What does this mean?

[Woody]

Quote:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way.: They place themselves beyond His protection... He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

[Guest]

It means that when you go to the Lil' General store, and steal a piece of candy, or a bottle of wine. If the LORD withdraws his spirit from you, then you're on your own. You may come out and there just happen to be a cop sitting there in his car, and the lady comes running out behind you screaming: STOP!! THIEF!! STOP!! STOP!!

It has nothing to do with how the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time, like some would have you believe. Context is everything.

[karl]

It means that when you go to the Lil' General store, and steal a piece of candy, or a bottle of wine. If the LORD withdraws his spirit from you, then you're on your own. You may come out and there just happen to be a cop sitting there in his car, and the lady comes running out behind you screaming: STOP!! THIEF!! STOP!! STOP!!

It has nothing to do with how the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time, like some would have you believe. Context is everything.

The cop sitting there and busting you is a blessing. Getting away with breaking God's law is a curse. It hardens you.

The brazenness with which people take money from their neighbors (via the government) is a case in point. They've gotten away with it for so long, they actually believe they are entitled to it. A friend of mine works at the post office and has to deal with some pretty ugly people if their welfare or disability checks are a day late. "Hey, where's my paycheck?" Some of them threaten him, as if he had any control over it.

It gets ugly.

[Guest]

Amazing.

[karl]

Quote:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way.: They place themselves beyond His protection... He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

[Musicman1228]

If God found it necessary under His Law to execute His own Son as a penalty for our disobedience then why would anyone think that He would not execute people under His Law who willingly retain the sin for which He executed His own Son? I don't get it when people say that God would use Satan to accomplish the task for which God Himself is responsible. Sin will be eradicated from the universe. Any being that has decided to keep sin inside them having been given ample opportunity to get rid of it will be left in sin at the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. When God destroys sin as the final act love (as given in the prophecies) those with sin still in them will be destroyed along with their sin.

[Guest]

Sin will be eradicated from the universe. Any being that has decided to keep sin inside them having been given ample opportunity to get rid of it will be left in sin ....... When God destroys sin as the final act love (as given in the prophecies) those with sin still in them will be destroyed along with their sin.

Amen Musicman!

Mark this day on your calendar.

[Archie777]

"God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. {LDE 242.3}

So, the question is - Since there are times when God uses evil men and evil angels as instruments to punish and destroy sinners, who is actually responsible for their punishment and destruction?

It is right or accurate to say evil men and evil angels are guilty and God is innocent? Are they any more accountable than holy men and holy angels when they obey God's command to punish and destroy sinners? Was Moses, for example, guilty of sinning when he obeyed God and stoned sinners to death?

[Robert]

If God found it necessary under His Law to execute His own Son as a penalty for our disobedience then why would anyone think that He would not execute people under His Law who willingly retain the sin for which He executed His own Son?

1] First of all you can't transfer guilt. The law demands that the sinner dies. Jesus was never a sinner, therefore His death instead of yours is unethical. You need to study the gospel.

2] God didn't execute Jesus. Jesus was certainly not forced to die. In fact Jesus never died. Even EGW states, "Deity did not sink and die...humanity died." Jesus took us into Himself at the incarnation. I've got loads of quotes from EGW to prove it...loads!

3] God abandoned Christ, who had become sin as the son of man. When God abandoned Christ trouble came Christ's way, but not from God.

[Archie777]

1] First of all you can't transfer guilt. The law demands that the sinner dies. Jesus was never a sinner, therefore His death instead of yours is unethical.

[Robert]

"In dying upon the cross, He transferred the guilt from the person of the transgressor to that of the divine Substitute through faith in Him as his personal Redeemer." {TDG 236.2} Does this insight seem unethical to you?

