Environmentalism and Adventist Stewardship

[karl]

Wow, only over 10 percent is gone. No big deal. I have a feeling that if 10% of America was wiped out we would be significantly more upset.

The forests are alive and well, Sivart. They will outlast us. If you don't believe me, go to Brazil and see for yourself.

The primary reason for clearing forest is population expansion. Environmentalists have feared for years that population growth would kill nature. This is why many of them are anti-human. Jacques Cousteau was a prime example, calling for the depopulation if the earth.

He will get his wish. A number of nations today are experiencing population decline, stretching from North Asia (Japan) through to Eastern Europe through Russia including Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Armenia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, and now Italy. Countries rapidly approaching population decline (but currently still growing, albeit slowly) include Greece, Spain, Cuba, Uruguay, Denmark, Finland, Austria and Lesotho.

Many nations in Western Europe (and the EU as a whole) today would have declining populations if it were not for international immigration. The total population of the continent of Europe (including Russia and other non-EU countries) already peaked around the year 2000 and is currently declining. Japan began depopulating in 2005; Japan's situation is related to low fertility rates and an extremely low level of immigration.

The forests will outlive this. The forests in the US have outlived the population climbing from less than a million to 300 million. Our population will peak in 2050 and then start declining. The same will happen in China. Meanwhile, our forests are OK. Are you suffering in your area from a lack of trees? Move to Arkansas. We've got you covered.

The rainforest will actually take back its territory when the population falls and areas are abandoned. I see reforestation happening right here in Arkansas. I know it can happen in rain forests, where the jungle is even more persistent.

Right now, people need whatever land is cleared to live on, grow crops, develop industry. Let them do what they need to do and believe that God will provide.

[Woody]

Quote:

"putting on the dog" with my ride

I conserve by havin' me dog do the drivin' ... I'm just along for the ride.

[olger]

I love the environment:

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Revelation says that God is going to distroy the distroyers of the earth. Also many texts talk about the scortching sun and how the 144,000 no longer are scorched by the sun and will hunger and thurst any more.

Interesting how the Christians are downplaying global warming and siding with the corporations.

Always always always follow the money and the power trail.

Global warming (and cooling) are not man made phenomena. But they are handy excuses for enslaving people in the name of "the common good."

Socialists would have us believe that capitalism rapes the earth, yet government is hugely wasteful and socialism always gives us more government (for those of you who still believe in the tooth fairy and in the goodness of government, socialism is all about the centralization of power which rarely has a benevolent outcome.)

Although there are instances of private owners' disregard for the environment, in general, good environmental stewardship is also good financial stewardship. The idea that government control of property in a country will be more environmentally sound than private control of property is a myth sponsored by those who believe in the benevolence of government and those who want to use these shallow thinkers in order to gain power themselves.

I offer you the socialist disaster of Chernobyl as people's evidence #1. As people's evidence #2, I offer you all the socialist third world countries which are being given a "pass" on environmental controls (because they're already under control of the socialists, so who needs to go after them. The only countries this is really aimed at are the countries where there are still vestiges of freedom remaining.)

Neither governments nor corporations are "caring" entities.

People care.

And the only way you can get the caring of people to be operative is with private (not corporate or government) ownership and control of property.

So, when you are pitting socialism against corporate greed, both of these options are losers for the environment, but, in general, corporations do a better job because they have to make a profit. Government doesn't. It can just make a mess and moth-ball it.

Karl sounding real good.

olger

[karl]

Revelation says that God is going to distroy the distroyers of the earth. Also many texts talk about the scortching sun and how the 144,000 no longer are scorched by the sun and will hunger and thurst any more.

Interesting how the Christians are downplaying global warming and siding with the corporations.

Should we make some kind of environmental doctrine out of this?

The Revelation quote about God destroying them that destroy the earth is apocalyptic. It is given in the context of God (not man) destroying the earth, and it could easily mean that God destroys the earth because of unrepentant sinners.

This is NOT a plea for you to go out and use a flamethrower on your lawn. It is a plea to recognize the healing ability God built into nature and to recognize that God still works in His creation.

God's creative energy upholds the universe. He didn't just make this thing and walk away. He remains active in His creation.

