If you were to leave the Adventist church, where would you go?

[cardw]

One of the reasons I am so persistent about placing the Bible as a historical document rather than divine is because doctrine is so divisive. I think you will find Jesus pointing out the paradox of this within many of his questions to the pharisees. For example his question at the end of the Good Samaritan, "Who was this man's neighbor?" There is no question that the OT law only referred to one's Jewish neighbors. Jewish doctrine would have a completely different answer than the one that was obvious from the story.

I believe that trying to find spirituality with doctrine is counter productive because they are completely different ways of engaging with reality. One simply has to look at the 40,000 different forms of Christianity to discover that each one is separated by beliefs based on interpretation of doctrine.

The only reason people are unwilling to move past doctrine is fear. Fear that people will simply go off the deep end, as if doctrine is going stop people from making mistakes. Doctrine is about control and fear, not truth. The irony is that doctrine has alienated far more people than it has saved, if it has saved anyone.

[phkrause]

Good points overaged.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

The question "If you were to leave the Adventist church, where would you go?" reminds me of the conversation between Jesus and Peter.

Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, "Would ye also go away?"

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."

I will not let people get between me and my Lord. The Adventist church is God's remnant church and I am not going anywhere regardless. There is not another church on the planet that has the truth found in the Adventist church. To whom shall I go?

[Overaged]

Many people just choose not to go to any Church because of this idea of "to whom shall I go?" It doesn't usually work too well; especally if you have children.

[Dr. Shane]

I know the Adventist church was around long before I was here and should I leave it will do just fine without me. I need the church much more than it needs me.

[Overaged]

Shane, sometimes, depending on who you are and where you are, there will be times where you don't need the Church; it would just destroy the person...there are times where it is a bad idea to continue attending...

[cardw]

I think it is fairly easy to observe that doctrines and proof texts don't work. This myth that we need doctrines seems to keep going even though the evidence indicates that doctrinal approaches simply serve to separate, by even their own admission.

Imagine living one's life based on theories, never engaging the heart and soul; never testing things out and taking risks. That's essentially what doctrinal rationality presents. It is essentially fear based. It is based on the fear of what if we don't know for sure. Well I hate to break it to you, that's the truth. We don't know and all this posturing, proof texting, and claims of remnant people insight is the inability or unwillingness to accept this fact.

There is no rational system that is fool proof, because we simply don't have the ability to know everything. The best we have is the observation of results and modifying our approach based on experience. And even if it works for a person individually, that is not proof that it will work for everyone. The variables are simply too great.

Some people may need church for a while or even their whole lives and others function quite well without it, despite claims otherwise.

Now the question for Adventists is unique since our culture tells us that it is terrible "out there." Well I'm here to tell you that for some people, it's quite wonderful. I'm not saying it's better for everyone, but for many it is.

[Overaged]

Myth #1 = 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; When you finish explaining why this is a "myth" then we can look at some other ones.

[cardw]

When someone basically says that what I believe to be true is the doctrine of devils that's pretty good evidence of mythology in action. It is very easy to spot since it's based in fear.

Another favorite is to ignore my reasoning and simply label whatever I have to say as psycho bable.

I'm sure this is not the intent of having original thoughts. I really am trying to participate in the spirit of this discussion, but I think this illustrates the futility of having any form of dialog with those who are under the spell of proof texts.

[Overaged]

Rich; it is not a "proof text." It is one of many Bible texts, from both Old and New Testament which supports "sound doctrine" while denouncing "doctrines of devils."

Your response appears to be one of avoidance here. You have denounced doctrines; then you call it a "myth" when you see a Bible verse that talks about doctrines. How do we discuss doctrines; if we are not allowed to refer to the Bible verses that mention them?

The whole "proof text" philosophy, and it's accusations has become a system of excusing away almost anything. Why would God even mention them to us if they are so unimportant for us today? And why would He even differentiate between "sound" or "unsound" doctrine if doctrine is not important?

It is plain to me that there is no problem with the doctrines; only with the people, and with some of their understandings thereof.

[cardw]

Overaged,

I'm not avoiding addressing specific doctrines because I'm trying to stay on topic. This section has certain constraints.

The topic is if we are going to leave the SDA church, where would you go?

And what I am saying is that I found out I could go anywhere I wanted and the world didn't come crashing down like I was taught. In fact when I observe the results, not the proof texts, my world is considerably more joyful, more fulfilling, and far more effective in connecting with others.

And I am trying to be as truthful as possible by admitting that just because it works for me, doesn't mean I have to franchise it to everyone else.

Results are far more convincing to me than debates about the correctness of doctrine.

[Dr. Shane]

Every church has judgmental hypocrites. If a person leaving the Adventist church is looking for a church free of hypocrites they need to take caution. As soon as they find one and join it, it will fail to be a church without hypocrites.

[Overaged]

Well; I'm not explaining myself very well; I can see that. I wasn't meaning to say what I said about any specific doctrine - just all doctrines in general. As I have tried to say to Shane above; sometimes things happen at church, or by church members, and it is so bad, that it is impossible to attend. It doesn't have to mean that the person is looking for the Eutopian Church; nor does it mean that doctrines had anything to do with the person in question leaving/staying away.

[cardw]

Coaspen,

I'm not sure if the comment on feeling superior was directed toward me or not, but if it was I want to make sure that feelings of superiority aren't an intended message on my part.

[Woody]

Hey ... that's cool cardw. I've never go the feeling from your posts that you felt superior. But then ... I also don't think anyone would admit if they did feel superior. But yet I do get that feeling from time to time with other's posts.

