American Muslim Calls Mass Murderer a Role Model

[karl]

There is something called "prison", you know. It does not involve destroying people, and it keeps them from continuing to break the law.

I didn't say prison wasn't an option.

Do you think there has been, since the Bible times, a criminal or person so heinous that he deserved the death penalty?

[SivartM]

I don't know! How heinous does one have to be? Is there a rating scale?

[karl]

I don't know! How heinous does one have to be? Is there a rating scale?

OK, you're off the hook if you cannot think of a single person who has existed since Biblical times who deserved the death penalty. Clearly, people must be getting better in your view.

[Chronicle]

While some here may think that all muslims are violent or have violent intentions, I wonder what the world would be like if all of one billion muslims decide to kill somebody or even just one percent of them decide to kill somebody ? Just cazy how one sixth of the world population gets judged on the actions of a minority of a minority.

God has called us to love all the same. I don't know where this us and them attidude comes from within the ranks of some of our Adventist thinking themselves more worthy than the muslim.

[SivartM]

Welcome to Club Adventist, 2721ROCKS! And I totally agree.

[Chronicle]

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I don't think God has prohibited a country from defending itself.

Countries are not defined or created by God. Countries with borders is man instituted and man has provided his own solutions in in this matter.

[bonnie]

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I don't think God has prohibited a country from defending itself.

Countries are not defined or created by God. Countries with borders is man instituted and man has provided his own solutions in in this matter.

We have many things not "created" by God.

[John317]

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SivartM:There is something called "prison", you know. It does not involve destroying people, and it keeps them from continuing to break the law.

People in prison break the law all the time. Many convicted murderers continue to murder even while in prison. In fact, the man who was justifiably executed last night committed murder while he was in court for committing an earlier murder.

God Himself said, "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed; because in the image of God He made man." Gen. 9: 6.

God also commanded: "Whoever kills a man shall be put to death." Lev. 24: 27.

Paul was inspired by God to write that the governments of the world are "God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." Romans 13: 4.

[SivartM]

Whoever kills a man? Okay.

People who should die/should have died:

David

Paul (whom you quote, and who apparently says that the North Korean government is God's minister)

Moses

Every soldier who ever lived

Reformed murderers who are now Christians

Gideon (and Samson and all the judges and, well, pretty much everyone in the Old Testament)

I can't even remember how many stories I've read of people who had killed at least one person, and by and by they became Christians. But I guess they should have been killed first.

[John317]

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SivartM: Every soldier who ever lived

Do you believe that soldier's fighting for their country are "murderers" if they take human life in the course of battle?

In your judgment, were American soldiers in the Civil War, the Revolutionary War, or WW II "murderers"?

[SivartM]

You said (yes, I know, quoting the Bible) that everyone who kills a man should die.

Are those people killing men? Yes. So you are saying that they should die.

Or is killing people in battle okay, when walking up to that person in the street (if you were both civilians) and killing them is wrong?

[John317]

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SivartM: How should I know if someone is so depraved or dangerous that he or she should be put to death? For all I know, if they aren't killed, the next day they will become a Christian.

Even if a murderer becomes a Christian, he has to pay for his crimes. Society can't say that if a person murders someone but then becomes converted, he should avoid punishment. People whom God forgives usually go on to reap the painful consequences of their sins in this life.

[SivartM]

I didn't say that we shouldn't punish anyone. I'm asking whether or not we should kill them. Obviously, we punish plenty of people without killing them.

[John317]

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SivartM: You said (yes, I know, quoting the Bible) that everyone who kills a man should die.

Are those people killing men? Yes. So you are saying that they should die.

I thought you would understand. "Killing" == murder. Not self-defense or while obeying the command of God or while in the military obeying lawful orders of one's superiors. See Numbers 35: 9ff; Deut. 19; Joshua 20.

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Or is killing people in battle okay, when walking up to that person in the street (if you were both civilians) and killing them is wrong?

From the viewpoint of human society, yes.

A Christian would have to decide the answer for themselves. It would have to be between the believer and God. We can't answer this question for other people. I chose not to train or carry a weapon during the Vietnam war. But I never considered other soldiers who did differently to be wrong. The same with Desmond Doss.

But no court of law anywhere in the world would find a man guilty of murder if he killed enemy soldiers in the course of a battle between opposing armies.

When God ordered men into battle to kill enemies, those soldiers were never considered "murderers" by God. See Deut.13. On the contrary some of them were considered great heroes. God blessed some men, such as Phinehas, for killing people. See Judges 5; Joshua 10; and Numbers 25: 6-18.

[John317]

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SivartM: I didn't say that we shouldn't punish anyone. I'm asking whether or not we should kill them. Obviously, we punish plenty of people without killing them.

Yes, I understand. I didn't mean to imply that you were suggesting criminals shouldn't be punished.

I believe there are some crimes for which death is the only just and appropriate punishment.

The Bible certainly supports that viewpoint.

