Environmentalism and Adventist Stewardship

[doug yowell]

Do you think the UN is the Image to the Beast? What current organization better fits the Biblical description? It is supranational, just like the RC church was, and it tries to affect the decisions of nations on moral grounds. And it is headquartered here in the US.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed . 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live . 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak , and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed .

[doug yowell]

Worshiping the creation rather than the creator is a sin (Romans 1: 25), but so is ignoring God's command to care for our fellow man and God's creation (Genesis 2:15, Luke 12:47-48 and Rev 11:18).

No matter the general persuasion of the congregation, the focus should be on commands God gave long before there were conservative or progressive stereotypes.

In Genesis 1:28 we were told to populate the earth and subdue it. This command existed before Adam and Eve fell into sin. The timing means that the term "subdue" does not mean harsh or overbearing rule, but to govern wisely.

]What about the freedom of choice? Doesn't every person answer only to God for their choice to destroy the environment or to protect it? I'm tired of all these right wing extremists trying to tell me what to do with my own backyard. Pave paradise and put up a parking lot!!!

[karl]

Karl, are you suggesting that there are plans afoot to impose the death penalty on everyone who exceeds their carbon footprint? A secret Obama plan? Isn't the US already seen as a primitive nation by the Europeans because we still have a death penalty? I think that the UN has more influence on us than vice-versa. But.....we digress!

The Bible says first it will be a restriction on buying and selling. Death penalty comes later.

Doug, seriously now. Are there not already attempts to restrict buying and selling based on carbon footprint? You know there are. Big, international plans. Kyoto Treaty. Cap and Trade.

The earliest concrete plan for a new world organization was begun under the aegis of the U.S. State Department in 1939. Franklin D. Roosevelt first coined the term 'United Nations' as a term to describe the Allied countries. The term was first officially used on January 1, 1942 when 26 governments signed the Atlantic Charter, pledging to continue the war effort. On 25 April 1945, the UN Conference on International Organization began in San Francisco, attended by 50 governments and a number of non-governmental organizations involved in drafting the Charter of the United Nations. The UN officially came into existence on 24 October 1945 upon ratification of the Charter by the five permanent members of the Security Council—France, the Republic of China, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States—and by a majority of the other 46 signatories.

The UN is headquartered in the US. It was created at the instigation of the US, and the US funds the lion's share of the UN budget.

It fits.

[SivartM]

What about the freedom of choice? Doesn't every person answer only to God for their choice to destroy the environment or to protect it? I'm tired of all these right wing extremists trying to tell me what to do with my own backyard. Pave paradise and put up a parking lot!!!

Don't you mean left-wing extremists? The right-wing ones are complaining like you. Boo-hoo, someone doesn't want other people to pollute. The tragedy of it all. Next thing you know they'll be enforcing anti-murder laws.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

What about the freedom of choice? Doesn't every person answer only to God for their choice to destroy the environment or to protect it? I'm tired of all these right wing extremists trying to tell me what to do with my own backyard. Pave paradise and put up a parking lot!!!

Don't you mean left-wing extremists? The right-wing ones are complaining like you. Boo-hoo, someone doesn't want other people to pollute. The tragedy of it all. Next thing you know they'll be enforcing anti-murder laws.

Ok, stop the name-calling. There are serious questions here.

The Clean Water Act, under the ruse of protecting wetlands, can fine you and put you away for doing on your own property what beavers do naturally in the wild.

You environmentalists need to explain that to me.

How can a dam built by beavers for beavers be pronounced good, while a dam built by humans for humans is pronounced bad?

[SivartM]

Beavers pour toxins into bodies of water? That's news to me.

[karl]

Beavers pour toxins into bodies of water? That's news to me.

The question was about dams. Nice sidestep.

Humans are bad. Other creatures are good.

I guess the Christian equivalent to the evolutionist environmentalist manifesto could be: "God didn't make this planet for sinful humans. He made it for the innocent animals."

[SivartM]

You called the Clean Water Act a "ruse". I assumed that meant the entire act, not just dams, which I know nothing about and therefore can't make a statement on.

[karl]

You called the Clean Water Act a "ruse". I assumed that meant the entire act, not just dams, which I know nothing about and therefore can't make a statement on.

Try to read what the post actually says, Sivart, and then comment on that. This is not to say that you can't bring up anything you want. I'm all for that. But I'm not going to assist you in pretending that your comment about some other aspect of the Clean Water Act is a germane response to my comment about dams.

[olger]

I was going to read this thread and then I remembered I had some tires to burn out by the fence row. Be back after that chore is done...

[Guest]

First things first olger, That's what I always say. I've got some tires to burn too, but it looks like I will have to wait till it stops raining. I guess I could go find a good place to dump all that oil though. It's been accumulating for a couple years.

