When did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

[pnattmbtc]

I don't understand how you see a difference in what John taught and what Paul taught, or Mark/Matthew/Luke. They all said the same thing. The "matchless charms of Christ" as another put it.

[Twilight]

Ok Mark. But you still have the same problem-John's word or Luke's? To believe that both could be true would mean that Jesus must of forgot something the first time-or it didn't work the first time. I, for one would seriously doubt Jesus ever made a mistake.

Pentecostals would argue with this, in that they believe that someone can't have the Holy Spirit in them without showing some type of 'fruit' or gift it produces like speaking in tongues or touching people on the head and they fall on the floor and such.

A sincere pastor I golfed with visited me once and attempted to get me to speak in tongues. What a joke! Later, when sitting in the back seats with some friends while listening to him preach, he called for people to come up to receive the Holy Ghost. Many came forward and the preacher would speak some gibberish and reach out to touch their head and they would fall backwards to the floor. Fortunately, they had someone to catch these people when this happened and if was a woman with a dress on, they would cover her with a blanket.

As I watched this 'show', I wondered how these people can let this happen to them. Suddenly, and without warning, I was thrown on the floor and went into a laughing spat hallucinating a wonderful orgasmic feeling. I remember I was very warm and rolled about laughing out loud (LOL) until the preacher came up and declared for everyone to hear that he had been praying for me to receive the spirit and that this demonstrated that I did.

It was much later when I learned that this was not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of evil that was very seductive and could have been easy to believe. Many people today are trapped into this thinking. We must remember that God speaks in a still small voice.

The bible clearly harmonises when we see that one gift was for the indwelling and one for the outpouring.

As a church we teach that the "latter rain" will come.

But it comes to those that already have the Holy Spirit, same as in Jesus' time.

Question now is Dr Rich, do you accept that latter rain teaching?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

Please read the bible texts I have supplied Pnat.

Then share your own conclusions.

I am not trying to state anything beyond what they say.

It says Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

We also know that Jesus breathed into mans nostrils to give man his spirit.

Those are the only comparable texts.

What conclusions you draw is up to you.

But I am not about to commit to a detail I cannot prove from scripture and I am not sure why you would ask me to do such a thing.

I was asking if I understood you correctly. I don't understand why you can't answer this yes or no. Either I did or I didn't.

I'm understanding your idea/understanding is that the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith. I'm also understanding your idea/understanding is that they did receive it by inhaling Jesus' breath. Did you not intend to say this? If I'm reading more into what you meant to say, please just say that. If I understood you correctly, please say that.

When did I ever state any of those points Pnat, especially this:

is that they did receive it by inhaling Jesus' breath. Did you not intend to say this?

I have stated my position clearly, I believe what the bible says in the texts I quoted.

Could you please state yours.

It is very frustrating to talk to someone, who just wants to discuss anothers point of view without ever revealing their own.

Mark

[Twilight]

But this string is not about Paul so I will say no more here

Thank you.

[pnattmbtc]

When did I ever state any of those points Pnat, especially this:

is that they did receive it by inhaling Jesus' breath. Did you not intend to say this?

I have stated my position clearly, I believe what the bible says in the texts I quoted.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When did I ever state any of those points Pnat, especially this:

is that they did receive it by inhaling Jesus' breath. Did you not intend to say this?

I have stated my position clearly, I believe what the bible says in the texts I quoted.

You wrote the following:

Quote:

Then we see the act of "breathing" the Holy Spirit into the disciples.

That was how it was given.

We receive that by faith, they received it in person.

Based on the last sentence, it has appeared to me that you were saying the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith, since you appeared to be contrasting things, saying they received it "in person." The only alternative I could think of, besides receiving the Holy Spirit by faith, would be receiving it by inhaling Christ's breath. I don't know what else "in person" would mean. Hence I've been asking you what you meant.

What did you mean?

Quote:

Could you please state yours.

I believe the disciples received the Holy Spirit by faith, like any other believer.

Quote:

It is very frustrating to talk to someone, who just wants to discuss anothers point of view without ever revealing their own.

It's frustrating to have to ask someone what they mean over and over again. We all have to live with frustrations.

I still don't know what you mean by saying that the Holy Spirit literally dwells in our heart. You haven't defined what you meant by that, even though being asked many times. You insist it's literally true, and that it's important that we believe this, without defining what this means. What good is that? How is that different than believing in an incantation? Truth, to be meaningful, must be understandable. Otherwise our religion becomes like Catholicism, or other religions, who perform meaningless rites with no idea why they are doing or saying the things they do.

Please can we stick to this subject Pnat, we have discussed those other points elsewhere.

As to us receiving it by faith, we do not have Jesus literally appearing to us, so we receive it from the promise of Gods word.

Now please Pnat, share your own view.

