would be best to accept the so-called "errors" that are in the Testimonies? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 Quote: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jude) They abandoned the place God created for them when they rebelled against God and refused to submit to God's laws. This does not contradict anything in the Bible or Ellen White's writings on the same topic. In fact, it completey harmonizes with all of it. When they abandoned their place, God expelled them, or threw them out of heaven, since they refused to do what He had created them for. If we refuse to obey God and choose to go on rebelling, we also will find ourselves outside of God's kingdom. See 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 and Rev. 22: 15. This was the lesson Jude was teaching us when he wrote the sixth verse. By the way, the word "left" does not indicate anything about the manner of their leaving; only that they left heaven. We must go to Revelation 12 and the SOP to learn the details of how they left their abode. There we learn that they were "expelled" and were "thrown out" after a struggle and resistence "to the point of force" against God's declaration that Satan could not stay in heaven. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 The Bible says they fought. If he was leaving on his own accord, there would be no reason to fight. Show me anywhere where the Bible or SOP says that he left on his own accord. And don't tell me you deduced it from a principal. That is not how we are to study the Bible. And your super intelligent decuctions are certainly not what I use to study the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jude) This text doesn't do two things. It doesn't say they didn't fight, and it doesn't say they left on their own. What it does do, is establish that they are no longer in Heaven. But we already knew that. The Bible is too deep, and to important, for me to study by my own deductions. Or anybody else's for that matter. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 So you're taking this quote and saying this quote overrides any and all other quotes and Bible texts that says they actually fought. That quote isn't even in the context of the war that took place in heaven. What you're doing is taking a quote out of context that is dealing with a certain subject, and applying it to a different subject all together. That method of study simply does not work. YOU are deciding which quotes are of value and which ones are not. But the fact is that you can't study that way, because they are all valuable. So you have to look at all of them. Especially those that are actually dealing with subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 The Bible says they fought. If he was leaving on his own accord, there would be no reason to fight. Excellent point, and one that is unanswerable, because there obviously would be no reason to fight if he was going to leave on his own accord. There's no indication whatever to show that Satan changed his mind and finally said, "OK, you persuaded me. I'm leaving." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I hate it when I see people spiritualize away the plain truth of the Bible and Ellen White. It must make God sick to see people doing that. After He has made it so plain, that it can be understood by all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Unaccustomed to accept God’s Word exactly as it reads, or to allow it to be its own interpreter, they read it in the light of their maxims and traditions. {CTR 226} He is seeking to teach them that the Lord's way is always to be closely followed, that His word is to be taken as it reads, and that men are not to devise and plan according to their own judgment, irrespective of His counsel. {CT 353.1} God sends them light to undeceive them, but they refuse to take the Word of God as it reads. {EV 239} We are to take the Word of God as it reads, {LHU 265} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(Jude) You asked for a text which says they left, so I gave you one. Sure it says they left, but it doesn't say how they left. Everyone knows they are no longer in heaven, so the only conclusion we could come to is that they somehow left heaven. How it happened is found in Rev. 12 and the SOP. Quote: That they weren't forced out by compelling power is made clear by the following: Quote: Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759) You evidently may have forgotten the part where Ellen White says that Satan was "expelled" and "banished from heaven," etc. See GC 500. Ellen White: "... it was decreed that with all his sympathizers he must be forever banished from the abode of bliss..." See SP vol. 4, page 318. At that point, after a war and a struggle to resist God's decree "to the point of force," "strength against strength," "Satan and all who sympathized with him were cast out." God compelled Satan and the rebellious angels to go to the earth. God did not allow them to just go wherever they pleased. That is the message of Jude 6. If you cannot justify God's compelling Satan to leave Heaven, how can you justify God's using force when He made them come to this world. Do you think they just decided they wanted to stay here in this "bottomless pit" and in "chains," as Rev. and Jude describe it? Isn't it apparent to you that God is using force to this extent? What's the difference between forcing them out of heaven and forcing them to go to a particular place for the rest of their miserable existence? