If you were to leave the Adventist church, where would you go?

[cardw]

Well I can tell you where I went. I went everywhere and anywhere I wanted. There is a lot of wonderfulness out there contrary to the myths told to us growing up as Adventists.

[John317]

Satan hates all humanity, but especially Christians who love Jesus and His truth. We know that Satan makes SDAs his special target because he knows that if they ever do what God plans for them to do, he wouldn't have long to live. So he works particularly hard to get us not to understand and accept and practice the Three Angels' Messsages. He doesn't care what else we do or say, as long as he keeps us alseep spiritually or so involved in the cares of this present life that we fail to get ready for Christ's return.

[John317]

I would be willing to bet that you are still hanging on to something in Adventism that just doesn't permit you to let go of it. That's how I was for a long time. I left Christ and the church but I was never angry at the church or at Seventh-day Adventists. I frankly just wanted to experience "real life" out in the "world." So I did. I thought I was having a great time during most of those years. I would visit the church from time to time and I enjoyed being around Adventists. I really didn't know why. I didn't give that aspect much thought, really. But I knew I didn't want to be one of them. I enjoyed the "freedom" of living outside of it. The religion made me feel cramped and unable to be "me." Yet there was something in it and in the people that I couldn't quite get over and that I found somehow attractive.

You mention all the "wonderfulness" "out there." Of course there is. It would be foolish to deny it, and it would also be a flat-out lie. The influence of God is everywhere, not just in church or in the lives of people who consider themselves Christians.

So, yes, there is beauty and enjoyment everywhere, but all that "wonderfulness" by itself, without God, is short-lived and leads down a dead-end road.

[aldona]

[To SivartM]

A Friend who speaks to my condition!! I think I've expressed it in a very similar way on another thread before.

Eastern Suburbs (Melbourne) Quaker Meeting, Ringwood East.

Quaker Meetings - Australia

I had already started attending there about 1 1/2 - 2 years ago, and then my SDA church started up its choir and my husband & I became heavily involved in the choir and music ministry in general.

Oh, well - I see that as God's way of telling me that for now, I am meant to stay in the SDA denomination because that is where my family and friends are. But I don't mind. In my heart I know I am a Quaker. One day the time will be right to finally be in the place where I belong.

Of course, if I am disfellowshipped for coffee drinking, not idolizing Ellen White sufficiently or inciting people to ask too many difficult questions, I would be there in a heartbeat.

(If full-time work did not take everything out of me, I would be attending the SDA church on Sabbath and Quaker meeting on Sunday.)

aldona

[Michael Leon]

i dont think i would have any place to go. when you turn from truth all you have is falsehoods.

with that said, the issue to me with a few statements here is that (i'm going to speak generally, but it is focused a bit) you people look at others. if you have an issue with the church its up to you to see if it's with you neighbors or biblical doctrine. if YOU live by the word, you'll be fine. you cant force other people to or get mad at Jesus because the person sitting next to you in the pew is not at the same level of faith as you are.

this seems to be another case of "the grass looks greener..." you'll find the same issues in any church, temple, mosque or shrine in the world. your eyes should be on Him, not Jim. =)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

you didn't answer the question, but you weren't the only one

[phkrause]

I agree with you Pam, but I thought he had some very good points.

pk

[Michael Leon]

i guess i'd go back to where i came from. the world with all its dirt and annoyances. but i don't think thats a good trade off, but thats where i would go.

[Kevin H]

Personally I like your answer, as you may have guessed from my post.

[Twilight]

The problem is simple in my view.

We are doctrinally rich but spiritually poor.

Someone mentioned the quakers earlier.

The quakers are spiritually rich but doctrinally poor.

-----------------

After a recent attempt by some close "friends" at my church to have me locked out of office and prevented from speaking and teaching for disagreeing with them on a point of belief, I asked the same question.

My conclusion?

Find somewhere with the doctines of the Adventist Church, but the experience of spirituality that the quakers have and I am there...

In a moment.

But do you know what?

I do not have to worry, because that is coming.

And it will arise in our church and if it does not get forced out of the church, it will go through till the end.

The age of "dull doctrine and no spirituality", has to come to an end soon...

