"Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?"

[there buster]

Good practice demands that I at least consider Romans 1. And in the case of Romans, it turns out to be imperative, because Romans 1, although the opening of an epistle, opens very differently than the other Pauline epistles.

That difference influences how we view the entire epistle.

[there buster]

Any other details about Paul you think I've missed?

[Gerr]

If Jesus had come to a selfless world He would have had a place to lay His head. Why? Because in God's system there is no "self"...

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[:"blue"]I am curious what you mean by this "self" that you say does not exist is God's system. Do you mean by "self", 1) the entire person of an individual, 2) an individual's typical character or behavior (true self), 3) that which constitutes individuality? [/]

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there are no cliques...

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[:"blue"]Agreed. [/]

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no hierarchy.

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[:"blue"]Then explain what "archangel" means, "cherubims" & "seraphims" [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Good practice demands that I at least consider Romans 1

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Not really....All this fuss over Romans chapter 7!!! I really do not wish to get caught up in everything else but the immediate context. Romans chapter 1 will not directly affect the question concerning "coveting" in verse 7 through 11 of Romans chapter 7....Besides I am already aware of the issue in Romans chapter 1. Here's the basic message of each chapter:

Romans 1: Paul talks of the Gentiles - those who do not have the law.

Romans 2: Paul talks of the Jews - those who have the law.

Romans 3: Paul's conclusion is that both the Gentiles and the Jews are sinners and therefore by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified.

Romans 4: Paul uses Abraham as the father of those who believe. He makes it abundantly clear that we are saved by faith, apart from our law keeping

Romans 5: In this chapter Paul does two things:

1] He contrasts God's love against human love. Human love is self-seeking, while God's love is selfless - it is unconditional and spontaneous.

2] He compares our two humanities: Adam and Christ. "In Christ" all has been reversed that we lost "in Adam".

Romans 6: In the closing statement of chapter 5, Paul states something interesting:

"But where sin increased, grace increased all the more."

It sounds like the more I sin, the more grace covers me! "Praise the Lord, let us keep on sinning!" Is that what Paul is saying???

In case someone misunderstands Paul, he counteracts this mentality by comparing our death and resurrection "in Christ" to our mental attitude of dying to sin and living in newness of life. Romans 6 is in a nutshell Paul's attempt to correct cheap grace ...

Romans 7: Here Paul tries to counter the other ditch -- self-righteousness. Again, because of his stance on Christian living in Romans chapter 6, some might take it to mean that our good works prove that we are fully keeping the law. In this chapter Paul goes into why we are not measuring up to God's selflessness using verses 7-11. He uses the spirituality of the 10th commandment to make his point.

Romans 8: In this chapter he lets believers know that even though they fall short of God's love, that "in Christ" there is no condemnation. He again encourages believers to walk in the spirit.

Now let's get back to Romans 7

[there buster]

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Not really....All this fuss over Romans chapter 7!!!

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Yeah, it's not like it's God's revelation to man or anything. You really think

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Romans chapter 1 will not directly affect the question. . . in chapter 7

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Even your superficial catalogue of the earlier chapters suggests something about the passage in question.

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Now let's get back to Romans 7

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You can do anything you wish. You asked me to explore the issue, and I will do it in the way I think best. Or not at all.

[Robert]

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I am curious what you mean by this "self" that you say does not exist is God's system. Do you mean by "self", 1) the entire person of an individual, 2) an individual's typical character or behavior (true self), 3) that which constitutes individuality?

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In heaven the driving force behind all you do will be to live for others....What's nice is that this selfless love will be reciprocated back towards you by everyone else. The problem is that if one person becomes self-oriented the whole cookie begins to crumble. This is the reason Lucifer could no longer remain in heaven. Even then his concept of "self" deceived 1/3 of the angels.

I can image what Lucifer said to the angels, "Look here, God's okay, but this living for everyone else isn't true freedom....We need to learn to love ourselves - put our interests first. I believe this is the greatest love of all!"

So to answer your question # 3 is the closest. When I say "self" I mean what is most important to us:

1] Ourselves

or

2] Our neighbors?

In heaven there will be no self-seeking...we live for the good of everyone else!