[karl]

First things first olger, That's what I always say. I've got some tires to burn too, but it looks like I will have to wait till it stops raining. I guess I could go find a good place to dump all that oil though. It's been accumulating for a couple years.

Olger and Richard, you guys are not helping. While it is difficult to understand the environmentalist belief that something that came out of the ground can pollute the ground (oil,) you are deliberately irritating self-inflicted injuries in the environmentalist psyche.

While I think all environmentalists should have to visit Prince William Sound and see the absolute zero permanent impact of the Valdez spill, we need to be tender with their delicate sensibilities about things like dumping a few quarts of oil.

[Guest]

Hey Pam, that was a pretty good idea you had about dumping it in the sewer drain. I was going to quote you but I can't find it now. The only problem with that is that I live out in the country, and we don't have any sewer drains out here. I would have to take it into the city to do that.

It was a good idea though. I guess I could take it down to the Yadkin River. That's only a couple hundred yards away.

[Guest]

we need to be tender with their delicate sensibilities about things like dumping a few quarts of oil.

Sorry karl, I'll try to be more sensitive.

[olger]

Back !!

Happy to report that the tire sacrifice was a great success.

Karl, last I heard Moses & Aaron were being served citations for burning without a permit. God be with them...

g

[olger]

Thanks Sivart!

My sermon will be more of a conversation between myself an another elder discussing the key elements of both sides of the stewardship message. He will focus of the traditional financial piece and I'm going to try to focus on the Biblical underpinnings that speak to conservation of both the Earth and our bodies (an interesting articulation with our health message)

Your link is very useful!

Alex

Hey abelisle. What is your opinion of Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt etc? Seems like they have some environmental fer-vor as well.

regards,

g

[SivartM]

If it is too hard for you to understand that just because something comes out of the ground it is not necessarily good to pour it into environments which are not accustomed to being covered in it, try to imagine a very large oil spill. Imagine that you have to clean up this mess that someone else made. And then listen to the intellectually superior people tell you to stop telling them what to do with their oil in their ocean.

Or, if you'd like, imagine that I am your neighbor and I am burning tires right under your window, which is stuck so that you cannot shut it. I'm sure you would be perfectly satisfied to inhale known carcinogens just because they are my tires being burned on my land and you tree-hugging extremists can't tell me what to do.

Sometimes people have to be told what to do because otherwise they'd be burning tires all over the place. Which is why we have pollution laws. Most people have apparently not figured out that what they do actually affects other people. Shocking, I know.

[karl]

try to imagine a very large oil spill.

You mean, like the Valdez? Here is what we have learned from dumping millions of gallons directly into the water. In many instances, the efforts to clean it up were more damaging than just leaving it alone.

http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/topic_subtopic_entry.php?RECORD_KEY%28entry_subtopic_topic%29=entry_id,subtopic_id,topic_id&entry_id(entry_subtopic_topic)=261&subtopic_id(entry_subtopic_topic)=13&topic_id(entry_subtopic_topic)=1

The cruise ships still go to Prince William Sound every year. Visitors can see spectacular, unspoiled vistas of islands surrounded by blue-green waters and mountain-rimmed fjords.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In many instances, the efforts to clean it up were more damaging than just leaving it alone.

That's an illogical statement. If the area was cleaned up, how would you know that leaving it alone would have been better? You can postulate it, perhaps, but that would be the best you could do.

[SivartM]

So if we want to do something with nature, we can do whatever we want, but if we make a big mess, let it alone and don't mess with it!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So if we want to do something with nature, we can do whatever we want, but if we make a big mess, let it alone and don't mess with it!

That's what Karl seems to think. It's certainly not what I said.

[SivartM]

I know, I was replying to him. I just posted after you. :)

[doug yowell]

I was going to read this thread and then I remembered I had some tires to burn out by the fence row. Be back after that chore is done...

What was your home address again, Olger? I have a few "friends" who'd be interested in how, eh.......they could burn their tires too.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Karl

In many instances, the efforts to clean it up were more damaging than just leaving it alone.

That's an illogical statement. If the area was cleaned up, how would you know that leaving it alone would have been better? You can postulate it, perhaps, but that would be the best you could do.

Go to that web site and read it. Firing from the hip like this is not useful.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Karl

In many instances, the efforts to clean it up were more damaging than just leaving it alone.

That's an illogical statement. If the area was cleaned up, how would you know that leaving it alone would have been better? You can postulate it, perhaps, but that would be the best you could do.

it looks like its saying that they were trying to clean it up but just made it worse. perhaps in leaving it alone, "nature" (or God) took care of the problem?