He covers the sky with clouds; he supplies the earth with rain and makes grass grow on the hills. He provides food for the cattle and for the young ravens when they call. Psalm 147:8, 9

As we realize our dependence upon God for both temporal and spiritual blessings, we may offer up fervent and effectual prayer. Our great need is in itself an argument that pleads most eloquently in our behalf. Our wants, our joys, our sorrows, our cares, our fears, we may present before God. We cannot weary Him, we cannot burden his heart. Nothing is too great for Him to bear; for He upholds the worlds and rules the universe. Nothing is too small for his notice. He notices the sparrow's fall, and numbers the hairs of our heads.

[SivartM]

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because God takes care of nature, we should not worry about our environmental impact?

[olger]

"The Revelation quote about God destroying them that destroy the earth is apocalyptic. It is given in the context of God (not man) destroying the earth, and it could easily mean that God destroys the earth because of unrepentant sinners."

Absolutely !!

Them which destroy the earth is theologically reminiscent of Genesis 6:6-5, 11-13).

Psalm 140:11

Proverbs 10:30

Eccl. 8:14

The "Gangreens" desire a verse to support their new-age earth worship, while at the same time they overleap Romans 1. (In my humble opinion)

regards

g

[abelisle]

"The "Gangreens" desire a verse to support their new-age earth worship, while at the same time they overleap Romans 1. (In my humble opinion)"

I'm baffled. What is the connection with being concerned about caring for our environment and Romans 1? Why the name-calling and why the stereotyping of environmentalists as "new-age earth worshippers?" How does this mindset enhance the image of Adventism we want to present to the world?

Just my humble opinion.

Your brother in Christ

Alex

[karl]

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because God takes care of nature, we should not worry about our environmental impact?

[olger]

Dear Alex (baffled). I apologize..

"Gangreens" is a personal metaphor that I use to catalog radical environmentalists. I don't place grandmas who recycle the newspaper in that category.

As to Romans 1, there is a conspicuous description of people who "worship created things more than the Creator..." This prophecy is fulfilled in the au courant green movement (I have studied this movement for 4.5 years now).

As to our witness to the world, it is my observation that Environmentalism is the fastest growing religion in the world, indeed the principal rival of Christianity.

Just as in evolution, one must avoid trying to synthesize opponents.

In summary:

Butterflies flap their wings, but environmentalists do not blame them for causing hurricanes, they blame people." If theoretically preventing hurricanes justifies impoverishing people (and thus causing premature deaths), wouldn't it also justify killing butterflies?

blessings,

oG

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because God takes care of nature, we should not worry about our environmental impact?

Please quote me if I say something as ludicrous as what you suggest above. I'll be glad to eat those kinds of words.

I'm not sure what part of "please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you" is so inflammatory... usually when people say things like that it means something like, "I am not quite sure what you are saying; might you please clarify?" But apparently it has a hidden meaning that I have yet to learn. Thank you for enlightening me.

And I live out in the middle of nowhere. I don't think the earth is overpopulated at all. And I still don't think we should be tearing down 10% of the rainforest (even if it will grow back maybe hopefully) or pouring pollutants into the atmosphere. I can't fathom why anyone would think that that's somehow necessary, as people lived for thousands of years without doing the widespread environmental damage we're doing today.

[abelisle]

Am I glad God gave me a wife! She always points me in the right way and makes me think more clearly. Surely God knew what he was doing when He made Eve for Adam (except for that bad choice she made )

My wife said to me this morning, "You know what. I'm going to help make a children's story for you when you do that stewardship sermon and it's going to be about endangered animals." My immediate reaction was "Animals? What do they have to do with stewardship?" and then I realized that God intended for us to take care of them too.

Thanks wifey.

Alex

[karl]

I live out in the middle of nowhere. I don't think the earth is overpopulated at all. And I still don't think we should be tearing down 10% of the rainforest (even if it will grow back maybe hopefully) or pouring pollutants into the atmosphere. I can't fathom why anyone would think that that's somehow necessary, as people lived for thousands of years without doing the widespread environmental damage we're doing today.

