What does this mean?

[Archie777]

Robert, your answer isn't clear to me. I'm not sure what you believe. It sounds like you're saying Jesus took upon Himself our life, our sin, our guilt, and paid our sin debt of death. Is this what you're saying?

Also, is the quote I posted above one of those insights in the SOP you believe is wrong and uninspired?

[Archie777]

Musicman, thank you for answering my questions. Would you say the insights you shared above represent mainstream Adventism, the essence of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs?

[John317]

Quote:

Woody (quoting Ellen White): "I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way.: They place themselves beyond His protection... He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

If we read that it its proper context, we find (as Richard already pointed out) that it's speaking of the judgments that fall on people NOW, at this time, not on the judgments of God that fell long ago or the judgments of God that will fall on the wicked after the 1000 years.

Please compare that quote with the following statements:

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}

[Musicman1228]

Musicman, thank you for answering my questions. Would you say the insights you shared above represent mainstream Adventism, the essence of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs?

My understanding does not mirror the 28 Fundamentals in several ways, but this does not mean that I am not an Adventist - as some on this forum suggest.

Most Christians (SDA or otherwise) believe that the weight of the sins of the world actually killed Jesus on the cross. This I absolutely know is not correct, as per the description above.

Main stream Christianity does not believe in or acknowledge the process of Sanctification as being necessary for salvation, as they believe that salvation comes through grace by faith in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul teaches in his gospel, but this is not what Jesus (Himself) taught to His own disciples.

So while I consider some of the 28 Fundamental beliefs of the SDA church to be valid, where ever there is a disagreement with what Jesus said I must go with Him and not the church.

[Guest]

Jesus Christ died as the Passover lamb, innocent of sin, as the PURCHASE PRICE for the Kingdom of Heaven (not the world-look it up).

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Guest]

Main stream Christianity does not believe in or acknowledge the process of Sanctification as being necessary for salvation, as they believe that salvation comes through grace by faith in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul teaches in his gospel, but this is not what Jesus (Himself) taught to His own disciples.

They both taught that the personal relationship is neccessary:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

How can you know someone without having a relationship?

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

They both taught that salvation is a gift:

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

They both taught that sanctification is neccessary:

Act 26:18 ...that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.

And they both taught that faith is the only way to salvation:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mat 9:2 ...Jesus seeing their faith said unto the paralytic; Son, be of good cheer; your sins be forgiven you.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jesus marveled at those who did have faith, but you say we don't need it.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Jesus also supplies all of his people with grace:

Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

[karl]

Main stream Christianity does not believe in or acknowledge the process of Sanctification as being necessary for salvation, as they believe that salvation comes through grace by faith in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul teaches in his gospel, but this is not what Jesus (Himself) taught to His own disciples.

This disconnect has always baffled me. The process of sanctification "comes through grace by faith in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

Grace is the power to overcome sin. With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

[Musicman1228]

There are two opposing forces in the world, two kingdoms, as-it-were.

There are two kingdoms in this world; the kingdom of the world which belongs lock-stock-and barrel to Satan, and the Kingdom of Heaven which is IN the world but not OF the world.

No one that is in the 'kingdom of the world' will be saved, period. You are in the kingdom of the world if you continue sinning.

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. John 8:19.

I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. John 17:14-16.

The kingdom of the world specializes in sin, because the ruler of the kingdom of the world IS the author of sin, that is, Satan.

The Kingdom of Heaven specializes in righteousness, because the King of the Kingdom of Heaven is righteous.

You cannot be in both places at the same time.

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. Matt.6:24.

Jesus came to show people how to go from the kingdom of the world to the Kingdom of Heaven. When Jesus came the first time Israel was (then) the Kingdom of Heaven.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matt.15-24.

The reason Jesus said this was that the purpose for which God placed the Children of Israel into His Kingdom at Sinai was to bring the world (those in the kingdom of the world) into the Kingdom of Heaven. This is because Jesus did not come to save the kingdom of darkness but to bring the people of the world into the light, which is the Kingdom of Heaven.

The systems of the feasts of Israel was to point the Kingdom of Heaven toward righteousness. This is the whole purpose of having a Kingdom of Heaven on earth. This is why God put Adam and Eve in the Garden, to separate them from the world wherein was only evil. God uses His Kingdom on but not of the world to show the people of the world what they must become to gain righteousness. Passover is when God purchased the first born of the world to be the first fruits for His Kingdom. The Day of Atonement was for the purpose of cleansing the Altar of Incense, removing the FORGIVEN SINS of the Kingdom of Heaven and placing them back where sin belongs, in the world (that was the purpose of the goat of removal-scapegoat).

Jesus pointed out that abiding in HIS words is what makes a person a disciple of His.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  John 8:31-32.

Believing a lie as if it were the truth IS NOT abiding in the words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin." John 8:34.

It has been said by people who have claimed to be of God that it is not necessary to stop sinning in order to be saved. If you abide in the words of these people you will remain a slave to sin, and thus remain in the kingdom of the world.

God does not force anyone to become a member of His Kingdom if they are opposed to that Kingdom. You prove you do not want to be in the Kingdom of Heaven if you continue in sin after you have been shown your sin.

The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven as given by Jesus Christ is that you must be IN the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved. NO ONE who is of the world (who continues in sin) can ever be saved because the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb and the sacrifice of the 'goat of the Lord' on the day of Atonement do not apply to anyone who is in the world.

[karl]

No one that is in the 'kingdom of the world' will be saved, period. You are in the kingdom of the world if you continue sinning.

