The Second Coming

[Gerr]

Doesn't it make sense that those who make more pay more?

"To whom much is given, much is required."

[karl]

Shane, I think you're wrong about the SS tax. There is a 1.5% element that has no income ceiling. The US tax burden is obscene, and, as you have pointed out, somewhat nefariously hidden from the eyes of citizens.

When most people go to buy a house, a car, a computer or a new refrigerator, they not only have to ask the price but must base a large part of their buying decision on the answer.

But when we ask ourselves whether we pay too much for government, how are we to know? One of the great faults of our tax systems is that so much of the tax burden is hidden from us. The only taxes we can be relatively sure about are our personal federal and state income taxes.

When we add the federal budget deficit to total taxes collected in 2009, an unprecedented budget deficit over $1.5 trillion produces a "government-paid-for-date" of May 29. This is the latest date in the year this deficit-inclusive measure has ever fallen. The only previous years when taxes and deficit spending comprised a similarly large share of national income were 1944 and 1945, at the peak of World War II.

When you look at your pay stub, you see the amount of federal and state income tax withheld. Hidden from you, however, is the amount of payroll tax paid on your behalf by your employer. This amount was subtracted from your salary at the outset. When you receive a dividend check or you see the dividend earnings in your mutual fund or pension fund, nowhere listed is the amount of corporate income tax that was subtracted from the value of your investments. When you tally your consumption expenditures at the end of the year, how can you figure the amount of state and local sales taxes paid on your purchases? Do you know how much federal telephone excise tax you paid? Tire tax? Gasoline tax?

Of course, if you worked very hard at it you could estimate each of these tax payments and tally them up to estimate your total tax bill for the year. But you should not have to. Just as you would not buy a car without knowing its price, you should not tolerate being ignorant of the total price of government, if you had a choice.

The hidden nature of so many of our taxes serves to hide the true cost and size of government. It is not difficult to read cynical and sinister motivations into such a result. But even casting such insinuations aside, clearly the lack of transparency in many elements of the overall tax system and the lack of a tallying of the total tax bill are failings that should be remedied.

With taxes rising at all levels of government, politicians and pundits often ask why efforts at reducing taxes are apparently met with public apathy. Clearly, one reason is that very few people see the full extent of their rising tax burden because much of the increase is hidden. No one protests what they do not know.

[Gerr]

I don't look at asking those who are able to pay more as penalty. It is for the common good. There are a lot of people who have not been blessed with enough talents to make the kind of money you rich people make. And how about the disabled? Especially the disabled veterans defending your freedom to make money?

I am deeply disturbed hearing comments that appear to me as just me me me, my money, my property, and lacking compassion for the less fortunate, and coming from professedly Christian sources. The second table in God's law is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

[karl]

I don't look at asking those who are able to pay more as penalty. It is for the common good. There are a lot of people who have not been blessed with enough talents to make the kind of money you rich people make. And how about the disabled? Especially the disabled veterans defending your freedom to make money?

I am deeply disturbed hearing comments that appear to me as just me me me, my money, my property, and lacking compassion for the less fortunate, and coming from professedly Christian sources. The second table in God's law is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Interesting accusations, Gerry. And they are based on.... what?

You clearly do not see the "redistribution of wealth" as theft. You say this is just a request? We are just "asking" the producers in our nation to ante up? Are you just gonna amble over to your neighbor and love him into paying other people's bills or are you gonna get the government to hold its gun to his head and take it by force? "Loving your neighbor as yourself" does not include taking stuff from him by force.

Go to California. See how things are there now that they have taxed so much of their industry out of the state. They've got cleaner air because nobody wants to produce much there anymore. California's former industry has successfully moved to Arizona, Seattle, Oregon, Nevada, Mexico, and elsewhere.

We wanted to build a new sanctuary for the house-church we started in Phelan, California. When we went to the building department the grafters came out of the woodwork. Gotta bring in a new water line for the fire department from two blocks away. Gotta pave the street. Gotta spend $150K before we even begin to build. This is twice what we were going to invest in our metal building.

Forget it. We'll just limp along and use a tent if we have to.