And I believe it is prophesied that this will happen.

When we begin to understand our need for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then things will change amongst Gods people, this is what people like the quakers understand, that we do not and it is the solution to our problems, it is the former rain.

Mark :-)

[Tom Wetmore]

Mark, I think you have hit upon the crux of the matter that fuels much of the not so uniquely Adventist angst implied in the question in the topic title. And that leads me to another set of questions, I think related to the first. Which is more important spirituality or doctrine? Which connects one to God? How vital to our salvation is it to get all the details of the knowledge of doctrine absolutely right?

One could frame the question as, which is more important to God, the law (doctrines) or people? And how should that direct our path?

Maybe more poignantly, which would you willingly die for?

As for me, in answer to the first question, the older I get the less important being Adventist becomes. Being a Jesus follower is what matters. Denominational affiliation, dogma/doctrinal details and theological trivia seem less a concern. That I may truly know him is all that matters. And as one frequently self-described as genetically Adventist (4th or 5th generation Adventist...) those words do not come lightly to my lips... I was born and breed Adventist and will die as one. But that death of which I speak will make that earthly heredity meaningless beyond belief. I am the adopted son of a different Family...

[Tallmark]

When I joined the church in 1980, the evangelist compared it to Noah's ark. It might stink inside, but it's better than the alternative. I have met the best and the worst people in the SDA church. Many of my friends are still in the world.

[aldona]

Whenever I have been told that I am not a true Christian, but a member of a cult, and that I am not welcome to fellowship with a given group of believers, it has been by a Baptist.

When our church was meeting in a school and we did not have our own building, the pastor approached a number of other Christian churches in the area and asked if we could use their facility on Saturdays.

The most unfriendly and negative response was from the Baptists.

(The most positive and welcoming response was from the Catholics, but our people vetoed that idea as they did not want to be seen worshipping in a Catholic church!)

Maybe in heaven we will each be in our own little denominational section, with a high fence so we think we're the only ones there.

aldona

[SivartM]

I think Baptists (in general) probably suffer from "truth syndrome" about as much as Adventists (in general). At least as described on this thread.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

When I decided to come back to the Adventist church, the most vocal of my Christian friends were 1) Baptist and 2) Assembly of God members. Both told me that the SDA church was a cult because we use EGW like the Mormons use Joseph Smith.

[phkrause]

That's interesting Pam, because Joseph Smith definitely puts, or did put, his book above the Bible. Whereas EGW always said and wrote to look at the Bible and only the Bible. Maybe members turn that around but not EGW. That I agree with.

pk

[cardw]

In many ways I have remnants of SDA genetics. I don't have the drama that comes with having to die for something to be true any longer. The reason is people are willing to die for some rather silly ideas. One simply has to look at the suicide bombing mania within Islam.

Obviously a willingness to die has nothing to do with whether something is true or not.

In terms of doctrine, I think that is a waste of time since it is really an exercise in guessing what god wants based on trying to decode the Bible. We have far more information within the lives of the people around us.

Rather than the idea of spirit I think the ideas of intuition, common sense, and truths that are self evident fill that gap more clearly. I think the words of Jesus to love our neighbor as ourself and to do unto others as we would have them do unto us are far more powerful on their own without all the mental gymnastics of doctrinal correctness. And that, to me, clearly emphasizes people.

[Overaged]

Bible prophecy is supposed to be centered on Christ. He is the point, the hub of all correctly understood prophecy. Christ is FIRST and LAST in all Bible prophecy. It is not always taught that way; but that is the way it is.

[LynnDel]

If the question were, "If there were no other church in town, where would you go?" -- I would have to say that it depends. Each group of worshippers and believers has a different flavor, influenced by the people within the group. I would look for a group of believers closely aligned to the Bible, with John 13:35 as a major criteria - we recognize Jesus' followers as we witness their love for each other.

I think it is sad that many SDAs, when they feel they can no longer worship with a body of SDA believers, choose to stop church attendance altogether. It is still possible to 'not forsake the assembling of ourselves together' by worshipping with Sunday-keeping believers and to continue to also keep the Sabbath day holy. I have seen SDAs do this in areas where it would require many miles of travel to attend an SDA church, and they can become a blessing to the congregations with whom they worship when they take care to interact with others with the loving heart of Jesus (as we should in our own churches) -- and they are blessed by the congregations who welcome them.

