Woody Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 "the Sanctification of the Spirit" ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Please tell me where you got the quote above. What source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 You're not allowed in that part of the Bible MM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 You're not allowed in that part of the Bible MM. What's wrong with 1 Peter and 11 Thess. ??? Why are we not allowed to go to that part of the Bible? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I didn't say you, I said MM. He does not accept the writings of Paul, or Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Why does he not think we should go to that part of the Bible? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 He says it was inspired by Satan, and is a lie. He believes the same thing about Ellen White. He also says that faith and grace are not needed, they are only lies, propagated by Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 MUISCMAN1228 SO if we dont need faith or grace why did JESUS have to die for us dgrimm60 Jesus was executed as the Passover Lamb to pay a penalty for us that we could only pay for ourselves if we were willing to die forever. This payment does not make one righteous, it makes it possible for the righteousness we gain through the process of Sanctification to matter, once that process is complete. If the process of Sanctification is not finished in a person because of their death then the grace of Jesus Christ carries them over the penalty of the second death, and at the Coming of Christ in the clouds they are resurrected to life eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 If the grace of Christ can't help a person over the penalty of the second death when they're alive, how does it help them over it after they're dead? Why does a person have to die in order for grace to work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 You're not allowed in that part of the Bible MM. Richard, your arrogance and condescension is showing. In your mind you will accept the words of anyone as truth without question, as long as they CLAIM they are of God (Matt. 24:5). I prefer to know the source of the words that I understand as truth (John 17:17), you don't question your sources because you have 'faith'. Technically, there is strong evidence (from qualified experts no less) that the Apostle Peter did not actually write 1 & 2 Peter, so why would I blindly except that he did, just because people I don't know anything about included 1 & 2 Peter in the Christian Bible. As to Paul; I agree with everything he says except where he disagrees with the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as given by the eyewitness Disciples and with what God said in the OT. Yet even where he does agree with Jesus I still do not use Paul as an infallible source for truth because he is a fallible human being, not God. This attitude will probably not make sense to you, but I don't take this personally as nothing I have said to you makes sense to you. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 In your mind you will accept the words of anyone as truth without question, as long as they CLAIM they are of God (Matt. 24:5). I prefer to know the source of the words that I understand as truth (John 17:17), you don't question your sources because you have 'faith'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Grace as taught by Jesus Christ (gospels and Rev.) is part of the process of Sanctification. If you complete the process of Sanctification while you are alive then you are sealed in the truth. This is what will happen to the 144,000 prior to the start of the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:45-51, Rev. 3:4, Rev. 7:2-3, Rev. 14:5). This also happens to the Five Wise Bridesmaids (Matt. 25:1-13) because they go into the Marriage Feast with the Bridegroom and the Groomsmen (144,000). Again, this occurs before the Great Tribulation begins. Those that are undergoing the process of Sanctification (through the words of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit) and choose to quit this process before it is complete will never be sealed and will therefore be lost. Grace cannot save these people because they have chosen to reject to words of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Those that cannot complete the process of Sanctification because they die before it is completed are seen by God as having finished the process. This is the grace of Jesus Christ. When they are resurrected in the first resurrection they are sealed, even though they did not officially complete the process of Sanctification when they were alive on earth. If Jesus had not died to pay the penalty for disobedience to the Word/Will/Law of God then even should a person complete the process of Sanctification their righteousness would not count and they would still be required to pay their own penalty, which is the second death, i.e. being dead forever. This is not a good option. Your idea of grace (from Paul) says that the death of Jesus Christ IS your righteousness, therefore you need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification. I have made my choice as to which one of these methods is true, and it is not from Paul. You must choose which one of these methods is the truth. Choose well, your eternal life depends on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Your idea of grace (from Paul) says that the death of Jesus Christ IS your righteousness, therefore you need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification. Where does Paul state this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: MM Your idea of grace (from Paul) says that the death of Jesus Christ IS your righteousness, therefore you need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification. Where does Paul state this? Here are just a few. 2 Cor.12:9. Rom. 5:2. Eph. 2:8. Gal 2:16. Paul talks about being justified a number of places, but he does not talk about sanctification as the process of removing sin from ones life. Jesus Christ speaks of sanctification quite a lot, which shows how important it is to Him that we understand the process and become part of that process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Yes, but not in the context that it was the process by which one becomes righteous through the words of Jesus, God, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul merely says that you become sanctified by faith. 1 Peter 1:2 does talk about sanctification of the Spirit, but frankly I don't know what that means, because we are not sanctified by the Spirit. I do know that Jesus spoke of being sanctified by the words of God and that His word is truth. (John 17:17) And that text also mentions obedience to Jesus Christ, but I do think that the sprinkling of the blood refers to the sprinkling of the blood on the horns of the Alter of Incense, for what ever that is worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Quote: Paul merely says that you become sanctified by faith. I know Jesus said we're sanctified by faith, but where did Paul say we are sanctified by faith? