If you were to leave the Adventist church, where would you go?

[Overaged]

You mentioned also having to leave your daughter in God's hands; and I think that that has to be one of the hardest things in all this kind of thing for a parent to do. It sounds like you really love your children - they probably know that, and it will pay great dividends some day. Thanks for having the courage to share what you did.

[teresaq]

yes, those who hurt others just blunder along never aware of the pain and destruction they have left behind, even reacting in absolute amazement when seeing it figuring it was really the victims fault, just like the rape victim.

if the rape victim hadnt.....she wouldnt have been raped. make the victim responsible for the behavior of the perpetrator, not hold the perpetrator responsible.

too bad this is a no-quotes forum, perhaps we are still children of the darkness instead of children of the light.

[Liz]

((((Teresa)))) and ((((her Daughter)))) will definately put both of ya'll on my prayer list.

[Tom Wetmore]

MODERATOR POST -

My, how things can quickly get sidetracked...

Just to let those who have been particpating in this topic recently, you will notice a fair bit missing. I have removed the posts from the point of the derailment to get this back on track. Some connected responses get removed as well in the process.

Carry on!

Tom

[Overaged]

Shane; you make a good point. Although it is a sad commentary how that many who are wronged by the church in some way have turned to booze and drugs; it is a good testimony regarding your personal experience with the verse which says: If a man will have friends; he should show himself friendly..

I do not intend to take away your point there; I have only been trying to say that in some cases; where even all the right things are done; it becomes the opposite of good news.

I will state a friendly challenge to all the "editing" Tom has just done in this thread. Some of us have had some unfriendly interactions here on the forum with one another; and here in this topic, we did digress somewhat; but we were actually "mending the fence" and having a little fun together. To me it was an important "first step" in making things right - his deletions seemed to ignore the good that was happening, in favor of "the rules." Now where have we seen that in the church before?

There isn't any other Church we can go to where this kind of thing does not take place. Thankfully; it is not as easy to delete people's feelings, and right desires. More Churches/church members should remember that.

[teresaq]

i was thinking the exact same thing! but got distracted. i thought it was a good thing also.

and thank you, liz! God knows we need it!

[Dr. Shane]

I try to stay focused on the topic of whatever thread I am contributing to. I try not to respond specifically to individuals. When I do, I call them by name and it is normally in the prayer section or light-hearted threads.

People have been wronged in the Adventist church... HOWEVER... can anyone name a church or religious organization that has never harmed any of its members? Is the Adventist church really any different than other religious bodies in that respect? I think not. We are all sinners. None of us are perfect. So from time to time we (as a group) are going to make mistakes and hurt people within our own ranks. I know I have been hurt by others in the church and suspect that I have probably hurt others myself too.

[Lauralea]

That's right olger. It's like the disciples said when the Lord asked if they would leave him too- where would we go? It is what it is.

[cardw]

For me, my ultimate decision to leave Adventism wasn't because I was hurt. I certainly have that as part of my story, but it is not the reason. Bitterness and resentment are pretty harmful for me to stay in no matter what an individual or organization has done.

Shane is right in that every organization, by its nature, is going to disenfranchise some.

My ultimate reason to leave Adventism was because I no longer, in good conscience, could support what it was teaching. I know there are very loving and caring people in the Adventist church and that is not the issue.

The issue for me, is that most Christian organizations are based on fear and, to me, that is not something I want to spread. That's the deal breaker.

[Tom Wetmore]

It is a shame that fear so easily overshadows, corrupts and too often overwhelms the message of love of the "Christ" of Christianity. It was never meant to be that way. The power of love is meant to overcome all fear.

But fear is the enemy of all that is good. It is the most potent force for evil on this earth. It is like a virus that invades all life. And its only real antidote is love. And the greatest instrument of love is forgiveness. That is the gospel Truth that is supposed to dominate and conquer all fear and evil. Had the Church stuck to that message, I think things would have turned out quite different.

But hope does remain...

[Tom Wetmore]

There is one alternative in answer to the OP that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet. Start your own church.

The OP does imply that there is real angst in the dilemma of how to reconcile the differences we feel and to resolve the serious questions about our faith when the Church does not change or adapt to those differences or offers no satisfactory answer to the hard questions that trouble us deeply.

As Rich has told us, he left and lives content with leaving matters of religion behind. (I don't see that as the same as abandoning faith and spirituality or the end of a spiritual journey... but that is a seed for another topic...) But many struggle out the door and finding no better alternative resolve to start a new religion that corrects the inadequacies they perceived in the place they just left behind. That would seem to be the basis for the thousands of separate Christian denominations, not to mention perhaps the equal number of non-Christian religions.

And many who have left Adventism have indeed done just that. But those who feel most strongly about the correctness of Adventism, don't seem to go too far away from the place they left. And that which divided them continues to divide... The math fruit of disunity is continued multiplication and division ad infinitum - A fractious fractal.

[cardw]

If you listen to this lecture by Christopher Hitchens, I think it summarizes very well the difficulty Christianity is going to face convincing persons of reason that Christianity has anything to offer as a whole.

I find his presentation compelling because these very issues are the one's I faced and questioned, much like many other person's of reason. And this is not simply a difficulty with intellectual fine points, it is with the whole unethical nature of the solution Christianity offers.