[LynnDel]

Skipping back to a couple of comments from last week about Baptists, those not-so-positive experiences only serve to help us recognize that each assembly has its own outlook and reaction to those whose beliefs and practices vary from their own. My experiences with baptists have been positive. I have shared before how the church plant in Davis, CA, uses a Baptist church building on Sabbaths. The Baptist believers there told the SDA group that since we were brothers in Christ, they saw no reason to charge rent, but welcomed the Adventists to use their facility. However, we know it does involve extra electricity and cleaning, so the Adventist group makes a regular contribution toward their expenses. When I have visited there, I have noticed a couple of the Baptist members like to attend - especially the potlucks!

You will probably always find individuals in each denomination who have the 'I'm right, I follow the Bible, you disagree, and therefore you're wrong and likely of the devil' approach towards those who differ, no matter how slightly. Think of how that makes you feel when it is directed towards you, and translate it to how it makes others feel when our efforts to evangelize have the same approach.

In my opinion, it would be good for all of us to visit services in other Christian church churches, to help us better understand how to love each other and believers of other denominations, and how the motes in our own eyes can make us look so self-righteous to onlookers.

LD

[Woody]

[phkrause]

cardw, I don't believe that coaspen was refering to you with that post. At least not from what he's mentioned in prior posts. And as far as I can tell none of your posts have ever been with any malice or superiority intended. I might not agree with you but I do enjoy reading them.

pk

[teresaq]

i escaped the church at the age of 12. in my 20s i started studying my bible and have been studying it ever since, but when it came to church, i made it maybe 20 times til 2000. i was in for a while then had to leave til i was more grounded in God, (it was the same-o, same-o) then i stayed.

my youngest daughter was manipulated from me into a dysfunctional family, raised in the church.

my other two, other than my oldest being in the sda school till a couple of incidents told me i did not want done to her what had been done to me made me take her out, they were not exposed to the church.

the two with me have an open heart towards God.

the one manipulated from me and exposed start to finish to the church and school system cant find God.

she has been so damaged we, my other children and i, dont know how to reach her. she is in so much pain but is a little "porcupine", as was i. while i dont blame it all on the church, the people, and their extended family, who raised her were of the church, and their mentality is not rare.

[Dr. Shane]

When I left the Adventist church I just drank booze and smoked pot all day. Eventually I went through treatment and got sober. After being sober for about five years I started checking out churches. I really liked some better than others. However whenever I got into Bible studies with them I just didn't fit. I was a square peg trying to push myself into a round hole. Eventually I returned to the Adventist church. I didn't return because of its wonderful culture, warm people or great music. I returned to it because of its truth.

I have found that I get out of the church about what I put into it. When I reach out to make friends with others I find that many are willing to be my friends. When I invite people to my home they usually come. When I call them on the phone, the usually chat with me. If I invite them out to eat, to the park, zoo or beach, they usually go with me. I have found that I normally have to be actively reaching out to others in the church. It is not too often that other come up to me and initiate a friendship. That has happened on a few occasions but most of the time I find that to make a friend I have to be a friend.

[teresaq]

is this in general? or in response to my post since it is attached to mine?

i ask because your second paragraph, especially your last sentence, appears to be making an assumption, that, no offence, is based on ignorance of what i am talking about.

i mentioned nothing whatsoever about making friends, or not making friends in the church, nor looking back over this page do i see any reference to "friendly".

perhaps you should get to know a person and where they are coming from before sharing your questionable wisdom, that is if they feel safe with you and invite it, neither of which i did, nor would i.

i am most highly insulted! im 59 years old and yet you appear to feel some need to instruct me on how to make friends as if i said i didnt have any.

well they arent like you thats for sure. if that was all that had been available to me i would have killed myself long ago!

[LynnDel]

When I read what Shane wrote, Teresa, it didn't look to me as if he were specifically responding to you. He could have been responding to me just as well, but I really think he was just making a tangential statement, not responding in particular to anyone.

Shane is just a young pup (sorry Shane!). He has made tremendous growth; let's give him a chance to share his growth experiences without us older ones giving him grief. Gentle now!

LD

[teresaq]

when my youngest daughter and i reunited her "sister-in-law" was with her. at one point they were discussing where they would go afterwards and my child said she didnt want to go to --------- if "he" was there. she didnt like it when he hugged her-my daughter is a beautiful woman with a "bod"-and she shuddered.

the response from the sister-in-law, "now there a----, you know thats not true." (dont put the family in a negative light regardless of what they do.)

to which her real mother-myself- replied, "anita, always pay attention to your "gut". people have been raped, mutilated, and all kinds of horrors done to them because others came along and discounted what the victims felt. you always follow your gut and ignore what anyone else says."

lets remember the admonition now being given to children: if they feel it is a "bad touch" it is a bad touch. it is a universal principle and would save many people from harm if they followed it. lets not be of those who comme along and say, "no, no, its not what you think".

[Overaged]

I read your account here with pangs of familiar pain. The "damage" that you refer to with your one child is so hard for parents to deal with. It is almost unbelieveable to me what was done to my kids by some Church members; and even now; years later, there seems to be no where to go with some of that pain.

I remain encouraged in the Lord though, our family is all together, and we are now able to talk about God and His Word, and even about going back to Church. The It Is Written Ministry has been instrumental in helping our family to retain our hope & our interest in God and Church. I find it quite interesting that this is the ministry that will soon be doing an evangelistic series in Rome; about 5 miles from The Vatican!

[teresaq]

i so appreciate when people read/hear what is actually said and respond appropriately instead of inflicting their unresolved damaged psyches on what they hear/read.

i have to leave my daughter in Gods hands on the one hand, and be in earnest prayer on the other to learn how to reach out to her, to make her feel safe.