The Last Generation

[SivartM]

http://thelastgenerationfilm.com/

Quote:

The Project: The Last Generation is a feature-length documentary directed by Adrian James and Albert Sabate, two university students from Southern California.

Synopsis: In recent years, the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America has witnessed the rise of fundamentalism among young Adventists. The Youth Conference movement, which draws thousands of young people in different regions, is a manifestation of this phenomenon. This film focuses on the experiences of some of the youth leaders on the grassroots level of this movement who mobilize their peers in different Adventist communities throughout Southern California. Our aim is to explore how these young Adventists derive a sense of meaning and purpose in this particular brand of religion.

Discussion please. :)

[karl]

What do you think Sivart? What did they say over at Spectrum? Do we want young people espousing fundamentalism or is that best left to old people?

[olger]

Have you attended one of the many GYC sessions, Siv? If so what was your opinion of the meeting?

gcw

[SivartM]

I've never been to GYC but I would like to go. The lectures I've listened to on Audioverse have been mostly good. However, I don't think fundamentalism is the right direction. If you watch the preview video you will see Pipim saying that you can't be an Adventist and eat pork, and you can't be an Adventist and not believe in the Spirit of prophecy (which I assume means Ellen White because, of course, she was a spirit... or something...). While I (along with most Adventists) disagree with the eating of pork and believe in the gift of prophecy, those things are not tests of faith for Adventism and they are not the gospel.

Fundamentalism assumes that:

1. I am always right (ever since I became an Adventist, of course),

2. Anyone who disagrees with me (instead of "me" they usually say "the Bible" or "our Adventist pioneers" or something) is wrong and does not believe in or leaves out parts of the Bible,

3. We must not listen to those false teachers (meat-eaters, etc.),

I think Adventism has enough room for a wide variety of opinions on non-salvation topics. None of us are right about everything, as fundamentalists say they are.

Concerning last generation theology... I don't understand the emphasis on how we must overcome sin in this lifetime... because that's God's work in us. We can't do anything but surrender to Him, something that works-oriented people usually leave out.

[karl]

I've never been to GYC but I would like to go. The lectures I've listened to on Audioverse have been mostly good.

I think Adventism has enough room for a wide variety of opinions on non-salvation topics. None of us are right about everything, as fundamentalists say they are.

Concerning last generation theology... I don't understand the emphasis on how we must overcome sin in this lifetime... because that's God's work in us. We can't do anything but surrender to Him, something that works-oriented people usually leave out.

I think you should got to a GYC. You'll love the spiritual atmosphere, the messages, and many of the people.

I think it is absolutely tragic that there are people within Adventism who don't think we should press on toward the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ.

How low should the mark be set?

The anti-sanctification sect always attacks the mark (which is attacking Christ Himself, incidentally.) "Nobody is perfect! How can you talk about perfection?"

Well, which part of imperfection do you want to use as your mark to press toward? "I want to be like Fred over there. I realize he's got problems, but he's the best guy in this room, and the folks over at "Spectrum" say I shouldn't try for perfection, so instead I'll try for Fredism."

Perfection is hard to come by. I've not seen it in anybody I've hung out with. But progress toward perfection is not only possible, it is mandatory. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

[olger]

I've never been to GYC but I would like to go. The lectures I've listened to on Audioverse have been mostly good. However, I don't think fundamentalism is the right direction. If you watch the preview video you will see Pipim saying that you can't be an Adventist and eat pork, and you can't be an Adventist and not believe in the Spirit of prophecy (which I assume means Ellen White because, of course, she was a spirit... or something...). While I (along with most Adventists) disagree with the eating of pork and believe in the gift of prophecy, those things are not tests of faith for Adventism and they are not the gospel.

Fundamentalism assumes that:

1. I am always right (ever since I became an Adventist, of course),

2. Anyone who disagrees with me (instead of "me" they usually say "the Bible" or "our Adventist pioneers" or something) is wrong and does not believe in or leaves out parts of the Bible,

3. We must not listen to those false teachers (meat-eaters, etc.),

I think Adventism has enough room for a wide variety of opinions on non-salvation topics. None of us are right about everything, as fundamentalists say they are.

Concerning last generation theology... I don't understand the emphasis on how we must overcome sin in this lifetime... because that's God's work in us. We can't do anything but surrender to Him, something that works-oriented people usually leave out.

It sounds like "fundamentalism" is being used as a pejorative term for the GYC by your sources. You're smarter than that.

If you come to me and you say what does it take to belong to your church? I say, “If you join this particular church where I am a member, there are certain doctrinal beliefs that you have to believe. For instance, you can’t believe that the Bible is 90% garbage and 10% nice and still be a member of that body. You can’t do that. There are certain doctrines to which you are committed. There is also a certain code of Biblical conduct to which you are committed. So if you belong to a community of believers, it is not just a belief in Christ but a certain harmonic expression of that belief that you are committed to.

