What is meant by ...

[Guest]

Ok MM, I'll try to be more gentle in my approach. I didn't say you lacked intellect, I said you are wise in your own eyes. And you are. If one were to take you and Rich seriously, and I have to include wayfinder also, since he is the leader. Then one would have to come to the conclusion that you are the "Three Wise Men". The only ones on the planet that have a true understanding of Daniel and Revelation.

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes

You are wise enough (in your own eyes) to know which books of the Bible are inspired by Satan, and need to be done away with. You are even wiser than the prophet that God gave to his people, so they could see what lies ahead. She was shown that there would be people just like you, who would try and tear down the pillars of our faith, that were put in place by God Himself. Yes, she saw you, and others like you a hundred years before you were even born. That's why you need to dispense with her, first and foremost. Because it is a scathing rebuke for you to read what she said about you and others, who would tear down the pillars and remove the foundation.

You cannot doubt that the pillars and the foundation were put in place by God, and at the same time, believe that this is God's Church. A brief study of how God has led his people in the past, would show this cannot be the case. That is not how God operates. Never has, never will. Besides that it doesn't even make sense.

All that being said, I did go a little beyond my main intention in the post above, that you have commented on. I went ahead and showed from the books that you claim to believe, that faith in Jesus is a requirement for salvation. One has to believe that He is the son of God, and that salvation is his to give, not yours to take. I also showed that salvation is a gift. There is no way you can earn it, and there is no way you can take it on your own. There is no salvation outside of Jesus. And you can't even come to Jesus on your own.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

But the main point I made two posts back, was that the four texts you gave as proof that:

(MM)

"Paul says that the death of Jesus Christ IS your righteousness, therefore you need not and indeed cannot ever become righteous through the process of Sanctification".

Do not state this at all. Not even remotely. To which you turned around and stated the same falshood again. This time you have seemingly changed the subject, so as not to have to look at that glaring fact. But the fact remains. The four texts that you gave have been shown not to say what you claimed they did.

[Musicman1228]

Thank you for your kind response. Here is mine.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Rom. 1:16-17)

1) The gospel of whom?

2) Believe in what?

3) Different gospels for Jew and Greeks?

4) For in salvation (IT) God's righteousness is revealed by faith?

This demonstrates Paul's idea of salvation by faith. Again, I ask you to compare this ides with what Jesus Christ taught outside of the gospel of Paul. The differences are orders of magnitude apart.

In comparison:

1) The gospel of Paul vs. the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2) Believe in salvation by grace through faith vs. the process of sanctification.

3) Different methods of salvation for Jew (Law) and gentile (grace) vs. one way for all.

4) Faith in grace (Paul) vs. Trust in the words of Jesus Christ - sanctify them by the Truth, Thy Word is Truth.

[Guest]

MM, is that really the best you can do? to make misstatements, and pretend that you can't understand Paul at all?

You act as if Paul were speaking a different language. And don't think I didn't notice that you didn't bother to bring up the four texts that you were plainly shown to be wrong about. But that's ok, I won't belabor the point. I don't have a lot of time to spend repeating myself.

This argument you have presented goes nowhere. It is mostly just you pretending to be baffled by the plainest of statements. Pretending to believe a negative, doesn't prove a positive.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Rom. 1:16-17)

1) The gospel of whom? ....This almost goes without saying. Even children can answer this. The slightest bit of study will show that there is only one true gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ.

2) Believe in what? .....Again you're feigning ignorance. Jesus Christ of course. I know you used to study Paul, so why do you pretend to have no idea what he is talking about. It doesn't help your case.

3) Different gospels for Jew and Greeks? .....This is pathetic. Even your question here is counterfeit. Anybody can glance at the text you quoted, and see that he says absolutely nothing about two different gospels. Quite the opposite. He says: for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew and also to the greek.

When you ask a dishonest question like that, it really hurts your credibility instead of helping it. Because people can see right through what you're trying to do.

4) For in salvation (IT) God's righteousness is revealed by faith?...That's right. You can read the Bible all day long, but if you don't believe what it says, or have any faith in it. The words won't help you at all. They won't change you, they won't sanctify you, and they won't reveal anything to you, if you don't have faith.

(belief) (trust). This is why Jesus keeps telling you over and over, you gotta have it.

I will address the rest of your post when I get back home. I'm out of time right now.

[Musicman1228]

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:6-9.

The problem, Richard, is that Paul himself said that his gospel is a different gospel than the gospel taught by the 'pillars' who are the disciples of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Those are his words, not mine.