Not if you understand what she means! Here:

"Deity did not die. Humanity died" [5BC 1113, EGW]

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity,is the work of redemption." [7BC 927, EGW]

"You also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ" [Paul]

"Our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with...." [Paul]

"One died for all, and therefore all died" [Paul]

The death of Christ as the Son of Man was a corporate death. Your life from Adam was assumed at the incarnation and therefore it died in the body of Christ. By doing so God legally qualified Christ to be our Savior. The law has been legally and ethically answered because YOU DIED in the humanity of Christ.

[Archie777]

The death of Christ as the Son of Man was a corporate death. Your life from Adam was assumed at the incarnation and therefore it died in the body of Christ. By doing so God legally qualified Christ to be our Savior. The law has been legally and ethically answered because YOU DIED in the humanity of Christ.

Amen! By living and dying the perfect life and death Jesus earned the legal right to pardon and save the penitent and to punish and destroy the impenitent.

I didn't understand your response to the following quote: "In dying upon the cross, He transferred the guilt from the person of the transgressor to that of the divine Substitute through faith in Him as his personal Redeemer." {TDG 236.2} Do you agree Jesus transferred the sin and guilt of the world to Himself?

[Guest]

Robert what you are teaching is a basic babylonian doctrine that denies the power of God to do for the sinner what He has said He will do. Which is: give the power to overcome. Grace is not just forgiveness, but the power to gain the victory over sin.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Is asking forgiveness the same as overcoming? Not at all.

Rev 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever.

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jn 3:8,9 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

[Robert]

Robert what you are teaching is a basic babylonian doctrine that denies the power of God to do for the sinner what He has said He will do. Which is: give the power to overcome.

Okay, so back to name calling/labeling? All this does is gets the flesh going....You'll start, and I'll go off....Let's just take a deep breath....Just say you disagree....I'm going to try a different approach...how about you?

[Guest]

I didn't call you any names, I only identified a doctrine. I'm only trying to help. If I can't help I usually move on.

[Musicman1228]

Passover and Atonement are NOT the same thing. Jesus Christ died as the Passover lamb, innocent of sin, as the PURCHASE PRICE for the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world-look it up). The Atonement sacrifice that occurred once a year was made to pay the penalty of the Kingdom of Heaven for the sin of disobedience. This Lamb also had no spot or blemish (no sin either in or on it), because only a sinless sacrifice will qualify as payment of the death penalty. In neither of these does the sacrificial Lamb kill itself.

Neither Jesus Christ in the NT or the Temple service described in the OT make a distinction between a physical death and a spirit death. The body and the spirit make a living soul. When the body dies the spirit leaves and the soul is no more.

To say that Jesus died only in the flesh is to confirm the lie that when you die your soul goes to Heaven as a consciousness.

Jesus did not die a natural death as either the Passover or as the Atonement. By Law a penalty of death is a sentence that is required and the person who is sentenced does not carry out that sentence themselves. Going willingly to your death is not the same thing as committing suicide to carry out that sentence.

If A = B, and B = C, then A =C.

Satan has no power over God, Jesus Christ is God. Therefore Satan cannot possibly under any circumstances kill Jesus. A natural death does not pay the penalty. Only an execution under Law can pay the death penalty. Natural death is a consequence of sin and not a penalty for disobedience. Jesus as God could not die a natural death as a consequence of sin, because there was NO sin in Him. Since Jesus could not be killed by Satan, and since Jesus Christ by law had to be sinless in order to pay the penalty sin could not kill Jesus Christ. (Jesus did not bear the weight of our sin, neither did that weight have anything to do with His death). Therefore, the ONLY being that had the authority and power to cause the death of Jesus Christ was God the Father. To say otherwise is to deny both the power of the Law and the power of God to fulfill the Law. Fulfilling the Law does not put aside the Law. The Law still exists even when all of the requirements of the Law are met.

[Guest]

Quote:

Jesus Christ died as the Passover lamb, innocent of sin, as the PURCHASE PRICE for the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world-look it up).

As usual, you make a statement. I show three or four texts that prove just the opposite of what you said. Yet you never seem to even get a sense, that something might be wrong with your paradigm. It's truly amazing.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Robert]

I didn't call you any names, I only identified a doctrine.