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Then explain what "archangel" means, "cherubims" & "seraphims" [i.e., in the context of hierarchy]

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Jesus is God, right? Okay then He should be # 1 - right? Well, that depends on how you view what it means to be # 1....If I say, "I am # 1 because I have the best grades" then many will see me as "the man"! Or even better: If you go to USC and I go the Harvard, who does the world look at as being better (# 1)??? Right - me...the guy from Harvard.

Here's another question:

In the eyes of humanity, who is # 1 (who is more important):

1] The president of the US of A

or

2] his cook?

Well, who is serving whom? Right, the cook is serving the president! Who is more important in the world's eyes? No contest - "the president." I mean he really had to work his way up the ladder to get where he is at, right?

Now go to Luke 22:24 “…A dispute arose among them [the disciples] as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them [i.e., they put “the boot on the neck” because they are # 1 – they have power]; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you [disciples] are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table?

Yes, in human terms the one who is at the table being served is # 1. But then Jesus contradicts our human love: "But I am among you as one who serves.”

So who is the greatest in heaven? God! He lives to serve! He loves you more than Himself!!! The cross proved that fact....He is both the creator and the redeemer....God is truly good....Blessed be his name! Amen....

[Robert]

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Or not at all.

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I am not interested in being sidetracked! Disprove my simple exegesis of Romans chapter 7 verses 7-11....If reverting back to Romans 1, etc. helps you then do so, but please do not get long winded and go on and on and on....

BTW, so far you have said very little! A lot of talk....You remind me of Puffy the marshmallow man!

[]http://generallyawesome.com/marshmallow_man.JPG[/]

[Robert]

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Well, who is serving whom? Right, the cook is serving the president! Who is more important in the world's eyes? No contest - "the president." I mean he really had to work his way up the ladder to get where he is at, right?

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Where did we get this mentality (or should I say ambitious drive)?

Is 14:13 For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Notice this self-seeking, always "lusting" to be greater and greater!!! We see this everywhere....We see it in sports; in education; in the things we buy - even in the church. Why?

At our source (i.e., father Adam), Lucifer infected us with the concept of "self". That is why the Bible says, "For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man [that includes you and I], the lust of his eyes [what he sees he wants] and the boasting of what he has and does [e.g. "I" this and "I" that]—comes not from the Father but from the world."

Okay, this "I-ism" ("self") doesn't come from the Father, it comes from the world! What does that mean? Well, who is "the god of this world"? Right - Satan!

The Christian (as he stands fully on the platform of justification by faith) should begin to reflect less and less of Satan and more and more of Christ. However, perfection will not come until we shed our natures. Then we will measure up to the law, i.e., we will live only to serve, to its fullest potential....

In the meantime, we had better not be "under the law" (obey and live, disobey and die)...but on the other hand as we begin to see our sinfulness (by seeing a God whose love contradicts the best of human love) we begin to, "love God with all our hearts and with all our minds"...This is faith, which, sooner or later will transform us is to loving others more and more while "self" starts taking a backseat more and more!

[there buster]

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Disprove my simple exegesis of Romans chapter 7 verses 7-11....If reverting back to Romans 1, etc. helps you then do so, but please do not get long winded and go on and on and on....

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I'm not interested in disproving you, I'm interested in understanding Romans 7.

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BTW, so far you have said very little!

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Funny, I feel the same way about you. A lot of personal opinion, some preachy pronouncements. . . ah, but let's try to get along, shall we? Or shall I tell you what you remind me of?

I think not.

[Gerr]

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I am curious what you mean by this "self" that you say does not exist is God's system. Do you mean by "self", 1) the entire person of an individual, 2) an individual's typical character or behavior (true self), 3) that which constitutes individuality?

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In heaven the driving force behind all you do will be to live for others....What's nice is that this selfless love will be reciprocated back towards you by everyone else. The problem is that if one person becomes self-oriented the whole cookie begins to crumble. This is the reason Lucifer could no longer remain in heaven. Even then his concept of "self" deceived 1/3 of the angels.

I can image what Lucifer said to the angels, "Look here, God's okay, but this living for everyone else isn't true freedom....We need to learn to love ourselves - put our interests first. I believe this is the greatest love of all!"

