"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

What I am saying is that it would be better to believe even the errors in the Bible than to reject the Bible because one finds some errors in it.

Errors in the Bible, hmmm? Now I see why you lift up EGW ....This is the making of a cult, John. You've gone off the deep end....If you go outside the Bible for measuring stick of truth you are on sinking sand....I made EGW the end all be all, and I became a mean-spirited legalist

Rob

[Robert]

The Bible says they fought.

Kick boxing? Boxing? Wrestling? Did they use weapons? Who got hurt, I see no record of blood being spilled.

Rob

[Robert]

1SP 22. {TA 43.1}

Non-Biblical and therefore you can't use it as a measuring stick

[Gerr]

Quote:

Lest we forget, Rev 12 concerns future events. Satan's dragonish being is not yet here. He creates rebellion and misery here from a distance. To him and his off-world comrades, we are mere ants, so easily snuffed out.

Satan not yet here? Now that's an alien thought!!! Satan creating rebellion and misery here from a distance? WHERE is he doing this from? Was not the serpent IN the Eden? Did not Satan come to Christ in person in the wilderness? Did not Christ cast out demons from demon-possessed people? If Satan and company are doing their work only from a distance, are our guardian angels doing their work only from a distance also?

[Gerr]

Quote:

She also explained earlier in the chapter that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, and that compelling power is not to found in God's government, but only in the government of the enemy.

Does this preclude ALL use of force? How then do you explain the expulsion of the Cannaanites by force at God's direction?

Quote:

Also we're told that Satan is ever seeking to misrepresent that character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues of the Great Controversy. If the Great Controversy were one that could be won by force, it would have been over long ago.

True, that's why evil is till with us. God wants the whole universe to see what a universe ruled by Satan and his principles operate and look like. But no way shape or form does it suggest that ALL use of force is therefore excluded. The Bible writers use the strongest human emotion "wrath" to describe God's antipathy towards sin. His "wrath" is NOT just a little dislike of sin or wickedness. When the Bible writer uses the strong and violent word "war" to describe an event that took place in heaven, I don't see it as just a little disagreement and Satan and his followers leaving heaven voluntarily. Taking the words of the prophet in a way other than they describe would lead one (at least me) on a dangerous path, i.e. does the Bible really mean what it says? When it says "the wages of sin is death," does it REALLY mean death? When the Bible says that God loves me, does it REALLY mean what it says?

[pnattmbtc]

p:She also explained earlier in the chapter that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, and that compelling power is not to found in God's government, but only in the government of the enemy.

G:Does this preclude ALL use of force?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Right! And if one of the statements says that compelling power is only to be found in the government of the enemy, that can't just be disregarded.

Lucifer and his followers were compelled to leave, but were they compelled to believe?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

p:She also explained earlier in the chapter that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, and that compelling power is not to found in God's government, but only in the government of the enemy.

G:Does this preclude ALL use of force?

Yes, of course! That's what "the Lord's principles are not of this order" means. That should be obvious.

You are making EGW's comments take precedence over what the Bible says instead of the other way around. That's a dangerous notion.

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Does this sound like no force was used?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Would your theology allow you to find God worthy of your worship and love if He lied? Or stole? Or were devious? Or dishonest?

'I [God] will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.

Check your source, please, because a lying spirit seems to be in your quote.

[BobRyan]

{SR 18.2}

Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of heaven, and His loyal angels engaged in conflict with the archrebel and those who united with him. The Son of God and true, loyal angels prevailed; and Satan and his sympathizers were expelled from heaven. All the heavenly host acknowledged and adored the God of justice. Not a taint of rebellion was left in heaven. All was again peaceful and harmonious as before. Angels in heaven mourned the fate of those who had been their companions in happiness and bliss. Their loss was felt in heaven

White, E. G. (1947; 2002). The Story of Redemption (18). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

Does this sound like no force was used?

[BobRyan]

The Bible says "there was WAR in heaven".

Turns out -- the Bible is right.