"Robert what you are teaching is a basic babylonian doctrine"

No, you are labeling me when you say I teach a "babylonian doctrine". I gave you the gospel.....That's not Babylon.

Let's study what that phrase means:

Click here and read

[Archie777]

Robert, would you mind addressing the question posed in 343978?

[Archie777]

Therefore, the ONLY being that had the authority and power to cause the death of Jesus Christ was God the Father. To say otherwise is to deny both the power of the Law and the power of God to fulfill the Law.

1. In what sense do you believe Jesus died? 2. Did His humanity die? 3. Did His divinity die? 4. Did He die the first death? 5. Did He die the second death? 6. What purpose did His death serve? 7. Did He pay our sin debt of death?

[oldsailor29]

Passover and Atonement are NOT the same thing. Jesus Christ died as the Passover lamb, innocent of sin, as the PURCHASE PRICE for the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world-look it up). The Atonement sacrifice that occurred once a year was made to pay the penalty of the Kingdom of Heaven for the sin of disobedience. This Lamb also had no spot or blemish (no sin either in or on it), because only a sinless sacrifice will qualify as payment of the death penalty. In neither of these does the sacrificial Lamb kill itself.

Neither Jesus Christ in the NT or the Temple service described in the OT make a distinction between a physical death and a spirit death. The body and the spirit make a living soul. When the body dies the spirit leaves and the soul is no more.

To say that Jesus died only in the flesh is to confirm the lie that when you die your soul goes to Heaven as a consciousness.

Jesus did not die a natural death as either the Passover or as the Atonement. By Law a penalty of death is a sentence that is required and the person who is sentenced does not carry out that sentence themselves. Going willingly to your death is not the same thing as committing suicide to carry out that sentence.

If A = B, and B = C, then A =C.

Satan has no power over God, Jesus Christ is God. Therefore Satan cannot possibly under any circumstances kill Jesus. A natural death does not pay the penalty. Only an execution under Law can pay the death penalty. Natural death is a consequence of sin and not a penalty for disobedience. Jesus as God could not die a natural death as a consequence of sin, because there was NO sin in Him. Since Jesus could not be killed by Satan, and since Jesus Christ by law had to be sinless in order to pay the penalty sin could not kill Jesus Christ. (Jesus did not bear the weight of our sin, neither did that weight have anything to do with His death). Therefore, the ONLY being that had the authority and power to cause the death of Jesus Christ was God the Father. To say otherwise is to deny both the power of the Law and the power of God to fulfill the Law. Fulfilling the Law does not put aside the Law. The Law still exists even when all of the requirements of the Law are met.

I think it is the blood of the passover sacrifice which atones for or covers our sins. I think when we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we are partaking of His atonement. I think eating His flesh means reading His teachings, and drinking His blood means following Him and His teachings. So I conclude that reading and following Him and His teachings allows us to be covered by His righteousness.

[Musicman1228]

Archie777,

All good questions.

Immortality was not part of the Creation event; all human beings were created mortal, just as were all of the other animals. The Tree of Life would not have been needed in the Garden of Eden had Adam and Eve been immortal. Therefore, any payment for death by the Lamb would not have been for the natural/first death. The penalty that needed to be paid was for the second or permanent death.

Therefore Jesus died to pay the penalty for the second death.

The 'world' as spoken of in John 3:16 must be defined by what preceded this verse. In John 3 Jesus speaks clearly that to be saved one must be IN the Kingdom of Heaven, so the 'world' in John 3:16 must needs be looked at in those terms. The vast multitude in Rev.7 comes from 'every kindred, tongue and people", i.e. out of the world, Yet once they come out of the world where do they go to have eternal life? They must be INSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven, just as Jesus told Nicodemus.