The SOME of whom he speaks are the same Disciples that he rails against other places in his writing-those whom he holds in contempt because he feels that his gospel is superior to theirs.

He then makes a very bold statement: that if anyone, including an angel from Heaven, preaches a CONTRARY GOSPEL from his that they should be ACCURSED. Fancy saying that about an angel from Heaven. Who would send an angel from Heaven except the God of Heaven. Can the God of Heaven be incorrect in the gospel HE wants preached? According to Paul, YES. Therefore, Paul is placing himself above the God of Heaven with respect to how he views his own gospel. Is this not blaspheme?

Then, just to make sure he is perfectly understood, he restates the same thing. Do you understand this completely?

So what you are telling me, Richard, is that this Paul that you trust completely in his gospel, this different gospel from the one that is being preached by the eyewitness Apostles in Jerusalem, the gospel that they learned directly from Jesus Christ Himself, is the gospel you trust completely for your salvation. All I can say is Wow! Good luck with that.

[pnattmbtc]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Rom. 1:16-17)

1) The gospel of whom?

2) Believe in what?

3) Different gospels for Jew and Greeks?

4) For in salvation (IT) God's righteousness is revealed by faith?

[Musicman1228]

pnattmbtc said, "Jesus spoke of being "sanctified by faith."

As yet no one has given me a reference text for this supposed quote. Maybe I'm missing something.

The Word of Jesus Christ is the Truth, just as is says in the above quoted Scripture. To be saved a person cannot just believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour (which is important) they must also believe in HIS words which are the Truth. Jesus did not say that the words of anyone else are the Truth. This also applies to the words of God in the OT, which (not surprisingly) are the very words that Jesus said He came to speak-because the only words He spoke were the words that the Father gave Him to speak.

[Guest]

The problem, Richard, is that Paul himself said that his gospel is a different gospel than the gospel taught by the 'pillars' who are the disciples of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Those are his words, not mine.

Show me where Paul says this. He doesn't say it in the text you quoted above. But of course you knew that. Why didn't you just go ahead and give the text where he says it, instead of making me ask for it. You know I can't take your claims at face value. As I pointed out in my last post, your attempts at discrediting Paul are, shall we say, less than honest.

So far you haven't been able to back up any of your claims. I'm beginning to wonder what your beliefs are actually based on.

[Guest]

How you get two different gospels is hard to comprehend when Paul so clearly says "to the Jew first and also to the Greek." I don't know how he could have more clearly indicated that he had the same gospel in mind for both.

Amen pnat

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: MM

The problem, Richard, is that Paul himself said that his gospel is a different gospel than the gospel taught by the 'pillars' who are the disciples of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem. Those are his words, not mine.

Show me where Paul says this. He doesn't say it in the text you quoted above. But of course you knew that. Why didn't you just go ahead and give the text where he says it, instead of making me ask for it. You know I can't take your claims at face value. As I pointed out in my last post, your attempts at discrediting Paul are, shall we say, less than honest.

So far you haven't been able to back up any of your claims. I'm beginning to wonder what your beliefs are actually based on.

I've given this text several times in response to this and other queries, but here it is again.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:6-9.

Paul is speaking of a different gospel, his gospel as opposed to another gospel that is contrary to his. So what is this 'contrary gospel'?

[pnattmbtc]

The contrary gospel is any gospel which is not the gospel of Christ.

[Guest]

There were people back then, just as there are today, who would pervert the gospel of Christ. There was a group that was trying to say that you still needed to be circumcized.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them....

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 24:14 is critical in the understanding that there were two gospels. Jesus said that the "gospel of [about] the Kingdom [of Heaven] is the one that will be preached, not the 'gospel of Jesus Christ'.

When Jesus was here He repeatedly taught and spoke about the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

Paul's gospel can be found in Romans 10:4-14. Notice how Paul conveniently misquoted Isa. 28:16? Hmmm?

So Paul said there is no difference between being a Jew and a Greek. Did Jesus ever say this? Didn't Jesus say He only came to save the lost from Israel? Who would that be?

Later in Romans Paul presented a picture where a wild branch could be grafted onto a cultivated olive tree. He then claimed that a branch cut off from the cultivated tree could be re-grafted on to the cultivated tree. What in the world is this all about? Compare this with John 15:4-11 and John 3. Jesus never said anything about being 'adopted' into the family either. From what I find in the words of Jesus, one must be born into this family--no "ifs of buts" about this! So, from what I read, there is certainly two different gospels.