Those who reject that expression of faith should ethically go where they will be happy. It is UNETHICAL to work for Ford and try to promote Chevrolet to everyone you meet.

[SivartM]

I didn't say anything about perfection... and I believe that we should be like Jesus. But what does that mean? Some people seem to think that perfection means that we reach a point at which we never sin. If that is what you are looking for you will not find it. That is focusing on our performance, not on Christ's righteousness. Perfectionists are very careful when talking about grace because they want to make sure that everyone understands that they must work hard until they are free from sin so that they can go to heaven. At least... that seems to be the point of last-generation theology. We need to get perfect so Jesus can come, because He can't come until we overcome all sin, we we we we we.

And the only example of a perfect person they can come up with is Jesus. But they're sure such another person must exist somewhere, because we can be perfect in this lifetime.

Quote:

How low should the mark be set?

This just shows how human-oriented perfectionism is. As if we determine where the mark is. At least, that's what I gather from all the talk of standards and law and such. To imagine that we can somehow reach an infinitely high mark is utterly ridiculous. Jesus is GOD, for crying out loud! We're never going to wake up one morning and be as morally perfect as Him! To think we can somehow meet the law's requirements in and of ourselves totally cheapens the law. It turns the character of God into a weekend DIY project. "Well, I can check off this character development! Only 413 to go!"

[olger]

I don't know anyone who believes that they can meet the Law's requirements by themselves.

Another straw man down,

oG

[The Searcher]

Dear Friends,

I suspect this is a reaction to the direction the Church has taken in southern California. Many of our younger people have had their experience with post-modernism and have come away with a bad taste in their mouth. There is a desire for some form of stability, and fundamentalism gives them that option. There is a deep hunger which is not being met by our Church in America to really know Christ. There is a desire to believe that it is more than a social gospel. They want an authentic experience, and they desire something that will give them peace. Fundamentalism has all of this to offer.

My problem with fundamentalism is the desire to codify rather than to learn who God is. There is an approach which claims promises but doesn't understand that these promises are based upon a love relationship. When I think of fundamentalism, I think of the Catholic Religion and its reliance upon liturgical forms and spoken codified forms which, when recited, bring some type of power through the incantation. A real authentic relationship with God does not operate through liturgical forms. It is a daily communion and trust which does not depend upon meeting some procedural requirement.

At the same time, I also believe that certain things need to be adhered to in order for us to have a more abundant life. I do not eat pork not because I believe it is a sin to do so, but because God created me, and He knows what is good for my health and quality of life. He commands that which will make my life more complete. As He declared to the Israelites in the desert, if you follow my commands, I will not put upon you the diseases which afflict Egypt. They had no concept of disease and the need for septic processes. In other words, the laws concerning clean and unclean meats or any uncleanness were given to guard the health and safety of His people. Even more, there is something about the Sabbath which, when properly observed, will enhance my relationship to God. But the difference is that I view God's requirement as an expression of His great love for me. When I properly understand His commands, I will come to appreciate His willingness to be mis-understood in order to guard me from those things which would destroy my peace, happiness, and joy. God is my loving father, and Christ is my brother who has and continues to do everything He can to bring me home with both of them.

God commands nothing which is not for my well-being. And I have come to appreciate His love for me in providing guidelines for life in a sinful world.

Sincerely,

The seeker

[karl]

I didn't say anything about perfection... and I believe that we should be like Jesus. But what does that mean? Some people seem to think that perfection means that we reach a point at which we never sin. If that is what you are looking for you will not find it. That is focusing on our performance, not on Christ's righteousness. Perfectionists are very careful when talking about grace because they want to make sure that everyone understands that they must work hard until they are free from sin so that they can go to heaven. At least... that seems to be the point of last-generation theology. We need to get perfect so Jesus can come, because He can't come until we overcome all sin, we we we we we.

And the only example of a perfect person they can come up with is Jesus. But they're sure such another person must exist somewhere, because we can be perfect in this lifetime.

Quote:

How low should the mark be set?

This just shows how human-oriented perfectionism is. As if we determine where the mark is. At least, that's what I gather from all the talk of standards and law and such. To imagine that we can somehow reach an infinitely high mark is utterly ridiculous. Jesus is GOD, for crying out loud! We're never going to wake up one morning and be as morally perfect as Him! To think we can somehow meet the law's requirements in and of ourselves totally cheapens the law. It turns the character of God into a weekend DIY project. "Well, I can check off this character development! Only 413 to go!"

I think your response above is pretty much what I was addressing.

Jesus Christ is the mark. Press on toward Him. Never give up. Never look down or at yourself. Look at Him. When we seek Him with all our hearts, good things happen.

Now unto Him Who is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before His glorious throne be honor and glory...

[SivartM]

And you will be good enough for Jesus to come... when?

When you overcome the "big" sins? When you are at least better than everyone else in the world?