This is the way government penalizes and paralyzes progress.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Sounds like somebody has been listening only to liberal talking heads. (mainstream media) Nothing could be further from the truth. They absolutely do have a positive plan for this country. But the dems don't want to hear it. (they don't want anybody else to hear it either.) So they just keep repeating the lie. That conservatives don't have a plan.

Anyone who only looks to the mainstream for their news, will never truly know what is going on. The truth will never be found by people who really don't want to know what it is.

The fact remains the republicans cannot stop what the dem leadership wants. It is dems stopping dems from passing some of this garbage in to law

Thank God for those democrats.

[Guest]

How can we know that the GOP has no real positive agenda for America?

You can't, because you won't listen to what they have to say. But as long as you tune in the mainstream media, you can believe anything you want, because they only say what you're used to hearing.

[Jeannieb43]

I don't look at asking those who are able to pay more as penalty. It is for the common good. There are a lot of people who have not been blessed with enough talents to make the kind of money you rich people make. And how about the disabled? Especially the disabled veterans defending your freedom to make money?

I am deeply disturbed hearing comments that appear to me as just me me me, my money, my property, and lacking compassion for the less fortunate, and coming from professedly Christian sources. The second table in God's law is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Consider the benefits we all receive from paying our taxes: police, fire, roadways, etc., are all paid from our taxes. We get good value for what we pay. We're just spoiled, because it's always been that way for us.

When my DH and I were traveling in Scandinavia we asked the tour guide about their tax rate. They all pay FIFTY PER CENT [50%] income tax! But they get "cradle-to-grave" care from the government. No worries about where to put Granny and Grandpa when they can't manage at home any longer; everybody just naturally expects to be cared for in the government-run retirement hotels. Nobody complains about that lifestyle, either; they just expect it. They didn't complain; they just expected to have only 50% of their paycheck to use as discretionary income. Everybody's happy there, too.

[Dr. Shane]

The skyrocketing deficit of last year and this current year are troubling to me. I am also very disturbed that Obama is forecasting future deficits of the same size and blaming Bush for them. I haven't forgotten that Obama agreed with Bush's final budget and was part of putting it together.

That said, the US does provide much better services for our tax dollars than many other countries do. There are even more hidden taxes in most countries. Here on the border, we are flooded with Mexicans coming here to buy clothing, appliances and electronics because they so much cheaper here. The reason they are so expensive in Mexico is due to a hidden tax placed on them there.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I don't look at asking those who are able to pay more as penalty. It is for the common good. "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

When my DH and I were traveling in Scandinavia we asked the tour guide about their tax rate. They all pay FIFTY PER CENT [50%] income tax! But they get "cradle-to-grave" care from the government. Everybody's happy there, too.

The population of Norway has increased from 4 million in 1975 to 4.6 million last year. Clearly everyone is flocking there to pursue happiness.

Finland's growth rate is 0.17%.

Denmark's population is about the same as it was in 1960

Sweden has the highest growth rate, at 0.79% per year.

I've been hoping for a mass exodus of libs from the US to these Scandinavian socialist paradises (or even Canada) but I just don't think it is happening.

Let me tell you right now, if there were a country on earth with tariff taxes and a value-based currency, I and the bulk of the world's producers would be moving there ASAP.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I am deeply disturbed hearing comments that appear to me as just me me me, my money, my property, and lacking compassion for the less fortunate, and coming from professedly Christian sources. The second table in God's law is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Interesting accusations, Gerry. And they are based on.... what?

You clearly do not see the "redistribution of wealth" as theft. You say this is just a request?

“Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?" Isa 58:6,7 ESV

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Mic 6:8 ESV

[Gerr]

Quote:

The population of Norway has increased from 4 million in 1975 to 4.6 million last year. Clearly everyone is flocking there to pursue happiness.

Finland's growth rate is 0.17%.

Denmark's population is about the same as it was in 1960

Sweden has the highest growth rate, at 0.79% per year.

I've been hoping for a mass exodus of libs from the US to these Scandinavian socialist paradises (or even Canada) but I just don't think it is happening.