[John317]

Quote:

R:The Bible says they fought. If he was leaving on his own accord, there would be no reason to fight.

J:Excellent point, and one that is unanswerable, because there obviously would be no reason to fight if he was going to leave on his own accord. There's no indication whatever to show that Satan changed his mind and finally said, "OK, you persuaded me. I'm leaving."

Once again, this has not been suggested. I wonder how many times I need to point this out. Specifically, no one has suggested that Satan was persuaded to leave. As I specifically said, God was trying to persuade Satan to stay.

It says clearly that God decreed that the fallen angels would have to leave Heaven, and then these angels fought against God's decree, after which they were expelled from Heaven.

The Bible doesn't portray God as trying to persuade Satan to stay in heaven. After Lucifer became the Devil, or Satan, God decreed that he and his evil followers were banished from Heaven.

When someone is banished, it means they have to leave whether they want to or not.

Ellen White uses both words, "banished," and "expelled." When someone is "expelled," are they asked if they want to go? No, they are forced to go. That is the meaning of both terms. The passive verb, ballo, means "to be thrown out," etc., and is not a word that's ever used to refer to something someone does willingly. Does it make sense to you to say that he was "thrown out" or "banished" or "expelled" willingly?

If God never uses "force" or compels anyone to do anything, how is it that God forced the angels to come to this world? Or do you think that God asked them if they want to come here?

Check out 2 Peter 2: 4 and Jude 6. Aren't those verses referring to God's use to force in reference to the evil angels? How do you explain that?

[pnattmbtc]

The biggest difference is that I take the Bible as it reads, Like EGW tells us to, and you don't.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Right! And if one of the statements says that compelling power is only to be found in the government of the enemy, that can't just be disregarded.

Lucifer and his followers were compelled to leave, but were they compelled to believe?

[pnattmbtc]

You are making EGW's comments take precedence over what the Bible says instead of the other way around. That's a dangerous notion.

[pnattmbtc]

It says clearly that God decreed that the fallen angels would have to leave Heaven, and then these angels fought against God's decree, after which they were expelled from Heaven.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What I am saying is that it would be better to believe even the errors in the Bible than to reject the Bible because one finds some errors in it.

Errors in the Bible, hmmm? Now I see why you lift up EGW ....This is the making of a cult, John. You've gone off the deep end....If you go outside the Bible for measuring stick of truth you are on sinking sand....I made EGW the end all be all, and I became a mean-spirited legalist

Out of thousands of ancient manuscripts of the NT, there are no two manuscripts that are precisely the same. There have been things added and things taken out.

When I speak of "errors" in this context, I'm talking about what some people consider to be "errors," or "mistakes" or contradictions.

You are apparently misunderstanding everything I'm saying. Ellen White is not the measuring stick; the Bible is.

The Bible is God's inspired Word and is infallible as a guide to God's will, to salvation, and the truth about God.

Ellen White is not the "end all be all" for me and never has been. I believe her to be a genuine prophet of God the same a Jack Sequeira believes. I don't ignore what God's prophet says but neither do I make her something that she was not nor ever claimed to be-- an infallible human being who never made errors. As she herself often said, she was a sinner in need of the Savior.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Trial and persecution will come to all who, in obedience to the Word of God, refuse to worship this false sabbath. Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. (7SDABC 976)

Unfortunately, this is how many perceive God to be. During this lifetime He is apparently kind, and tries attraction. But if that fails, then the flames of the furnace await.

"Force is the last resort of every false religion."

Does God resort to the same means as "every false religion"? Or is it possible that "the Lord's principles are not of this order" and "compelling power is only to be found in the government of Satan."?

I really don't understand how this can be thought to mean that sometimes God uses compelling power. If God sometimes uses compelling power, then, clearly, it's not only to be found in the government of Satan.

[John317]

Quote:

If God never uses "force" or compels anyone to do anything, how is it that God forced the angels to come to this world?