Everyone who hates technology is welcome to go back to medieval times. It is possible. The Amish would welcome you, but alas, they have succumbed in many ways to the lure of technology also. We have some wonderful Mennonite farmers in our area who are doing their best to keep things simple, but cell phones have forced their ways into their pockets. Diesel tractors have replaced horse-drawn plows.

My point is that the earth is not destroyed. Not even close.

I believe this earth could quite possibly see nuclear warfare. Perhaps in our lifetimes. I am opposed to nuclear bombs. I am not opposed to nuclear power plants. But mostly I am opposed to governments keeping people from being productive. This is the number one cause of poverty.

Do you realize that the principle of being "secure in our property," upon which so many of our other freedoms depend, has been ground into the dust for many years? Yes. Property tax is a defacto rent that you must pay on your land. You no longer own your land. It can be taken from you if you don't pay your rent (tax.) This, as well as all the other "good" your tax-and-spend politicians want to do to you is being bolstered by environmentalism. The environmentalists want you to have no rights whatever over your property.

In the environmentalist mind, humans are the most despicable form of life on earth.

How can Christians develop an accord with this kind of philosophy? They can't. They need to look carefully at the facts, reject the slogans, and develop a sound sense of stewardship which recognizes and invites the intervention and sustenance of God for His creation. Remember, God gave us Jesus.

[abelisle]

I'm curious about the reactionary rhetoric being expressed by some, like you karl, on this thread? I don't remember labeling myself at any time as an "environmentalist" but if anything an Adventist Christian who is concerned that we give hardly any credence to environmental issues when we speak about stewardship.

This isn't about the political agenda of the environmentalist movement. This is rather an attempt to have a discussion about why does the Adventist church focus solely on finances when it comes to discussing stewardship issues?

As I just mentioned in an earlier post, endangered animals are on the rise (or is this some sort of political conspiracy also?) Surely we as Christians can try to do our part in making this planet more hospitable for the animal kingdom?

If anything can be achieved by having this discussion, it would be for Adventists to have a more wholesome and holistic mindset of what God has provided for us on this planet. Who knows? maybe even our spiritual lives may be enhanced?

Your brother in Christ

Alex (no slogans here - just the Bible)

[karl]

Stop using toilet paper. It will save trees. Use a bidet. It will keep you clean...

Please use toilet paper and do not try to save trees. Here in Arkansas we grow trees as a crop. They are a renewable resource.

Please support our paper industry and our tree farming here in Arkansas.

Use paper.

[phkrause]

I'm curious about the reactionary rhetoric being expressed by some, like you karl, on this thread? I don't remember labeling myself at any time as an "environmentalist" but if anything an Adventist Christian who is concerned that we give hardly any credence to environmental issues when we speak about stewardship.

This isn't about the political agenda of the environmentalist movement. This is rather an attempt to have a discussion about why does the Adventist church focus solely on finances when it comes to discussing stewardship issues?

As I just mentioned in an earlier post, endangered animals are on the rise (or is this some sort of political conspiracy also?) Surely we as Christians can try to do our part in making this planet more hospitable for the animal kingdom?

If anything can be achieved by having this discussion, it would be for Adventists to have a more wholesome and holistic mindset of what God has provided for us on this planet. Who knows? maybe even our spiritual lives may be enhanced?

Your brother in Christ

Alex (no slogans here - just the Bible)

Good post Alex and a very good question. I think some don't look t it as doing what it says in the Bible, like you mentioned in another post about Betty saying something about animals. God did ask us to take care of this earth and all the animals period. Seems pretty plain to me. I take my walk almost everyday, and I bring a garbage bag with me and pick up all the trash that I find on my walk. I guess people always think that when someone mentions anything about environment that there must be an agenda behind it. Very small minds, I say.

pk

[karl]

I'm curious about the reactionary rhetoric being expressed by some, like you karl, on this thread? I don't remember labeling myself at any time as an "environmentalist" but if anything an Adventist Christian who is concerned that we give hardly any credence to environmental issues when we speak about stewardship.

Your brother in Christ

Alex (no slogans here - just the Bible)

I like very much your concern about maintenance of the body. We understand that the USE of the body and mind is necessary for good health.