The Passover Lamb purchased the Kingdom of Heaven out of the Kingdom of the world. Israel was IN Egypt. Egypt was the kingdom of the world. Israel was to become the Kingdom of Heaven. Many people other than the children of Israel came out of Egypt with Israel, this was the mixed multitude. But in order for this to happen they had to do EXACTLY the same thing as did Israel; put the blood of the Passover Lamb on the door posts and lintel. It was at this point that those who were not Israelites became Israelites.

Jesus is God in human form. Before His birth as a human Jesus was God in the form of the Archangel, Michael. In both forms He is still God. You cannot dissociate form from function. When Jesus was executed He paid the penalty of the second death for those who came into the Kingdom of Heaven from the world. Everyone is responsible to pay their own penalty for their sin, that penalty is to be put to death forever; that is the second death. Those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven have asked Jesus Christ to pay their penalty for them, to die the second death in their stead. This Jesus was more than willing to do. But there is a requirement if Jesus is going to do this for you, and that is you must put yourself in bond-servitude to Him. This is a debt that you could only pay by your own death, forever. If you choose to have Jesus pay this debt for you then you must put yourself in His debt forever. Those that do not do this will die in the second death because they have retained their own sin, from which there is no resurrection.

The reason that Jesus raised Himself from the dead is because when He was put to death for our sins HE HAD NO SIN IN HIM. Therefore, after the required amount of time in the grave (three full days and three full nights) He became alive again.

One final thing: The death of Jesus paid our penalty under the Law, but His doing that does not make a person righteous; the two are separate issues. Righteousness comes through the process of Sanctification (John 17:17). A person can be inside the Kingdom of Heaven and be a sinner. However, a person cannot become a family member of God (take God's name) unless and until they become fully and completely righteous. This can only be accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit leading a person through the process of Sanctification. The example of this is found in Matt.25:1-13 where there are 5 wise and 5 foolish bridesmaids. The five foolish bridesmaids did not become righteous, therefore they were left out of the marriage feast.

[Archie777]

Musicman1228, thank you for addressing my questions. Here they are again:

1. In what sense do you believe Jesus died?

2. Did His humanity die?

3. Did His divinity die?

4. Did He die the first death?

5. Did He die the second death?

6. What purpose did His death serve?

7. Did He pay our sin debt of death?

To be honest, though, I'm not sure how your answer above addresses each of these questions. Would you mind addressing them one at a time? I'm sorry if this is inconvenient. Be as brief as you can. Thank you.

[Musicman1228]

Sorry about that. Here goes.

1. Jesus died the second death from which there is no resurrection. He was completely and unalterably dead, as in no consciousness and no bodily function. He did not go to Heaven to be with His Father. We know this because He told Mary in the garden that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Jesus died in complete righteousness, therefore the grave could not hold Him.

2. & 3. All of Him died, both Human and Divine. If less than this occurred then the Law of God would not have been completely fulfill.

4. The first death is the natural death that happens because human beings were created mortal, and were going to die from their very creation. The Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden to allow the first members of the Kingdom of Heaven access to immortality as long as they obeyed God.

5. Jesus died the Second death, which is the penalty under God's Law for disobedience.

6. & 7. The execution death of Jesus under the Law was to purchase the Kingdom of Heaven from the world, and to pay a penalty that humans could only do themselves by virtue of their own executions. The death of Jesus did not free us from sin, that is a separate issue that is dealt with through the process of Sanctification. This is process that even Jesus Christ Himself went through. When He went through this process He was found worthy, because in Him there was no sin. We must do the same. Jesus paid the penalty for our sin so that our going through the process of Sanctification would actually have an effect. Without His death we as sinful humans could have gone through the process of Sanctification, completed it and become righteous, but we would still have been subject to execution. Without the penalty being paid by one who was wholly righteous and without spot or blemish our righteousness does not matter.

I hope this helps.

[Robert]

Robert, would you mind addressing the question posed in 343978?

"Do you agree Jesus transferred the sin and guilt of the world to Himself?"

Jesus as God took upon Himself our fallen life from Adam. Since Adam's life is ours multiplied we can say, as Paul does, that we died to the law in the body of Christ.