So to answer your question # 3 is the closest. When I say "self" I mean what is most important to us:

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[:"blue"]Are you then saying that individuality, or the preservation of individuality is anathema to God & His system? [/]

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Then explain what "archangel" means, "cherubims" & "seraphims" [i.e., in the context of hierarchy]

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Jesus is God, right? Okay then He should be # 1 - right? Well, that depends on how you view what it means to be # 1....If I say, "I am # 1 because I have the best grades" then many will see me as "the man"! Or even better: If you go to USC and I go the Harvard, who does the world look at as being better (# 1)??? Right - me...the guy from Harvard.

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[:"blue"]You claim there is no "hierarchy" in God's system. What was Lucifer's original position among the angels?

There are two references that I could find that mentions "archangel": Jude 9 which refers to the Archangel Michael, who is probably Christ, and the other is 1 Thes 4:16. It reads, [:"red"]"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." NKJ. [/]

Now, I doubt "archangel" [which means first or chief angel] here is referring to Christ Himself. If there is a "first" or "chief", there must be a second or third?

[:"red"]"It was the highest crime to rebel against the government of God. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, [:"blue"]each division with a higher commanding angel at its head. [/]Satan was warring against the law of God, because ambitious to exalt himself and unwilling to submit to the authority of God's Son, heaven's [:"red"]great commander. [/] SR p. 17,18. [/]

In God's earthly theocracy, He had Moses & Aaron for leaders. Later, the 70 elders were appointed. When the responsibilities of leadership became too heavy for Moses, a hierarchy of judges/leaders was set up. Judges/leaders for 10, & if a problem was too difficult, it was taken to a judge/leader for a hundred, then to the judge/leader of a thousand, on up to the supreme court, i.e. Moses.

No hierarchy? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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No hierarchy?

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If you insist on hierarchy then, "the first will be last and the last first." In heaven God is the greatest of all because He is "the servant of all"!

[Robert]

You are wasting my time! If you have nothing to say, then say nothing at all....If you do have something to say, then say it within the context of Romans 7!

Thank you,

Rob

[Gerr]

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No hierarchy?

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If you insist on hierarchy then, "the first will be last and the last first." In heaven God is the greatest of all because He is "the servant of all"!

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[:"blue"]And in your "selfless" heaven, will it be individualless also? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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I'm interested in understanding Romans 7.

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Good, let's begin with Rom 7:6 were Paul concludes,

"We [believers] have been released from the law [why?] so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit [see 2 Corinthians 3:17,18], and not in the old way of the written code [obey and live, disobey and die (see Deuteronomy 28:1-65)]."

Is something wrong with the law so that even believers have to be released from its demands of obedience?

Verse 7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? [i.e., were we released form the law because it in someway is bad?] Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law [in other words, the law is good for it points out sin]. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Verse 8 "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [i.e., in the absence of a greater understanding of the 10th commandment], produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law [i.e., a better understanding of the law], sin is dead."

Here's what Paul is saying: 8 But sin...produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead."

How can sin produce sin? What is at the heart of sin? Deception! Paul elsewhere calls it, "The deceitfulness of sin". Paul's sinful nature actually deceived him into thinking that he was keeping the 10th commandment according to his limited view of what it means to covet. His nature did this by, "seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment"!

If we jump to verse 11 Paul repeats this idea, only this time he adds a word: "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me....

verse 9 "Once I was alive apart from law

Again, Paul once considered himself "alive" because he thought he was keeping the law.

"but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died."

The commandment was already there....So what came? Right - a better understanding of what it really means to "covet"!

Now what does Paul mean by, "sin sprang to life and I died."

After realizing the 10th commandment required more than he previously understood, Paul then realized he was a sinner. What does the law do to sinners? It condemns them to death!

Verse 10 "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death."

Again, what changed?

1] Paul's limited understanding of what it meant to "covet"

or

2] _________________________ (you fill this one in)

[Robert]

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No hierarchy?

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If you insist on hierarchy then, "the first will be last and the last first." In heaven God is the greatest of all because He is "the servant of all"!

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And in your "selfless" heaven, will it be individualless also?

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First of all it is God's selfless heaven, not mine....We are down here because if the principle of self were allowed to enter heaven, heaven would no longer be heaven.

Of course we will be individuals, but without the principle of self indwelling in our members.

[there buster]

Robert, Robert, Robert.

If I thought you had explained Romans 7, I would have accepted it and moved on long ago.

You suggested I go ahead and explore Romans 7.

So I'll do it in the way I believe proper, or not at all.