I'd like to see concern for the planet to take a similar focus - that using the resources God has provided is what He wants us to do. Put them to work. God made this environment for man.

I'd like for Adventists to understand that God didn't just make enough for us, He provided a superabundance. When you eat a grapefruit, those seeds in each fruit are potential trees that can provide thousands more grapefruit.

I'd like for Adventists to have faith in God as the Sustainer of nature, not just as its Creator. The environment you see around you is what derived from the near-total destruction of the pre-flood environment. Think about that a minute, just in case you were worried about the resilience of the earth or about God's ability to provide plenty in spite of destruction.

I'd like to see Adventists understand that there is a lot of disinformation out there about the environment. We need to think critically about these things rather than accepting gullibly the statements of those who really do not love their fellow man and who would use environmental issues to deprive us of our rights.

The most environmentally friendly thing each of us can do is to use the energy, talents, and strength we've been given to better the lot of ourselves and our fellow man, spiritually, physically and emotionally.

[karl]

And I still don't think we should be tearing down 10% of the rainforest (even if it will grow back maybe hopefully) or pouring pollutants into the atmosphere. I can't fathom why anyone would think that that's somehow necessary, as people lived for thousands of years without doing the widespread environmental damage we're doing today.

It is easy, I guess, to care about something as far away as the rainforest. Did you pay attention to what I posted about the forests? People don't clear out acres of forest for the fun of it. It is a LOT of work. They do it because they need the space for living, growing crops, etc. And do we, as armchair wiseguys, have the right to go over there and tell them they can't make life better for themselves?

Did you do the math? The current clearing of the rainforest, according to the UN, is taking place at between 0.025% and 0.04% per year. Let's take the higher number and apply it until the population of the earth starts falling in 2050. Let's see now, forty years at 0.04% per year is 1.6% more of the rainforest we will lose.

Deal with it. It's not your forest.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Deal with it. It's not your forest.

But it's his world just as much as it is yours. Deal with it, bud.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Karl

Deal with it. It's not your forest.

But it's his world just as much as it is yours. Deal with it, bud.

No, the world belongs to neither of us.

Herein lies the fallacy and the evil of gobalism - that we can claim somebody in Brazil is harming us and thus prevent them from developing their property in a way that will benefit them.

This is just plain wrong. Christians should have no part of this.

If you want undeveloped land, you do it on your own property. Don't try to force somebody else to do it for your benefit.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Stop using toilet paper. It will save trees. Use a bidet. It will keep you clean...

Please use toilet paper and do not try to save trees. Here in Arkansas we grow trees as a crop. They are a renewable resource.

Please support our paper industry and our tree farming here in Arkansas.

Use paper.

Is support of Arkansas'natural resources the only reason for using paper, Karl????

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

No, the world belongs to neither of us.

Herein lies the fallacy and the evil of gobalism - that we can claim somebody in Brazil is harming us and thus prevent them from developing their property in a way that will benefit them.

This is just plain wrong. Christians should have no part of this.

If you want undeveloped land, you do it on your own property. Don't try to force somebody else to do it for your benefit.

And don't you try to tell *me* what I can and can not do. You're not my boss.

Originally Posted By: Karl

fallacy and the evil of gobalism

Never heard of gobalism...anything like gobsmacking?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Pam wrote "Stop using toilet paper. It will save trees. Use a bidet. It will keep you clean..."

Please use toilet paper and do not try to save trees. Here in Arkansas we grow trees as a crop. They are a renewable resource.

Please support our paper industry and our tree farming here in Arkansas.

Use paper.

Is support of Arkansas'natural resources the only reason for using paper, Karl????

Well, no. There is the issue of the general lack of bidets in restrooms and the resultant mess and stink associated with not using paper in these deficient restrooms that have been found lacking in French plumbing.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Karl's right. Outhouses in Arkansas don't have bidets.

[karl]

Karl's right. Outhouses in Arkansas don't have bidets.

Yes, but we have romanticized our medieval condition and are clearly in line with the retro nature of environmentalism. Outhouses for everyone!!!

Your indoor plumbing is destroying the rain forest. Off with your head!