Let me tell you right now, if there were a country on earth with tariff taxes and a value-based currency, I and the bulk of the world's producers would be moving there ASAP.

The population growth in Western Europe is low because of birth control, not because they are all coming to the USA. A very significant segment of their labor force are foreigners. Even in the bastion of Catholicism, the average Italian family has 1.25 children. So when we were in Italy, I was shocked to see so many Filipinos there, and Romanians. In Germany they have Turks and Eastern Europeans. In France they have their Muslims. In Britain, they have people from all their former colonies.

And if you think the prosperity of the USA is solely due to capitalism, you are sorely mistaken.

[karl]

Quote:

The population of Norway has increased from 4 million in 1975 to 4.6 million last year. Clearly everyone is flocking there to pursue happiness.

Finland's growth rate is 0.17%.

Denmark's population is about the same as it was in 1960

Sweden has the highest growth rate, at 0.79% per year.

I've been hoping for a mass exodus of libs from the US to these Scandinavian socialist paradises (or even Canada) but I just don't think it is happening.

Let me tell you right now, if there were a country on earth with tariff taxes and a value-based currency, I and the bulk of the world's producers would be moving there ASAP.

The population growth in Western Europe is low because of birth control, not because they are all coming to the USA. A very significant segment of their labor force are foreigners. Even in the bastion of Catholicism, the average Italian family has 1.25 children. So when we were in Italy, I was shocked to see so many Filipinos there, and Romanians. In Germany they have Turks and Eastern Europeans. In France they have their Muslims. In Britain, they have people from all their former colonies.

And if you think the prosperity of the USA is solely due to capitalism, you are sorely mistaken.

Maybe you could explain to me how something other than the free market is making us all prosperous, Gerry. I'd like to see such an explanation. What is it about, say, entitlements, that makes the USA prosperous?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I am deeply disturbed hearing comments that appear to me as just me me me, my money, my property, and lacking compassion for the less fortunate, and coming from professedly Christian sources. The second table in God's law is: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Interesting accusations, Gerry. And they are based on.... what?

You clearly do not see the "redistribution of wealth" as theft. You say this is just a request?

[Gerr]

Quote:

And if you think the prosperity of the USA is solely due to capitalism, you are sorely mistaken.

Maybe you could explain to me how something other than the free market is making us all prosperous, Gerry. I'd like to see such an explanation. What is it about, say, entitlements, that makes the USA prosperous?

In the annals of human history, the growth of nations, the rise and fall of empires, appear as if dependent on the will and prowess of man; the shaping of events seems, to a great degree, to be determined by his power, ambition, or caprice. But in the word of God the curtain is drawn aside, and we behold, above, behind, and through all the play and counterplay of human interest and power and passions, the agencies of the All-merciful One, silently, patiently working out the counsels of His own will. . . . {CC 250.3}

A Condition of Prosperity

The contributions required of the Hebrews for religious and charitable purposes amounted to fully one fourth of their income. So heavy a tax upon the resources of the people might be expected to reduce them to poverty; but, on the contrary, the faithful observance of these regulations was one of the conditions of their prosperity. On condition of their obedience, God made them this promise, "I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field. . . . And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts."--PP 527. {CSW 146.2}

God has revealed in His law the principles that underlie all true prosperity both of nations and of individuals. "This is your wisdom and your understanding," Moses declared to the Israelites of the law of God. "It is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life." Deuteronomy 4:6; 32:47. The blessings thus assured to Israel are, on the same conditions and in the same degree, assured to every nation and every individual under the broad heavens. {Ed 174.1}

[Gerr]

Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and down-trodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {GC88 441.1}

[bonnie]

Quote:

“Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?" Isa 58:6,7 ESV

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Mic 6:8 ESV

The instruction to individual christians is not quite the same as forced giving thru the government.

Forced giving is not free will charity. What the Lord requires of me and what the government has the right to force me is miles and miles apart

[Dr. Shane]

Is the position of some here that the government has the right to tax me in order to build armies, draft soldiers and fight wars but not build low-income housing and feed the poor?

[Gerr]

And why should help for the less fortunate segments of society fall only to those kind-hearted citizens? There's not enough of them.