Discussing something with you is like playing hide and seek with someone who has gone home and not told you, do you know that?... (respectfully).

Mark :-)

PS.

If you do not want to share your own view of the texts, I will withdraw from the discussion with yourself.

I do not intend to spend time constantly trying to minutely define every point at your request when you are not willing to share your own view...

[pnattmbtc]

Please can we stick to this subject Pnat, we have discussed those other points elsewhere.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Please can we stick to this subject Pnat, we have discussed those other points elsewhere.

You've brought up this same point in this thread.

Quote:

As to us receiving it by faith, we do not have Jesus literally appearing to us, so we receive it from the promise of Gods word.

Now please Pnat, share your own view.

I stated my view. The disciples received the Holy Spirit by faith, just as we do.

Quote:

Discussing something with you is like playing hide and seek with someone who has gone home and not told you, do you know that?... (respectfully).

With me? I stated clearly what I believe. I did so in the other discussion as well.

I've asked you questions repeatedly without being answered, and here, again, you haven't answered my question. I've explained specifically why I've understood you the way I have, and asked you a specific question several times, and you haven't answered.

If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit by faith, how did they receive it? You took exception to my suggesting it was by inhaling Jesus' breath, but if the Holy Spirit was literally conferred to them by Jesus' breathing (which is what I took you to be saying), then how else could they have received the Holy Spirit other than by inhalation?

You say they received it "personally" as opposed to by faith. What does this mean? How did they receive it, if not by inhalation? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but to understand what you believe. What do you believe? How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

I surrender!

[Twilight]

And please do not ask me what "I surrender!" means pnat...

[Dr. Rich]

Come on Mark, you already know that I follow what Jesus said and taught; and He NEVER said anything about any latter rain. I believe that for those of you who believe in a latter rain will some day get it. But it will not be God that gives it to you, it will be Satan's deceiving work. Many will believe that this is from God, just a Saul believed he was listening to Jesus Christ.

However, the 'holy people' as found in Revelation will be the ones that have been sealed by God prior to the time of trouble. During this time you will find that they (as spiritual beings now) will be performing all kinds of miracles in the name of Christ. However, this is not the 'latter rain'.

If Saul/Paul received the Holy Spirit as it states in Acts, does this mean that the Holy Spirit 'downloads' the truth in someone like one would do with a computer?

[Twilight]

Come on Mark, you already know that I follow what Jesus said and taught; and He NEVER said anything about any latter rain. I believe that for those of you who believe in a latter rain will some day get it. But it will not be God that gives it to you, it will be Satan's deceiving work. Many will believe that this is from God, just a Saul believed he was listening to Jesus Christ.

However, the 'holy people' as found in Revelation will be the ones that have been sealed by God prior to the time of trouble. During this time you will find that they (as spiritual beings now) will be performing all kinds of miracles in the name of Christ. However, this is not the 'latter rain'.

If Saul/Paul received the Holy Spirit as it states in Acts, does this mean that the Holy Spirit 'downloads' the truth in someone like one would do with a computer?

Like I said the other day Dr Rich.

When you keep throwing out so much of the bible the only thing left in the end will be one word:

"I"

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

I surrender!

You mean, "I refuse to answer your questions."

Why? Why will you not answer the simple question of how you think the disciples received the Holy Spirit if not by faith?

[Dr. Rich]

No, you are totally wrong on this point! The only thing left will be the real truth presented by Jesus Christ and given to us by His eyewitnesses! John wrote that Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit and I take John at his word. John never said anything about any Pentecostal experience. Therefore, you what you wrote about me was totally incorrect. I am a follower of Jesus--how about you?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I surrender!

You mean, "I refuse to answer your questions."

Why? Why will you not answer the simple question of how you think the disciples received the Holy Spirit if not by faith?

How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

What does the bible say:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is how I think they received it.

[Twilight]

No, you are totally wrong on this point! The only thing left will be the real truth presented by Jesus Christ and given to us by His eyewitnesses! John wrote that Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit and I take John at his word. John never said anything about any Pentecostal experience. Therefore, you what you wrote about me was totally incorrect. I am a follower of Jesus--how about you?

Dr Rich.

When you set your view up as the only correct view of Cannon.

When you place your knowledge of the scripture above Paul, even John and Peter (although that was MM - but I understand you are in agreement with him on these points?).

When you decide what stays in and what goes out.

Then you are expressing "I" as the rule of doctrine.

You have no longer rested on the scripture, you have rested on what you have decided is scripture.

You have rested on your decision.

You have rested on "I".

That is my fear for you.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

What does the bible say:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is how I think they received it.

I understand that Jesus told them to do something which required faith, and the disciples understood this, and by faith received the Holy Spirit. Is this your understanding as well?