Let's learn to take turns, O.K.?

When you're through ventilating, I'll move forward.

[Robert]

"Love your neighbor as yourself!" That, if you think about it, is staggering! He does not say that we must love our neighbor more than we love ourselves; he says we must love him as or in the same ways that we love ourselves. In other words, the way we every day demonstrate our love for ourselves is precisely the way in which we are to demonstrate our love for others. It really is very easy to understand; it is much more difficult to practice!

You are in love with yourself, aren't you? Face it, there is no one on earth more concerned with your happiness or your well-being than you are. No one is more concerned with your rights or your health or your wealth--or your wardrobe for that matter. Our love for ourselves is obvious! It is evident by the fact that we go to whatever lengths necessary to care for our every whim.

This is the essence of "coveting" - of self-love and self-seeking.

[LifeHiscost]

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>>not specifically for the gift of discernment.<<

The church validated both of them by including the Gospels which contain that story in the canon of Scripture.

That's not so much my opinion as historical fact.

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Re: >> << Not only that, but since your answer is out of context, according to your rules it (your answer) is invalid.

Another lesson in the futility of human arguement.

[:"red"] "It is an honor for a man to keep away from fighting, but any fool will argue." [/] Proverbs 20:3 NLV

No offense meant. Peace!

Lift Jesus up!!

[there buster]

Your last post was totally opaque to me. It's apparent you think you made a telling argument, but I have no idea what it was.

I have no idea what it is you're claiming is out of context, or why.

[Gerr]

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No hierarchy?

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If you insist on hierarchy then, "the first will be last and the last first." In heaven God is the greatest of all because He is "the servant of all"!

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And in your "selfless" heaven, will it be individualless also?

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First of all it is God's selfless heaven, not mine....We are down here because if the principle of self were allowed to enter heaven, heaven would no longer be heaven.

Of course we will be individuals, but without the principle of self indwelling in our members.

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[:"blue"]Robert, I have been trying to get a feel for what you mean by "self" & "selfless". It almost sounds truth, but there is something in what you are saying just doesn't ring quite the truth.

If you mean by "self" & "selfless" that each person has no "personhood", no "individuality", no "being", i.e. each one become ciphers, then NOTHING could be farther from the truth.

[:"red"]"Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator - [:"blue"]individuality, [/]power to think and to do.......It is the work of true education to develop this power, to train the youth to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought." [/]Ed p 17.

But if by "self" you mean the "old man", the flesh & blood descendant of the fallen Adam, the one that needs to die, burried, the "self" that is a slave to sin & not to righteousness, then, yes, I agree with you. But no individuality? Friend, God did not make His creatures from a cookie cutter. Not even two cats are the same. No ciphers in God's universe, those created in the image of God! [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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I'm interested in understanding Romans 7.

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Good, let's begin with Rom 7:6 were Paul concludes,

"We [believers] have been released from the law [why?] so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit [see 2 Corinthians 3:17,18], and not in the old way of the written code [obey and live, disobey and die (see Deuteronomy 28:1-65)]."

Is something wrong with the law so that even believers have to be released from its demands of obedience?

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[:"blue"]Believers released from obedience? NONESENSE!!! Released from condemnation of the law for breaking it? YESSS!!! Released from obedience as the MEANS to salvation? YESSSS!!! Released from the law as the standard for righteous living? NEVERRRR!!!

The wages of breaking the law is death, whether you are a believer or not! Rom 6:23.

[:"red"]"IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments." Jn 14:15.

"We received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles [:"black"]to the obedience that comes from faith." Rom 1:5 NIV [/] [/] [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert, I have been trying to get a feel for what you mean by "self" & "selfless". It almost sounds truth, but there is something in what you are saying just doesn't ring quite the truth.

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No, I am not attacking "individuality" or "being"....

Again, to be "selfless" is the opposite of "self-seeking" and "self-love"!

When I speak of "self" I mean self-seeking....

[Robert]

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I'm interested in understanding Romans 7.

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Good, let's begin with Rom 7:6 were Paul concludes,

"We [believers] have been released from the law [why?] so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit [see 2 Corinthians 3:17,18], and not in the old way of the written code [obey and live, disobey and die (see Deuteronomy 28:1-65)]."

Is something wrong with the law so that even believers have to be released from its demands of obedience?