[Woody]

Quote:

Fundamentalism assumes that:

1. I am always right (ever since I became an Adventist, of course),

2. Anyone who disagrees with me (instead of "me" they usually say "the Bible" or "our Adventist pioneers" or something) is wrong and does not believe in or leaves out parts of the Bible,

3. We must not listen to those false teachers (meat-eaters, etc.),

I think Adventism has enough room for a wide variety of opinions on non-salvation topics. None of us are right about everything, as fundamentalists say they are.

Concerning last generation theology... I don't understand the emphasis on how we must overcome sin in this lifetime... because that's God's work in us. We can't do anything but surrender to Him, something that works-oriented people usually leave out.

Excellent observations and comments SivartM

[karl]

And you will be good enough for Jesus to come... when?

When you overcome the "big" sins? When you are at least better than everyone else in the world?

Now, Sivart. Now. I am my Beloved's and my Beloved is mine. Now please note that I am not already all that He is going to make of me. I'm just to where He's taken me today.

You are not reading what I am writing. Didn't I say don't look down? Looking at yourself is looking down.

Let me recommend a little exercise, Sivart. Get on your knees and ask Jesus why this concept bugs you so much. Why is it that you don't believe He is able to do in you what you are unable to do in yourself? The "why" is extremely important.

[SivartM]

You are assuming that non-fundamentalist/perfectionists don't believe in overcoming sin.

If we are only to look to Jesus, why talk about how We must overcome sin (whether we say it's by God's power or not) and We must be perfect before Jesus can come? To say that is to be looking to yourself whether you are conscious of it or not. Saying, "But it is God who is working in me," is focused on the object of the sentence: me.

I've noticed that people under this theology are insistent that they are not legalists, and they believe in salvation by grace alone... [except for the last generation...]

You can't be fixed. It is impossible. You are completely corrupted by sin. You wouldn't even care if God didn't help you care. No matter how many standards you uphold and laws you keep, you can't attain perfection. You have to die and let Christ live in you. Anything less is just false sanctification. If Christ lives in you then you won't be concerned about perfectionism or fundamentalism and being perfect so that you don't need a mediator and Jesus can come.

[karl]

You are assuming that non-fundamentalist/perfectionists don't believe in overcoming sin.

If we are only to look to Jesus, why talk about how We must overcome sin (whether we say it's by God's power or not) and We must be perfect before Jesus can come? To say that is to be looking to yourself whether you are conscious of it or not. Saying, "But it is God who is working in me," is focused on the object of the sentence: me.

I've noticed that people under this theology are insistent that they are not legalists, and they believe in salvation by grace alone... [except for the last generation...]

You can't be fixed. It is impossible. You are completely corrupted by sin. You wouldn't even care if God didn't help you care. No matter how many standards you uphold and laws you keep, you can't attain perfection. You have to die and let Christ live in you. Anything less is just false sanctification. If Christ lives in you then you won't be concerned about perfectionism or fundamentalism and being perfect so that you don't need a mediator and Jesus can come.

Have it your way, Sivart.

God always gives us what we want most. If we want Him we can have Him. If we want something else, that is what we get.

[SivartM]

Exactly. So the question is, do we want to try "through God's power" to overcome sin and fix ourselves up, or do we want to die to ourselves and let Christ live IN us as He promised?

One will lead to death, one will lead to life.

[Woody]

Quote:

Have it your way, Sivart.

That's kind of condescending. It's not HIS way ... it the simple Gospel.

[olger]

Since you dislike the term fundamental so much, do you have an equal aversion to the term liberal?

gcw

[Woody]

Exactly. So the question is, do we want to try "through God's power" to overcome sin and fix ourselves up, or do we want to die to ourselves and let Christ live IN us as He promised?

One will lead to death, one will lead to life.

[SivartM]

Yes, I do, in fact. I don't like any labels very much because it's just a way to divide ourselves. People give themselves labels like "conservative" and "liberal". Jesus was neither. In fact, He called both of them blind.

[olger]

Jesus was the ultimate "conservative" as He restored the Law to its original divine function & value. He was "liberal" in how He dispensed blessings.

Liberal used to be a good word. It was hijacked by progressives. Progressives are in the process of being hijacked by emergents.

oG

[Woody]

Sounds like a lot of labels to me :(

[olger]

Emergent is a label given by themselves. If you have a problem with it you can call Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt, Samir, Leonard Sweet et al..

[SivartM]

See how you can twist labels around? They really don't mean anything. The "conservatives" were the Pharisees, who were of the fundamentalist sort (not to be confused with fundamentalist terrorists; those were a different group). The "liberals" were the Sadduccees, who didn't believe in all that superstitious stuff.

Jesus was really more "progressive".

[karl]

So, what's the final verdict, Sivart? To press on or not to press on, this is the question. Some would say that pressing on is bad. Is it? Can you abide in Christ without warring with sin, resisting the devil, actively cooperating with God as He convicts you of your spiritual need?

Strive to enter in at the strait gate? Or don't strive?

Work out your own salvation for it is God that worketh in you? OR don't work?

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.