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Quote: Paul merely says that you become sanctified by faith. I know Jesus said we're sanctified by faith, but where did Paul say we are sanctified by faith? Jesus said that we are sanctified by the Word, He did not say we are sanctified by faith. Look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Your idea of grace (from Paul) says that the death of Jesus Christ IS your righteousness, therefore you need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 But the bottom line is, that none of these texts have said what you have claimed, MM. Which is that: "the death of Jesus Christ IS our righteousness, therefore we need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification". I would actually hold that our righteousness is in the life of Christ. But that's a topic for another day. Yes, if the death of Christ is the end-all and be-all, why would Paul write, "If Christ be not raised, we are of all men most miserable." IF Christ be not raised our faith is in vain. The object of the plan of salvation is not to get God killed. It is to transform rebels on this earth into loyal subjects of heaven. God's death was the most spectacular inducement heaven could give to get us to take our eyes off ourselves and off this world. We are to look to Christ. And by beholding we become CHANGED. I believe our salvation depends upon the living Christ, ministering on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary and ministering in our hearts through His Holy Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Richard, In your above treatise you use one text from the OT (Zec 3:3,4), the rest are from Paul in answer my previous post, and you have even used that text out of context. That text does not support what Paul has written, the very things you have quoted in your post. You are trying to convince me that what you and Paul believe to be true is true by using the very person that I and others hold to be false. This tactic will never work. I pointed out to you that Jesus NEVER used the term 'sanctified by faith'. That term was coined by Paul to support his idea as to how salvation works. As you defend your position you did not use ONE text quoting Jesus Christ Himself from either Matthew, Mark or John that supports Paul's (and your) position. Why is that? Because there are none. The text from Zechariah supports and confirms what Jesus taught: that is, one must put off their own filthy garments before a robe of righteousness can but put on them. Nowhere in the OT or in the words of Jesus Christ does it say that our filthy garments are COVERED by the robe of Christ's righteousness. This is strictly a Pauline doctrine, and is patently false as proven by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Yes, according to Paul the "death of Jesus Christ IS our righteousness", but this IS NOT what Jesus Christ taught to His disciples and to us through His very own words. Believe what you will, you will NEVER convince me using the words of Paul that what Paul wrote is valid and the truth. If you want to convince me that you are right then you MUST use only the words of Jesus Christ to confirm those beliefs that you say that I must believe to be saved. The reason you don't do this is because you can't. That is because it is impossible to confirm the totality of Paul's theology using the words of Jesus Christ alone. As for me, I am not trying to convince you of anything because (obviously) you already know it all. You are a 'defender of the Faith'; meaning that you must defend that which you don't understand but believe by faith, in spite of evidence to the contrary. You could be believing the truth or lies, but it doesn't matter what you believe because you have 'faith'. I am not a 'defender of the Faith', I am a proponent of the Truth; and that Truth comes only from Jesus Christ, not from someone that has only made the self-claim that he is 'from God' without any outside corroborating proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Yes, according to Paul the "death of Jesus Christ IS our righteousness", but this IS NOT what Jesus Christ taught to His disciples and to us through His very own words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Richard, Believe WHAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 You yourself said that: Jesus talked a lot about sanctification, therefore it must be important. Did you not? Well, Jesus said to have faith, or believe, way more than He talked about sanctification. So I would think you would be looking to see what Jesus is talking about, instead of asking me: Believe WHAT? You act like He was just saying this to hear the sound of his own voice. Is that what you believe? If you had really read my last post, you would know WHAT. Maybe. But obviously you didn't. It's not complicated. A little child can grasp it. It's right under your nose, just like the "faith" part was. If you really cannot see it, then I would be praying for guidence really hard, because Jesus said without it, you cannot be saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Richard said, " You must believe that anything worth knowing, you already know. " What an absurd statement that is irrelevant of the facts. I am in a search for Truth, which means that I don't know all of it yet. Since you are not ignorant of this I can only surmise that you said this merely as bait to get me to become irrationally emotional. Sorry, it didn't work. You also said in paragraph two of your tome that I have no truth to offer, and you actually are correct in making this statement. I offer NO truth; all I do is point to Truth that comes directly from the words of Jesus Christ. So your statement simply means that you choose not to see the truth of His words, accepting rather the words of almost anyone else as 'gospel'. Although I do have an opinion about what is true and what is not I am simply not smart enough nor have I the hubris that it takes to declare that which YOU must believe to be true to achieve salvation. I don't need to do this because there are plenty of people out there like you that do this well enough such that I don't have that need. I say this because although you did well in stating your opinion in defending your position most of what you wrote was thinly veiled in personal attack. I would rather that you merely say you disagree with me and point out why rather than spend so much time expressing your opinion as to my lack of intellect, Scriptural understanding, or devotion to the truth as fact. Just because you say it does not automatically make it true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 HEY Richard, How come you claim to be an Adventist? If you believe what Paul wrote in Eph. 2:8, could you please show me why you think being an Adventist is better than being any other type of Christian? What is the 'mystery' Paul wrote about in Eph. 3:3? Is this something new that Jesus failed to tell His disciples about when Jesus was here on earth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.