He didn't. There were trees of the knowledge of good and evil on all the worlds with sentient beings. Satan was free to go to any of these, and did, but they all refused. This world accepted, so he set up his kingdom here. He wasn't forced to come here. He came here because he wanted to, to win converts to his cause.

Where does either the Bible or Ellen White say that Satan is free to go wherever he wants to go?

2 Peter 2: 5 shows that God used force on the fallen angels:

"For God did not spare even the angels when they sinned; he threw them into Tartaros, in chains of gloom and darkness until the judgment day." Compare Jude 6: "And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the day of judgment."

Check out these verses in your Bible and see if they show that the angels are free to go wherever they like.

Let me know your Bible evidence that the angels are free to go wherever they want to go. Please give any references that you know of which show this.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

My theology would allow me to find Him worthy of my worship and love, whereas it seems to me that yours does not....

Sounds like a messed up theology to me....

Are you saying that if God destroyed the world by a flood as the Bible says or if God destroys Satan and the rest of the wicked after the 1000 years, you would consider God evil and not want to worship and serve Him?

[Dr. Rich]

To understand the war that was in heaven, one must look at verse 17 of Revelation 12. Here we see that a war will be made by Satan against humans that have been born again by the Holy Spirit. Then by reading what happens in Revelation you will see that this war is not one fought with weapons, but truth verses lies.

Therefore, since fiction or lies could not be associated with heaven, those angels that were supporting Satan's lies had to be thrown out of heaven and to this earth where sin originated with Satan.

I find it interesting that for the last five months of this earth's time, Satan is trying to kill (physically) the two holy witnesses and can't. We don't see anyplace were the two holy witnesses were trying to kill Satan, or for that matter anyone else, but we do see that they were presenting truth to a world full of lies. Only at the end of the 5 months (new moons) at or near the fall equinox, was Satan given power to kill these two holy witnesses and their bodies lay in the streets for 3 and a half days until called to heaven. Then the next thing that happens is the Jesus comes in the clouds.

To my way of understanding, the war with Evil in Heaven was like a court battle--truth verses fiction.

[John317]

I've quoted them a number of times on this thread already. Check out the post I wrote just prior to this one.

Where's your Bible? I keep mine with me all the time and especially while I'm at the computer writing and studying about the Scriptures.

[John317]

Quote:

I don't understand this technique of quoting heavily from the SOP to make a point, and then when someone else does it, complaining that Scripture doesn't teach this. Do we wish to have a discussion only on the basis of Scripture? If so, OK. Or do we wish to include the SOP? If so, OK. But let's not quote from her on the one hand, and then complain when others quote from her on the other.[/quote']

You misunderstand. I'm not complaining at all. I agree with Ellen White. I'm just observing that the Bible says nothing about God trying to persuade the Devil to remain in Heaven. And Ellen White shows that after trying to get Lucifer to repent and change, once Lucifer refused to obey God, God decreed that Satan and his followers were "banished from Heaven." You make it sound like God did not tell Satan that he had to leave, but that is certainly not the way the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy portray it.

[pnattmbtc]

Where does either the Bible or Ellen White say that Satan is free to go wherever he wants to go?

2 Peter 2: 5 shows that God used force on the fallen angels:

"For God did not spare even the angels when they sinned; he threw them into Tartaros, in chains of gloom and darkness until the judgment day." Compare Jude 6: "And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the day of judgment."

[pnattmbtc]

J:Check out 2 Peter 2: 4 and Jude 6. Aren't those verses referring to God's use to force in reference to the evil angels? How do you explain that?

p:What do these verses say?

J:I've quoted them a number of times on this thread already. Check out the post I wrote just prior to this one.

Where's your Bible? I keep mine with me all the time and especially while I'm at the computer writing and studying about the Scriptures.

It's a matter of courtesy to quote things being cited. I think pretty much everyone does this. I do this when I write posts to you. If you'd like me to comment on the verses, you may quote them. Or just say what they say from memory if you wish (if it's not convenient to copy/paste, for example).