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted January 25, 2010 I hate it when I see people spiritualize away the plain truth of the Bible and Ellen White. It must make God sick to see people doing that. After He has made it so plain, that it can be understood by all. Yes, it makes Him weep, for sure. And here I thought that all SDAs believed that Satan was cast out of heaven and banished by God from heaven. I'm amazed that some believe it was all voluntary. Wow. I am learning all kind of things on this Forum. An eye opener!!! Our church has some work to do, doesn't it? It shows me that our ministers need to teach and preach more on the basic doctrines of the Bible. They take it for granted that our people are in agreement on the basic doctrines when they obviously aren't. Well, I will take this up again tomorrow, God willing. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 So you're taking this quote and saying this quote overrides any and all other quotes and Bible texts that says they actually fought. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Quote: R:The Bible says they fought. If he was leaving on his own accord, there would be no reason to fight. J:Excellent point, and one that is unanswerable, because there obviously would be no reason to fight if he was going to leave on his own accord. There's no indication whatever to show that Satan changed his mind and finally said, "OK, you persuaded me. I'm leaving." Once again, this has not been suggested. I wonder how many times I need to point this out. Specifically, no one has suggested that Satan was persuaded to leave. As I specifically said, God was trying to persuade Satan to stay. Quote: R:I hate it when I see people spiritualize away the plain truth of the Bible and Ellen White. It must make God sick to see people doing that. After He has made it so plain, that it can be understood by all. Do you hate when people disregard clear statements such as "compelling power can only be found in the government of the enemy"? Quote: J:Sure it says they left, but it doesn't say how they left. Everyone knows they are no longer in heaven, so the only conclusion we could come to is that they somehow left heaven. How it happened is found in Rev. 12 and the SOP. It doesn't say how they left? What could it say? If I said, "John left his house," in order to establish the point that you left your house, could someone rightfully retort, "Sure, John left, but it doesn't say how he left." They didn't keep their first habitation. It also says that. And they left. If you were forced out of your house, say someone kicked you out, would anyone describe this by saying, "John didn't keep his place of residence. He left." Regarding Rev. 12, the SOP says: Quote: Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. This agrees with her earlier comment that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, that compelling power is only to be found in the government of the enemy, and that truth and love are the prevailing powers of God's government. God wins the battles, and the war, by truth and love, not by force. It all fits together. We see Rev. 12 speaking of a war in heaven. We read that Satan was "cast down." The SOP explains that he was "cast down" by having his influence curtailed, which was accomplished by the revelation of the truth, which unmasked him. His being cast out of heaven was accomplished by the truth being revealed. "The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken." This, which was accomplished by the revelation of truth, is what Satan's being "cast down" is referring to. I don't understand how it can be maintained that God overcame rebellion by force and used compelling power to force Satan out of heaven when we're told that rebellion was not to be overcome by force and compelling power is only found in the government of Satan. Force is not a principle of God's government. "The Lord's principles are not of this order." Neither is violence. Or killing. Or deception. Or stealing. Or anything contrary to the law of God or the life of Jesus Christ which revealed the Father. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yes, it makes Him weep, for sure. And here I thought that all SDAs believed that Satan was cast out of heaven and banished by God from heaven. I'm amazed that some believe it was all voluntary. Wow. I am learning all kind of things on this Forum. An eye opener!!! Our church has some work to do, doesn't it? It shows me that our ministers need to teach and preach more on the basic doctrines of the Bible. They take it for granted that our people are in agreement on the basic doctrines when they obviously aren't. John, I didn't say Satan wasn't cast out from heaven. I said God didn't use force to do so. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I haven't said that God persuaded him to leave either. Please don't say that again. A reason I'm saying God didn't use compelling power to expel Satan from heaven is because the SOP says that compelling power can only be found in the enemy's government, and that the Lord's principles are not of this order. Isn't that a reasonable reason for asserting this? If compelling power is only found in the government of Satan, doesn't it follow that God didn't use compelling power against Satan? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Remember that God gave Ellen White visions of what occurred in heaven. Are you claiming to know more than she did about heaven or about what happened before the creation of this earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 My theology would allow me to find Him worthy of my worship and love, whereas it seems to me that yours does not.... Sounds like a messed up theology to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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