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Believers released from obedience? NONESENSE!!! Released from condemnation of the law for breaking it? YESSS!!!

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Okay...let's see, you say believers are not released from "obedience", but they are released from its condemnation - right? Okay, what happens if they do not perfectly keep the law - as in never fully measuring up to its commands?

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The wages of breaking the law is death, whether you are a believer or not! Rom 6:23....

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Yes, "the wages of sin is death", but you didn't continue the context! Let's read the rest of the story! "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

You see Gerry, as far as the law is concerned I am dead - killed by the law itself. I have accepted my death "in Christ"....In fact, I have accepted my obedience "in Christ". This is justification by faith.

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IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments." Jn 14:15.

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I don't have a problem with that! However it doesn't say IF you want heaven, keep the commandment.

[Gerr]

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Is something wrong with the law so that even believers have to be released from its demands of obedience?

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Believers released from obedience? NONESENSE!!! Released from condemnation of the law for breaking it? YESSS!!!

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Okay...let's see, you say believers are not released from "obedience", but they are released from its condemnation - right? Okay, what happens if they do not perfectly keep the law - as in never fully measuring up to its commands?

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[:"blue"]Read Num 35 & Josh 20. As I have mentioned many times in other threads, the ONLY sin that would make one lose his/her justification is a willful/deliberate sin, for which one would have to repent all over again & for which a loving God would gladly forgive. This is the ONLY way I have been able to make sense of 1 Jn 3 & 5. You are welcome to show me another way of reconciling, if you can, the fact that we ALL continue to make inadvertent mistakes/sins while John categorically states that the truly born again believer in whom the divine seed dwells will no longer willfully or deliberately transgress His law.

I don't believe God expects fallen man perfect, flawless performance. That is not possible for fallen human beings to do, and I have said this over & over again. But it is possible, and in fact God demands it, to love Him with ALL our heart, with ALL our mind. A perfect heart but having an imperfect performance is NOT an oxymoron.

In the OT, God expected a bull for a sin offering from a priest or a leader or a wealthy man, a sheep or goat from the average person, and a pigeon from a very poor person. IOW, God expects from each person ONLY what he/she is able to give/do. And when this is done in LOVE, He accepts it as fulfillment of the law but NOT as merit! Rom 13:10 [/]

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The wages of breaking the law is death, whether you are a believer or not! Rom 6:23....

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Yes, "the wages of sin is death", but you didn't continue the context! Let's read the rest of the story! "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

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[:"blue"]Nowhere in Scripture (show me if you can find one), is eternal life ever promised to ANYONE who willfully/deliberately transgress His covenant. [/]

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You see Gerry, as far as the law is concerned I am dead - killed by the law itself. I have accepted my death "in Christ"....In fact, I have accepted my obedience "in Christ". This is justification by faith.

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[:"blue"]Paul makes it perfectly clear, to me anyway, that those who are dead to the law are those who have also died to sin. The law cannot lay claim to or charge a dead person! That's Paul's point in his illustration of marriage law in Rom 7:1-6. But one cannot claim to be dead to sin & therefore dead to the law and yet continue to LIVE in sin! One cannot be a slave to sin and at the same time be a slave to righteousness/God, or claim to be free from sin while living under its dominion, or claim to be free from indwelling sin & living in the Spirit while carnal mindedly living in the flesh! That's Paul's whole point in Rom 6 & 8! [/]

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IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments." Jn 14:15.

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I don't have a problem with that! However it doesn't say IF you want heaven, keep the commandment.

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[:"blue"]That's all He is asking! Love Me. Read Deut. & the OT, and you will find that's what He had been asking the Israelites. And in the NT, that's all He is asking too. For only in the heart in love with Him is there a true disposition to obey His commands. That is the fruit of having been saved, never the basis or means for it.

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert, I have been trying to get a feel for what you mean by "self" & "selfless". It almost sounds truth, but there is something in what you are saying just doesn't ring quite the truth.

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No, I am not attacking "individuality" or "being"....

Again, to be "selfless" is the opposite of "self-seeking" and "self-love"!

When I speak of "self" I mean self-seeking....

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[:"blue"]Is it self-seeking for believers to develop their talents so they could get better jobs & so they could serve God & their fellowmen better? And kindly show us how we can love our fellowman without knowing how to love one's self.[/]

Gerry