I know it can be difficult to listen to, but if you really believe that the truth will set you free, then one shouldn't be afraid of honest examination. This addresses the heart of why many find Christianity in all its forms, to be ultimately harmful to society.

Illustrated Christopher Hitchens Part 1

Illustrated Christopher Hitchens Part 2

[cardw]

These are original thoughts to most Christians. And many of these ideas presented were things I was asking about even in college. If you really want to know why people are leaving Christianity in large numbers, this is the basis in very clear language.

If you don't understand these ideas, you won't have anything relevant to say to someone who has left for these reasons.

This is a very serious dialog. It has an ethical basis and it is well thought out.

[cardw]

I don't think starting a new church is going to provide the answer. We have 40,000 different denominations as of last count.

What I purposed to do with my sons is to teach them how to reason, take personal responsibility, and to have empathy. I encouraged them to develop systems for determining what is true and the importance of engaging in whatever community they found themselves in.

They have opinions of their own and are successfully navigating their lives. They are happy and engaged in pursuits they love.

To me, this is a simple and rich basis for living life. I didn't hand these down as beliefs, but as tools. Life is too complex for rigid protocols and beliefs. There is a richness to life when one has the tools to navigate the river.

[Dr. Rich]

cardw--it sounds like you would make a great free mason! Try reading about their 'dogma'.

[John317]

Some of the things you mention are great ideas. I don't think its antipathetic to SDA beliefs to teach your sons how to reason, take personal responsibility and have emphathy. These are the same thing I teach my daughters and son. My parents did the same thing with their children.

"How to reason," of course, is quite different from "what to think," as I'm sure you'd agree.

[olger]

If a person's heart is locked, going to church only frustrates them.

oG

[Tom Wetmore]

Not really suggesting starting a new church so much as stating an unfortunate fact of life. If people would hang in there, tough it out, work together, honestly work out their differences, cooperate, forgive - the Church would be what it was meant to be. It would be the community orginally described. But that is the formula for success for relationships of any sort. People that are committed to a relationship stay together by doing the hard work - together. But sadly most lack the right attitude for it.

[Dr. Rich]

Tom W--What do you mean by working out their differences? Are you suggesting compromise? Is this what Jesus did? Are we now going to call the law 'the ten suggestions'?

[Woody]

God doesn't convience everyone of all ten at the moment in the twinkling of an eye. It takes time. And we need to be patient with one another as we see brothers and sisters grow in their understandings.

[Tom Wetmore]

Good answer, Woody.

If we are approaching a relationship with a fear of compromise, I think we are focusing on the wrong thing.

The notion of compromise implies giving up something in an unequal relationship or working against each other looking after our own interests. It is self-centered. But relationship is about cooperation. That seems to imply seeing each other as equal and working together for the common good of all. It is other-centered.

And that latter characteristic is the attitude of Christ as spoken of by Paul in Phillipians 2:5.

[Dr. Shane]

I think Adventism stands in great contrast to other Christian denominations in that a greater emphasis is placed on love than fear. Most Christian denominations teach people to desire heaven out of a fear of hell. The doctrine of an everlasting, on-going torturous hell is used to scare people into heaven/

Adventism, in contrast, emphasizes the Creator God longing to spend eternity with His creation. God loves His creation so much that when they rebelled against Him in Eden, He put in place a plan to reconcile with them that would involve the death of the Son. God seeks to draw our hearts to Him so that we will long to spend eternity with Him just as He longs to spend eternity with us. Hell is a place of annihilation for those that reject God's love. They are not given eternal life because they have no desire to live a holy life. To them, heaven would be boring. So boring it would be torture. The same mercy that grants the righteous eternal life will annihilate the wicked. That all encompassing message of love is not found in many other denominations.

Now fear can be a good thing. Fear causes me to turn my headlights on at night when I drive. Fear causes me to set my alarm clock at before going to bed. Many forms of fear are healthy. Fear has a rightful place in healthy religion. There are many in Adventist circles that are influenced too much by other denominations and thus misunderstand the proper role of fear in faith. I fear disobeying God because of how the consequences of my actions will affect others and my relationship with God. It is not a fear of hell I am worried about. For example, I fear that if I commit adultery on my wife it will harm my marriage and my children. That is a healthy fear. I fear that if I rob a bank I will go to jail and that too will harm my marriage and my children. That is another healthy fear. I am not afraid that God will stop loving me if I do those things. However I do fear that my relationship with God will be impacted by them. Not His love toward me but mine toward Him.

[cardw]

Well, the Adventist version of the 2nd death is certainly an upgrade from eternal torment, but it still is the threat of a burning death that for some will last for days.

I think you illustrate how fear is really the core motivation for being good in the Christian mind, rather than compassion. I don't commit adultery on my wife because I have compassion for her and I don't want to hurt her feelings.

Empathy and compassion are far better core motivations than fear. And that is the ethic I want to pass on to my sons, not fear of punishment or terrible consequences.

Fear is reactive and compassion is pro-active.

[Dr. Shane]

That is two sides of the same coin. Fear of the consequences of adultery and compassion for my wife are one in the same. It is because I have compassion for my wife that I fear the consequences of adultery. It is because I love my children that I fear the consequences of not getting out of bed in the morning and thus losing my job. These are healthy fears that arise out of love. If I didn't love my wife, I wouldn't fear the impact that adultery would have on her.

[phkrause]

Good points Shane.

pk