[Guest]

Rich you are one confused individual.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: MM

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Rom. 1:16-17)

1) The gospel of whom?

2) Believe in what?

3) Different gospels for Jew and Greeks?

4) For in salvation (IT) God's righteousness is revealed by faith?

Is "IT" the same as "it"? That is, the "it" of "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed ..." (as opposed, for example, for an abbreviation of some sort). If so, you're misidentifying what "it" is, which is not salvation, but the gospel. Paul said that the gospel is the of God for salvation, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek, for in it "the gospel" the righteousness of God is revealed.

How you get two different gospels is hard to comprehend when Paul so clearly says "to the Jew first and also to the Greek." I don't know how he could have more clearly indicated that he had the same gospel in mind for both.

Quote:

This demonstrates Paul's idea of salvation by faith. Again, I ask you to compare this ides with what Jesus Christ taught outside of the gospel of Paul. The differences are orders of magnitude apart.

In comparison:

1) The gospel of Paul vs. the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2) Believe in salvation by grace through faith vs. the process of sanctification.

Jesus spoke of being "sanctified by faith." Jesus also taught justification by faith, nowhere more clearly than John 3, although all throughout John the teaching is very clear.

Quote:

3) Different methods of salvation for Jew (Law) and gentile (grace) vs. one way for all.

There's only one way of salvation, which is through Christ. This is what Paul taught. Always and forever. Jesus said the same thing. For example, "You search the Scriptures hoping to find eternal life, but they are they which testify of me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life." We receive life by receiving Christ. Life is in Him. This is the teaching of all Scripture, whether Paul or John or anyone else.

Quote:

4) Faith in grace (Paul)

Not faith in grace, but faith in Christ.

Quote:

vs. Trust in the words of Jesus Christ

Not trust in words, but trust in a Person.

Quote:

- sanctify them by the Truth, Thy Word is Truth.

Which is Christ.

That's right pnat. Jesus Christ is the Word. I guess they haven't discovered that yet. Try to be patient with them.

I wonder if they know Jesus created the world?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4

John 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

He that follows who?

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Grace?

Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

Grace? From Jesus? NO WAY!! They told me Jesus didn't believe in Grace. Or faith!!

Matt 9:2 and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the paralytic; Son, be of good cheer; your sins be forgiven you.

You mean faith is somehow connected to the forgiveness of sins?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes (has faith) in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Believes = G4100 pist-yoo'-o

to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing)

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "That's right pnat. Jesus Christ is the Word. I guess they haven't discovered that yet. Try to be patient with them.

I wonder if they know Jesus created the world?"

Richard, I am truly having a difficult time holding my tongue. I will, because I recognize that you are deliberately baiting me. I also refuse to stoop to your level of discourse, and plan to keep the conversation on a non-emotional level.

It does amaze me that when this comes up in discussions both here and elsewhere that Christians just can't seem to see that there are indeed two gospels; 1) the gospel of the Kingdom according to Jesus Christ, and 2) the gospel of Jesus Christ according to Paul.

When I broach those differences with Christians the standard reply is something like, "Well, Jesus didn't finish giving all of the information that we need to the Disciples while He was here on earth, so He came down and converted Paul on the road to Damascus so that He could finish the job."

They quote the verse where Jesus said that He had many more things to tell the Disciples but they weren't ready for it. (John 16:12) They site this as the reason Jesus needed to turn Saul into Paul and into what the Christian church calls the Greatest Apostle. When Jesus said this it was before His death on the cross, a time when His Disciples weren't ready for any additional information.

Yet because God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and because Jesus IS God it makes no sense to me that Jesus would change anything that He told His eyewitness Disciples in favor of a vile murderer that was, in fact, converted by force by a being he never saw, not being given any choice in the matter. There is no record in Scripture of God EVER doing this before when He called a Prophet of Disciple.

The other issue is that Jesus did have 40 additional days with the Disciples before His second and final ascension back to heaven. I believe it is during this time, after His death and resurrection and before His finally going back to His Father, that Jesus gave the additional instruction to His Disciples that they needed to carry the message of the Kingdom of God to the world. All teaching has a proper time for the learning.

I you really read the totality of what Jesus spoke to His own Disciples while here on earth and what He is supposed to have told Paul in the desert you will see some marked contrasts, which we have been discussing here.

Here are just a few questions the answers to which will confirm this conflict between Paul and Jesus.