Some people believe Christ's words about forgiving one's enemies mean that He taught that criminals shouldn't be killed for their crimes, but I don't believe Jesus intended for us to understand His words that way. Christ was talking to His followers, not to states and governments. As an individual believer, I will certainly forgive anyone who does evil to me, but governments don't have a right to let criminals off without punishment just because the person they hurt forgives them. The society has a moral and civil obligation to enforce the law and to punish law-breakers. That's one of its main purposes for its existence.

If a society decides that some crimes are worthy of death, the society or community has a right to make that decision, just as the society has a right to make its other laws.

[SivartM]

I thought you would understand. "Killing" == murder. Not self-defense or while obeying the command of God or while in the military obeying lawful orders of one's superiors. See Numbers 35: 9ff; Deut. 19; Joshua 20.

[SivartM]

I believe there are some crimes for which death is the only just and appropriate punishment.

[John317]

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John317:

If a society decides that some crimes are worthy of death, the society or community has a right to make that decision.

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SivartM: What? I thought that culture and society weren't supposed to determine right and wrong. Isn't that what you said to refute women's ordination?

Any society must make laws, which define what is right and wrong in that society. There's no escapting this.

But no society has a God-given right to determine the beliefs and practices of the church. A government sometimes does this by force, as in Nazi Germany and the USSR and communist China, but it's not morally right for them to do it, just as it is not morally right for governments to make slaves of its citizens, although many have done it.

You may need to return to the discussion and reread the posts, because no one ever said that the society cannot make its own laws.

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SivartM: If a society decides that wrong is right it does not make it right.

If a society makes laws that are opposed to God's laws, then of course the believer must obey God's laws and disobey the laws of the society. This is elementary.

[Chronicle]

Will God be unhappy if a murderer is shown grace or given a sentence that does not take his/her life ?

[Gordon1]

It's disappointing to read that some or many here still believe that 9/11 was an act pulled off by Muslims from caves with Cessna training.

There is ample empirical and circumstantial evidence to show this cannot be so. Most pointedly, at 5:21 PM on the same day (Sept 11, 2001) World Trade Center Building 7 collapsed to the ground in 6.5 seconds. (Almost free fall) 47 stories which were NOT hit by an airplane, yet fell in the same symmetrical fashion as did the Twin Towers just hours earlier. All three buildings collapsed in the same way. Except with Building 7, the firefighters knew it was coming down and were ordered out. Then the order was given to "pull it."

But this third tower (WTC 7) was across the street, in a different block from the WTC complex, an entire football field (110 yds) from the closest Twin Tower. The fall of WTC Building 7 was never mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report.

If a 47 story office building collapsed in your city, would there not be an enquiry? Controlled demolition took down all three buildings.

Does it matter who took down the 3 towers? Of course, because targetting "Muslims" or Osama is a pretext for war, sending thousands of young men and women to their graves or permanent disability. (And often a shattered life when shunned by the Veterans Administration) Meanwhile entire countries are destroyed, even precious Iraq where God may have have placed the original Garden. And civilian populations decimated or worse.

Cui bono? Who benefits from war? Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon. All refining their tools to eliminate seventh-day worshippers - soon to be labelled 'terrorists'.

Many Western troops realize these are illegal wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. Among the bravest are those who refuse to fight. They deserve our support and prayers, usually facing court martial for an act of defiance sanctioned both by the American Constitution and the law of God.

[SivartM]

Hey Gordon... you're a bit late with the conspiracy theories.

But I agree with the part about this not being a good war and all.

[Gordon1]

Hey Gordon... you're a bit late with the conspiracy theories.

Hi Sivart - you highlight an irony amongst Adventists - As a people (historically) we've spent millions or billions trying to convince our neighbour and the world of the most incredible conspiracy of time & eternity - which will affect the salvation of billions.

Imagine that Satan will actually impersonate the Christ of God and almost the entire world will be deceived into receiving the mark of the beast (!) We teach & believe this by faith alone, with only the signs of the times as evidence.

We expect others to believe this, yet can't unravel a few broken buildings and the most obvious and repeated human artifice - contrived patriotism and calls to war.

But don't miss the point Sivart - why are these wars 'not good and all' (illegal)? - Because there is no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq or Afghanistan. Both countries have been invaded without just cause - and so Muslims become fair game based on media gut-reaction and govt. propaganda. Muslims and 'terrorists' are the perfect state enemies - the 'threat' will never disappear and so the security industry stays well-oiled until the time of persecution.

[Guest]

The regime in power now is going out of it's way not to call any muslim a terrorist. In fact they have even removed the phrase "muslim extremist" from all government language. When the muslim extremist (terrorist) killed all those people at the military base, they tried to say: "Oh this was just an isolated incident. Not muslim extremism."

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Because there is no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Since when have you been privy to confidential evidence from the United States national security offices (i.e., FBI, CIA) given to the President of the US?

[Chronicle]

Countries with its borders are man made and man has also invented the means(war) to protect these countries they created. God does not condone war but he does use man made devices to achieve His own plan. That does not mean he approves of the methods used. Less greed less war. The war on "terror" was just an excuse to gain world domination and control of resource. Ghandi came a lot closer to what Jesus was talking about.