Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Something that I have found creeping into this board is that the biblical truths and texts are all "relative". That your "own perception" colours the bible text itself. --------------- For example, one may say: The Sabbath for me means "Sunday", it is "relative" to me. Another would say: The Sabbath is Fri sunset to Sat sunset and that is "absolute" no matter who you are. --------------- The argument seems to stem from which is the central principle: 1. The bible is the centre of truth. 2. My perception of the bible is the centre of truth. --------------- Are the biblical truths "relative"? Or are they "absolute"? Something else? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 They are absolute. But I don't absolutely know what they are. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 They are absolute. But I don't absolutely know what they are. But can you "absolutely" know what they are? Maybe that is the real issue here? That truth cannot be discerned by us? That God has given us truth, but we are only able to understand it "relatively". Or maybe the way we "search and find" truth is the actual issue? A few questions there... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Can you count to infinity? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Can you count to infinity? Why do you ask? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 You have to count to infinity before you can understand the Truth. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 I would like to consider it like this: You have three elements in bible study. 1. Man. 2. The Bible. 3. The Holy Spirit. Now if we say the Bible is absolute and the Holy Spirit is absolute, then the only aspect that can be relative is "Man". Now notice John's view on this: 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Now isn't that a bold claim to make? We are of God. If you do not hear us, you do not hear God. How could John make such an "absolute claim" about his doctrine? Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 You have to count to infinity before you can understand the Truth. Why? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Because the Truth is infinite. Twilight: Why? Because God is infinite and God is the truth. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 The reason that John could make such a claim, was because he knew that he was different to a normal man in some way. You see the "man" part is the problem. But when you solve the "man" part, you solve the problem of "absolute" or "relative" truth. ---------------- Do we come to the bible fully surrendered? Do we come to the bible in full humility? Do we come to the bible prayerfully? Do we ask the Lord to explain the scripture to us or do we just attempt to understand it with our "minds", our own "intellect"? ---------------- I believe that praying for understanding of scripture is something very little practiced in Adventism. And I think we come to the scripture, not fully surrendered, not in humility, and not prayerfully. Because of that, we cannot have a real comprehension of "truth"? ---------------- We think that good doctrine is "understanding", but good doctrine only comes to the "good Christian"... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Originally Posted By: SivartM They are absolute. But I don't absolutely know what they are. But can you "absolutely" know what they are? Maybe that is the real issue here? That truth cannot be discerned by us? That God has given us truth, but we are only able to understand it "relatively". Or maybe the way we "search and find" truth is the actual issue? A few questions there... Mark :-) The Buddhists would say you cannot absolutely know that YOU are. Descartes would disagree. Can you know truth? I submit that you cannot unless it is revealed to you by the Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Because the Truth is infinite. Twilight: Why? Because God is infinite and God is the truth. How does this then fit into that: Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 But when two people pray for understanding and come to the Bible with humility and surrendered to God and still come out with different beliefs... what then? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 How does this then fit into that: Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Mark :-) He will guide us into all truth... but how do we know when we get there? 1 Corinithians 13:9,10 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away." Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 I submit that you cannot unless it is revealed to you by the Truth. Exactly! And what pre-conditions are there before we can receive that truth? We have to place ourselves at the feet of Jesus. But we often place ourselves at the feet of commentaries... ------------- When we are "right", God can lead us into truth. I have learned that when I want to understand a spiritual truth, I have to pray about it. I pray and pray, maybe for days, until eventually the Lord gives me that simple understanding. Part of that prayer is adjusting myself to the right "attitude" that God requires until He gives me that "understanding". -------------- It is a spiritual event, when it is given. But Adventist pride wants to make it a "intellectual event" perhaps? Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 But when two people pray for understanding and come to the Bible with humility and surrendered to God and still come out with different beliefs... what then? They are required to kill each other, of course. Haven't you been paying attention to the "God does not kill" discussion? Just kidding. Keep studying. God says if we seek Him we will surely find Him. That doesn't mean we are going to be absolutely correct on every fact of the universe, but we will know Christ, Who is the Author of our salvation and the salvation of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 But when two people pray for understanding and come to the Bible with humility and surrendered to God and still come out with different beliefs... what then? I would have to see that. As it is a hypothetical situation. It is an interesting question, but it assumes that they will come out with different beliefs. Why not assume they will come out with the same beliefs? --------------- Let me give you an example. I have a great deal of respect for Karl on here. I often find we "speak the same language". Now we do not agree on every fine point, but there is liberty there on those points, which we do agree on. But what astounds me, is that we agree on so many things. And neither of us sound like "typical doctrinal adventists". How did that happen? I do not know Karl, I do not know who he has read, but I recognise in his posts the same teachings in many instances that I have learned. How did that happen? Shared resources? Is it that we have the same teacher? Is it that we have learned to seek teaching from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? ------------- Consider the Advent movement message, that originally sprang up in diverse places individually, as another example. So I think that when we prayerfully humbly "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness", we will be drawn into all truth and like the spokes on a wheel, the closer to the centre we come, the closer our doctrine will be. I believe the problem is that we are seeking "doctrinal pride" rather then the "righteousness of Christ" in many instances... Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 If they always come out with the same beliefs, then nobody but Adventists really "know the truth". Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 If they always come out with the same beliefs, then nobody but Adventists really "know the truth". Can you expand on that Sivart? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 If all it takes to absolutely know the truth is praying to understand the Bible and reading it with humility, then anyone who disagrees with you must not have done those things, at least not sincerely. I don't think that's all it takes. Sometimes God keeps parts of truth from us for a time. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 If all it takes to absolutely know the truth is praying to understand the Bible and reading it with humility, then anyone who disagrees with you must not have done those things, at least not sincerely. I don't think that's all it takes. Sometimes God keeps parts of truth from us for a time. What are the conditions? I can think of a few: 1. The enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. 2. The Study of the word. 3. Humble prayer. Then God reveals His "absolute" truth to us on matters. I agree that He does not reveal "all absolute" truth at once. But if we do not comply with the conditions of receiving truth, then how can we know anything? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 But how do you know that you know the absolute truth now? What if God has not revealed it to you yet? I repeat my earlier quote: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away." Whatever you think you know... will be done away. Leaving... love (the topic of 1 Corinthians 13). Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 But how do you know that you know the absolute truth now? What if God has not revealed it to you yet? I repeat my earlier quote: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away." Whatever you think you know... will be done away. Leaving... love (the topic of 1 Corinthians 13). I agree Sivart that I do not know the absolute truth in all things, I am not claiming I do. But here is an example. We are only saved through the "merits of Christ". Now when this was first explained to me, I thought "yes, I understand that". But when I thought about it, it did not touch my heart. So I went to the Lord and prayed for several days. Then all of a sudden, I knew. I now knew "absolutely", with a "knowing", that it is only through the merits of Christ that I received anything and in fact "everything". I know that absolutely. And I am sure that even my comprehension of that will grow over time. But I do not know all things absolutely. I hope that makes sense? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 Think about how our Adventist Forefathers arrived at truth. Prayerfully and Spiritually, with a good dose of biblical study thrown in. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I agree with you. Truth is experiential... He is personal. Truth is not a set of doctrines. If you agree with this we are on the same page. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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