Why were the Disciples in Jerusalem sending missionaries to the churches that Paul founded and telling these churches a different gospels than what Paul told them? Why did Paul get so upset at this? (Gal.1:6, Gal.3:)

Why would Paul call down a curse on anyone that would preach a gospel different from the one he was preaching if he didn't feel that his gospel was superior to that 'different' gospel being promoted from Jerusalem? (Gal.1:8)

Why did Paul say that Jesus Christ was 'declared the Son of God upon His resurrection from the dead? (Rom. 1:4) Didn't Jesus become the Son of God upon His human birth? (Luke 1:35, Matt.1:21-23)

There are literally hundreds more questions like these that call into question the source of the information Paul was getting. The real and true Jesus Christ the Son of God would certainly not have given Paul this kind of information. If not Him then who?

A deep abiding faith precludes answering these questions honestly, because nothing (no amount of truth) will shake a deep abiding faith in a lie. Facts are irrelevant to someone with a deep abiding faith in a god of their own choosing. I hear people all the time saying, "My God wouldn't do that", or "My God isn't that way", "My God wouldn't let this happen", "My God wouldn't allow lies in the Bible". It is these people that put God-in-a-box, having invented who they believe Him to be because viewing the truth about who and what God really is is too painful. And this, my friends, is just what Satan wants. He doesn't care what god you believe in, even if it is not him, as long as you believe in a god that is not the God of Creation. This is the reason for the first Commandment. Don't let this happen to you.

[Guest]

I know you believe all this MM. You clearly have a deep abiding faith in it. That's why no amount of truth, or persuasion, will move you off of it, or change your mind.

[Musicman1228]

Richard, again you evaded the questions. I don't blame you. If I believed as do you I wouldn't want to answer them either.

[Guest]

I haven't evaded anything. I just see the futility of going over the same ground with you, over, and over, and over. Don't ever tell anybody you don't have faith. You have shown that you have a deep and abiding faith, as you put it. Too bad it is wasted on falsehood.

[wayfinder]

Richard, believing that something is true with all your heart, mind and being does not make it true, it is only true if it is true. You can say we are wrong until the cows come home, that does not make us wrong and you right, or vise versa. Truth is true because it can stand close investigation and not fall apart. This cannot be said about Paul's testimony, no matter what you believe. We have only Paul's word as to who was giving it to him. Paul never ever worked with any of Jesus disciples. Paul's message is very different from the testimony of the Son of God. Paul makes clear that his message was mainly for Gentiles. God's message was for all people and the requirements were the same for all people, all people had to keep the same covenant.

[Guest]

Nice try wayf. Suffice it to say: You're wrong.

[wayfinder]

Richard: Time will tell, but if you are the one who is wrong, how do you like your Crow, fried or barbecued? :)

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

Just because you say you have proven something does not make it so just because you say it. This is circular reasoning and is exactly the same thing said in the same way as Paul, which means you are a good student of his. I am, however, a student of the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, and Him alone. I don't understand why you have such a problem with this. Do you remember the hymn "All to Jesus I Surrender"? In your case it might be better titled "All to Jesus I Surrender, except that which I have Surrendered to Paul". That title is a little long for me.

[doug yowell]

Richard, believing that something is true with all your heart, mind and being does not make it true, it is only true if it is true. You can say we are wrong until the cows come home, that does not make us wrong and you right, or vise versa. Truth is true because it can stand close investigation and not fall apart. This cannot be said about Paul's testimony, no matter what you believe. We have only Paul's word as to who was giving it to him. Paul never ever worked with any of Jesus disciples. Paul's message is very different from the testimony of the Son of God. Paul makes clear that his message was mainly for Gentiles. God's message was for all people and the requirements were the same for all people, all people had to keep the same covenant.

Please, Wayfinder. If you want to be taken seriously as understanding the NT you have to at least tape the red words back into the original book and then actually read the black ones too.(I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be there as well.)

[Guest]

Amen Doug

[Musicman1228]

Again, Doug, only because you say so? Aside from the fact that no one takes any decenter on this forum seriously. If you don't toe the official Adventist line you cannot be 'in the club'. Here on this forum anyone with a substantially different viewpoint is automatically labeled a heretic. Hm! Let me see, wasn't Martin Luther considered a heretic by his church? Wm Miller was also called names by his church. Certainly Jesus Christ was considered to be a heretic within His religion and culture. If I am a heretic I am in good company.

[Remember the narrow gate and the narrow way.]