[Kevin H]

Good point LynnDel. Felix Lorenz has spent his retirement years pastoring Sunday Keeping Churches that normally could not afford a pastor. He requires from them more fees for study material and attending conferences, but does not take a salery. He's in his 80s now and for the past several years had had a United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ in Deerborn Michigan that meet together and he is a member in the local Seventh-day Adventist church on Sabbath and pastors this Sunday keeping church durring the week. His members know that he is a Seventh-day Adventist, and still love him. A Baptist has a ministry of printing and sending for free his sermons. And last Sabbath the pastor at my church told me that one of our Seminary Professors has also become a Rabbi and has been ministering to Jewish congagations in the Berrien Springs area. Also, I remember when I was at the seminary, the former conference president of the Israeli mission was working on his doctorate. A synogogue in Benton Harber MI was between Rabbis. They asked this Adventist minister to help cover their synogogue until the new Rabbi came in and got settled.

Do we have any retirees reading this post who could do what Felix Lorenz does? How about being Sunday school teachers. This is difficult due to us usually going to church on Sabbath, but there is a ministry to attend Synogogue and befriend members there and to help the members get to know the Bible and the God of the Bible better. Too often we want to win people into our church, but after all the hurt and prejudice through the years, there is a ministry to work on helping Jews take their religion seriously.

[Overaged]

Kevin, your post is an excellent testimony, and food for thought! I really appreciated reading this. Thanks for sharing it.

[phkrause]

Excellent thoughts Kevin.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

My wife and I attended a Church of Christ music service this evening. They were a very friendly group of people. They were selling bags of popcorn for 50¢ coffee for 50¢ and bottled water for 50¢. My daughter Shania thought it was really cook to eat popcorn in the church sanctuary.

Of course I would never join a church so doctrinally far off as they are but it was nice to visit.

[TreeOfLife]

When I left the [formal membership status within a State registered FICTIONall (sic) and brainless] Adventist Church I kept right on going to the [living breathing thinking talking considerate loving] Seventh-day Adventist churches I’ve been going to ever since my early childhood… And I was warmly invited to do so by the pastoral staff…

When I was once being threatened with being excommunicated out of my local Adventist Church - for openly and actively opposing the introduction and use of a Roman Catholic hymn book in place of our old beloved SDA hymnals book - where I was first baptized, it was discovered that my formal membership was long since officially moved to another formal SDA Church and that the church hierarchy could not use that handle against me…

When I am being continually frozen out from my former position as an honored Sabbath School teacher, I became more aware of the powers inherent in the words “Thou shalt not…” that are part and parcel of so many of the Ten Promises of Rest found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, and I became more selective in my support of various activities within the churches I keep attending, for instance in terms of my participation in such church activities as singing, type of meetings attended, gifts and offerings etc..

By being more selective, and by standing up in word and by action for my firm convictions re each particular, the real time powers granted me by my Creator are being continually sanctified, cleansed, and sharpened. Those powers of God are thus being more effective towards the purposes for which they are intended, while I am being blessed by feeling more in harmony with my Creator, less frustrated, and, in the long run, I am seeing things moving slowly but more surely towards the Kingdom of God rather than in the direction of the Dead Sea…

I believe in proper feedback! Prompt, as well as exact, feedback!!! Just as is happening continually within every minute detail of life, of living cells, and of living beings!!!

Life, such as is being continually created by the One God of Life…

[Twilight]

I believe many spiritual people will be in heaven that did not know much correct doctrine.

I do not believer there will be anyone in heaven who was doctrinally "pure" but spiritually "starved".

My point is this, as a church we have the opportunity to be the most spiritual, doctrinally rich people on this planet.

In fact, that is the group who are the 144,000.

So we know it is coming.

We have to ask the question though.

Why is it that we do not have spiritual depth?

Do you know why?

Because our doctrine is incomplete...

There is something we have missed as a church.

Mark