Look at the causes for the instability of many countries on this world. Is it not the great divide between the poor masses and the rich who could care less about them?

1 And now, you rich people, listen to me! Weep and wail over the miseries that are coming upon you!

2 Your riches have rotted away, and your clothes have been eaten by moths.

3 Your gold and silver are covered with rust, and this rust will be a witness against you and will eat up your flesh like fire. You have piled up riches in these last days.

4 You have not paid any wages to those who work in your fields. Listen to their complaints! The cries of those who gather in your crops have reached the ears of God, the Lord Almighty.

5 Your life here on earth has been full of luxury and pleasure. You have made yourselves fat for the day of slaughter. Jam 5:1-5 GNT

[karl]

Is the position of some here that the government has the right to tax me in order to build armies, draft soldiers and fight wars but not build low-income housing and feed the poor?

None of the above.

Check out these TJ quotes:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.

An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

- Thomas Jefferson

[Gerr]

NO ONE is advocating that we swallow everything the gov't does or propose to do.

And when you say, "None of the above," are you saying the gov't has no right to tax, build armies, draft soldiers,

or build low-income housing for the poor?

[karl]

NO ONE is advocating that we swallow everything the gov't does or propose to do.

And when you say, "None of the above," are you saying the gov't has no right to tax, build armies, draft soldiers,

or build low-income housing for the poor?

We don't need standing armies, Gerry. Switzerland has proved that. Our founders envsioned a militia just like Switzerland has. The libs, on the other hand, want everybody except the gov disarmed. Suicidal.

We need the smallest, least intrusive government possible. This is what made America great. Entitlements are ruining it. It is wrong to rob Peter to pay Paul. State welfare on all levels, corporate, international, and personal is wrong.

If you empower your government to take money from one group of people and give it to another, it is a very small step from that to empowering government to kill one group of people to benefit another.

When government takes a person's money or property it is taking a portion of that person's life. Whatever portion of his life he engaged to obtain the money or property becomes forfeit to whatever the government decides to do with it. Tax freedom day last year was May 29. That means that every working minute of every working day for every working American was forfeit to government for nearly the first half of the year. This is obscene.

Theft is murder, in a sense.

If you want to empower your government to take one person's, or group of people's, life in order to benefit another person, or group of people, you just go right ahead. But please understand that I'm going to fight you and all of your ilk. It is wrong, and this power is so easily abused by government I am shocked you don't see the danger in it. You seem to be in love with it.

Voluntary charity is what you keep throwing quotes up there about, and I have no problem with it. God clearly asks us to do this and I engage in a lot of it.

Involuntary charity, on the other hand, is an oxymoron.

Please do me the favor of reading this little story about Davy Crockett and then get back to me. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html

[Woody]

"This was a sockdolager"

[bonnie]

Is the position of some here that the government has the right to tax me in order to build armies, draft soldiers and fight wars but not build low-income housing and feed the poor?

Providing a army to protect this land is something for the government.The ordinary citizen cannot do so. Citizens cannot provide the infrastructure. The country has to provide a means to prevent citizens from harming each other. The role of government was meant to be minimal.

What so many seem to want is to expand and expand the entitlements,so that no one is responsible for their own well being.

I am not entitled to any ones money or resources. Those that receive welfare unless they are ill or handicapped should have to pay it back.I don't care if it is ten dollars a month.Once they begin work take it out automatically as they do child support checks.Once someone believes they are entitled to what I have there is no end of the entitlements they believe they should receive. I would not let anyone go hungry if I could prevent it. If I found a hungry man on a street corner I would see to it he was fed,no matter what the reason he was without. If finding him there the next week I probably would still help him The third week still standing there with his hand out,not a chance.

If many of these entitlements were dropped you would see a big shift from "I can't,government take care of me" to I can and I had best get busy

[Gerr]

Without the armed forces, we'd probably be speaking Japanese or German. Citing Swiss as an example is ridiculous. Number 1, they have a long history of neutrality. They keep their noses out of other nation's business. Number 2, what moron would want to spend their resources just to control the Alps?

[Gerr]

I hate welfare for the able-bodied!