The Last Generation

[SivartM]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I just asked YOU a question. Are you going to surrender yourself completely to God or strive to produce your own fruit and let God be your co-pilot?

[karl]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I just asked YOU a question. Are you going to surrender yourself completely to God or strive to produce your own fruit and let God be your co-pilot?

I surrender to God. But please don't try to create a false dichotomy. When we surrender to God, we join His team. We work. We don't surrender to flake out. He gives us commandments and He empowers us to carry them out.

All God's biddings are enablings. So why doesn't EVERYBODY do God's will? Some don't cooperate - they don't strive.

We must work. Although, our work is very similar to the work I asked my kids to do when they were 5 or 6. We'd do a project "together." They would bend a few nails over, pull them out, and bend them over again while I did the job. But their hearts were in it and they were doing what they could.

[SivartM]

I agree with you on this. You seem to be constantly assuming that because I'm not a perfectionist I don't think that we should do good works. But the only works I want to be doing are the ones God is doing in me. That is not the sort of thing you hear in the self-help perfectionist circles. They are full of formulas and "this is what you need to do to overcome sin" and all their helpful advice but in the end nothing but surrendering to God will enable you to overcome sin and do good works. Our works have NOTHING to do with making us better people. If we want perfection we will have to get it from Christ or settle for nothing.

[teresaq]

how do you feel about the "perfectionist formula" of studying the life of Christ? taking His life point by point and meditating on it?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I just asked YOU a question. Are you going to surrender yourself completely to God or strive to produce your own fruit and let God be your co-pilot?

I surrender to God. But please don't try to create a false dichotomy. When we surrender to God, we join His team. We work. We don't surrender to flake out. He gives us commandments and He empowers us to carry them out.

All God's biddings are enablings. So why doesn't EVERYBODY do God's will? Some don't cooperate - they don't strive.

We must work. Although, our work is very similar to the work I asked my kids to do when they were 5 or 6. We'd do a project "together." They would bend a few nails over, pull them out, and bend them over again while I did the job. But their hearts were in it and they were doing what they could.

Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is freely given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat, . . . without money and without price." "Their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord," and, "This is His name whereby He shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness." Isaiah 55:1; 54:17; Jeremiah 23:6. {MB 18.2}

As we discern the perfection of our Saviour's character we shall desire to become wholly transformed and renewed in the image of His purity. The more we know of God, the higher will be our ideal of character and the more earnest our longing to reflect His likeness. A divine element combines with the human when the soul reaches out after God and the longing heart can say, "My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from Him." Psalm 62:5. {MB 19.3}

[Neil D]

Ok, you'all got me to come out and ask a perfectly stupid question.....And I just don't think that I know the answer to it...

You guys seem to want to take responsibility for others actions. Isn't that the perfectionist's creed? It's others that are keeping Christ from coming to get us?

And the other side, while it seems more enlightened, also is saying that others need to explain thier minds and see possibilities of the Gospel developing individuals.

While one group pushes that Christ saves us FROM our sins, the other group seems to push that grace is what is needed.

What makes all of us think that we all hold THE truth?

What if we are all wrong? What would happen if we just applied our understanding to just ourselves? What if we don't try to "convert" the other people?What if we just concentrated on what we KNOW what Christ wants for us?

Just askin'.....and wondering if we are both wrong.....

[karl]

how do you feel about the "perfectionist formula" of studying the life of Christ? taking His life point by point and meditating on it?

Good for you, Teresa. That is pressing on toward the mark.

[karl]

Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is freely given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat, . . . without money and without price." "Their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord," and, "This is His name whereby He shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness." Isaiah 55:1; 54:17; Jeremiah 23:6. {MB 18.2}

As we discern the perfection of our Saviour's character we shall desire to become wholly transformed and renewed in the image of His purity. The more we know of God, the higher will be our ideal of character and the more earnest our longing to reflect His likeness. A divine element combines with the human when the soul reaches out after God and the longing heart can say, "My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from Him." Psalm 62:5. {MB 19.3}

Very good. You've highlighted the difficulty some are having. When they hear "strive" they automatically think of doing it by themselves. But striving is "the more earnest our longing to reflect His likeness."

Now find her quotes about stern battles with self and you'll really make us all despair.

I'm convinced that God put that perfection stuff in His Word so that we would absolutely KNOW that it is impossible unless we are doing it in concert with Him.

The objective is relationship. He wants us to be with Him. We fill our lives with everything but the most important thing. He wants US. Although we can rightfully wonder "Why would He?" We just have to take it on faith and respond. He wants us to come to Him - all the time - and say, "Daddy, I can't do it. Will you please...."

[olger]

Most of this rhetoric against fundamentalism (whatever that is) is a veiled rejection of accountability. This exactly parallels the postmodern notion that truth is an internal construct, different for each person.

[SivartM]

how do you feel about the "perfectionist formula" of studying the life of Christ? taking His life point by point and meditating on it?

[Neil D]

Quote:

What if we are all wrong? What would happen if we just applied our understanding to just ourselves? What if we don't try to "convert" the other people?What if we just concentrated on what we KNOW what Christ wants for us?

Well, people do need to hear the real good news... and trying to reach the impossible goal before Jesus comes is not what I would call great news.

Hear the Gospel, I agree...Trying to convert them..sorry, don't agree...That's the Holy Spirit's job. And we take that aspect of God too much on ourselves...

[teresaq]

so it would appear that karl and sivart are saying the same thing with the wrong words.

[karl]

so it would appear that karl and sivart are saying the same thing with the wrong words.

I just hate being wrong all the time. I mean, well, there is something to be said for consistency, but ...(breaks into sobs) at least I'm wrong with my good friend Sivart. And together we are going to rat out all you Jesuits.