[Musicman1228]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit can, do and did exist in the same space/time continuum. When Jesus 'breathed' the Holy Spirit onto the Disciples in the upper room He had not yet ascended to His father for the 2nd and final time (the 1st time was right after His resurrection). He and the Holy Spirit were in the same room at the same time. The Holy Spirit was always where Jesus is/was/will be.

The reason that Jesus told His Disciples that if He did not go the Holy Spirit could not come is simply stating a fact; Jesus had told them He was going away, He also knew they still had a lot to learn about truth, so without Him in their presence they would need the Holy Spirit to complete their training. The Holy Spirit is an extension of God and Jesus Christ that connects those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven but still dwell on earth (in the world but not of the world) to their source for Truth who now lives in Heaven.

Here is a critical point: The Holy Spirit was IN Jesus while He was here on earth because He had NO sin in Him. No form of God can live within a human being and connect spirit to Spirit if sin lives in that human being. At the time Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit out to the Disciples they still had sin in them. Jesus told them to "receive the Holy Spirit". The implication that we read into this incident is that Jesus wanted them to receive that Spirit right now, but this is not borne out by previous statements of Jesus concerning the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said;

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." John 14:25,26.

Notice the use of the forward projecting word "will". This implies a future event.

" When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13.

Again, here in this verse Jesus is speaking of future events; the guiding, the speaking, the declaring are all future in nature, more than implying that when certain conditions within them are met these things will finally occur.

[pnattmbtc]

The Holy Spirit wasn't only present where Jesus Christ was, right? If that were the case, then nobody on earth could have been saved who was not in the immediate presence of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with your point, but I got the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that you were saying that the Holy Spirit was only present where Christ was.

[karl]

The Holy Spirit wasn't only present where Jesus Christ was, right? If that were the case, then nobody on earth could have been saved who was not in the immediate presence of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with your point, but I got the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that you were saying that the Holy Spirit was only present where Christ was.

No, I was only speaking to Christ's statement that He had to go away for them to receive the HS. I was not addressing the converse. And it seemed unlikely to me that they could not occupy the same space. So I was just trying to pick your brain as to any reason you could see for Christ to say that.

Whadayathink?

[pnattmbtc]

(I was responding to Musicman1228, just FYI)

I think the Holy Spirit was always with Christ and the disciples, as apart from Him they would have had no idea who He was, as Christ pointed out to Peter when Peter confessed He was the Son of God. So Christ was dealing with their dependency upon Him, knowing that He was not going to be with them for much longer. That is, it was necessary for Christ to go away in order for them to depend upon the Holy Spirit's guidance, because as long as He was physically present with them, they would just depend upon Him (who wouldn't in their situation).

[Dr. Rich]

Hey MM-I disagree about the disciples still having sin in them at the time Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit. The disciples could have repented and probably did before Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. Since they all knew that Jesus was the Son of God, they must have dumped out of their hearts all of the evil and sin that they had to accept the fact that Jesus was God. Would not this make them sinless?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit?

What does the bible say:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is how I think they received it.

I understand that Jesus told them to do something which required faith, and the disciples understood this, and by faith received the Holy Spirit. Is this your understanding as well?

My understanding is that this was how they received the Holy Spirit.

It was a literal event where Jesus breathed on them.

We do not have that same "literal" experience, but receive it by Faith in the promise that we do receive it.

That they had faith in Jesus is not being argued.

The simple point is this.

Jesus breathed on them, in person and at that point they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, which they had not had "in them" before.

Do you agree with that?

Mark

[Twilight]

(I was responding to Musicman1228, just FYI)

I think the Holy Spirit was always with Christ and the disciples, as apart from Him they would have had no idea who He was, as Christ pointed out to Peter when Peter confessed He was the Son of God. So Christ was dealing with their dependency upon Him, knowing that He was not going to be with them for much longer. That is, it was necessary for Christ to go away in order for them to depend upon the Holy Spirit's guidance, because as long as He was physically present with them, they would just depend upon Him (who wouldn't in their situation).

But do you accept that they did not "have" the Holy Spirit, until the upper room experience?

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Do you agree with the simple statements from Christ on this subject?

[Musicman1228]

At what point in the Sanctification process does the Holy Spirit indwell a human and make them a divine/spiritual being? At the beginning when they are Justified, or at the end when they are Sanctified?

[it is evident that the Holy Spirit works with humans to bring them to the realization of their need of God, which would prompt them to seek to be justified in His sight. It is also apparent that without the Holy Spirit working with humans it would be impossible for a human being to be able to go through (much less complete) the process of Sanctification.]

[pnattmbtc]

p:I understand that Jesus told them to do something which required faith, and the disciples understood this, and by faith received the Holy Spirit. Is this your understanding as well?

Mark:My understanding is that this was how they received the Holy Spirit.