The Greek durative tense (which we don't have in our language) tempers what we read there in 1 John 3. It says that true Christians don't practice sin. It is not their intent to sin, nor is it their habit. They may sometimes get tricked or surprised into sin, and they may not yet know what they will know later in terms of resisting the devil.

The translation of 1 John 3 that says Christians don't sin and, in fact, cannot sin has thrown a lot of people a curve.

Here are some balancing passages

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

[Woody]

Quote:

No one that is in the 'kingdom of the world' will be saved, period. You are in the kingdom of the world if you continue sinning.

May I assume that you are not of the kingdom of the world ... and therefore you do not sin.

I on the other hand ... DO sin. Thus may I assume that despite being saved (which I am) ... you consider me to be in the kingdom of the world?

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "

1 John 3:1-2

[Guest]

The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven as given by Jesus Christ is that you must be IN the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved.

You've got it backwards as usual MM. You don't get into the kingdom of heaven and then become righteous. You have to be righteous before you can see the kingdom.

Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

You see how that works? It says that without righteousness, you can never enter the kingdom of heaven. Here's two more that say the same thing.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Now you can ignore what Jesus said if you want to, just like you do on so many other matters. But it won't change the fact that you have it backwards. What's the use of studying God's word, if you're so locked in to your own man made paradigm, that you can't see and understand what's right in front of you?

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, do you see a problem with the verses you gave? As for me, I agree with them as I am sure MM agrees just as with what Jesus told Nicodemus. Not sure where you see any disagreement here. The verses you gave clearly show that one must be as a child (get rid of opinions they have gotten before) become righteous to get into the KOH.

And Karl, yes, I also agree with you too about the intent to sin verses otherwise. Are not we all striving to enter into the KOH? And yes, NONE of us could do this without the help of God, call it grace or whatever. I think the main problem here is that all of us see and hear preachers and teachers in other churches who teaches "grace alone". The Celebration Center now does it and this attitude has caused a big split within the members. It is one thing to teach grace alone and another to understand that NO salvation would be possible with the grace of God.

For without grace our prayers could not be answered and we would probably not even be interested in conversing on a blog such as this. Some big questions that I have not seen answered in these threads are these: Why hasn't Jesus come already if all we need is grace.? In reading the account of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, where is there any grace given by Jesus? And, how come we don't see grace (yes there are two places) in Revelation? Do we need to fully understand Revelation in order for salvation?

BTW Richard, it would be nice not to 'belittle' someone who does not have the same understanding as you do. If we all believed the same thing, would not that be boring and kill the need for this blog?

And BTW, your prayers are still being answered! Thanks!

[Archie777]

Archie: Musicman, thank you for answering my questions. Would you say the insights you shared above represent mainstream Adventism, the essence of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs?

Musicman: My understanding does not mirror the 28 Fundamentals in several ways, but this does not mean that I am not an Adventist - as some on this forum suggest.

Most Christians (SDA or otherwise) believe that the weight of the sins of the world actually killed Jesus on the cross. This I absolutely know is not correct, as per the description above.

Main stream Christianity does not believe in or acknowledge the process of Sanctification as being necessary for salvation, as they believe that salvation comes through grace by faith in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is what Paul teaches in his gospel, but this is not what Jesus (Himself) taught to His own disciples.

So while I consider some of the 28 Fundamental beliefs of the SDA church to be valid, where ever there is a disagreement with what Jesus said I must go with Him and not the church.

Again, thank you for answering my questions. Do you think this version of the gospel must go to all the world before Jesus can return? Is it possible to experience salvation and sanctification while rejecting this version? And, will people be lost if they reject it til the day they die or the day Jesus returns?

[Guest]

BTW Richard, it would be nice not to 'belittle' someone who does not have the same understanding as you do. If we all believed the same thing, would not that be boring and kill the need for this blog?

And BTW, your prayers are still being answered! Thanks!

I'll try to do better Rich. And I'm glad your boy is ok.

[Archie777]

No one that is in the 'kingdom of the world' will be saved, period. You are in the kingdom of the world if you continue sinning.

Amen! People who know the difference between right and wrong and refuse to cease sinning, who refuse to repent, who insist on sinning, who are not planning to give up their pet, darling sins are indeed in the world and in an unsaved state.

However, what about people who neglect to abide in Jesus, who find themselves sinning, and who immediately repent and resume abiding in Jesus - are they in the world, are they lost? Or, do you believe repentance restores the relationship and the status sin severed?

[Musicman1228]

Jesus was sent to earth by His Father to testify to the truth. This would not have been necessary if Truth was already known. When Jesus came to save only the lost sheep of the house of Israel there were those within this Kingdom of Heaven that were sinning innocently, being unaware of their sin, and there were also those who knew exactly what they were doing by sinning with full knowledge of their actions. All were still inside the Kingdom of Heaven.

In the prophecy of the Ten Bridesmaids in Matt. 25 five were foolish and five were wise. All were asleep, all were awakened by the cry at midnight, and ALL WERE IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Matt. 25:1.

This demonstrates that being in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth does not mean that you are not a sinner. You become a member of the Kingdom of Heaven so that you can learn the truth so you can eventually practice the truth. (John 17:17) This is called the process of Sanctification, and the SDA church is the only organized religion today that talks about Sanctification in any form. This is the gospel of the Kingdom of which Jesus speaks in Matt. 24:14. This is another reason why I believe that the SDA church is in fact the Kingdom of Heaven on earth today.

Notice that at the end of the prophecy of the 10 bridesmaids that the five wise go into the marriage feast with the Bridegroom and His bondservants, and the five foolish are left outside in the dark. What is the difference between those two group? The five wise bridesmaids had the extra oil of the Holy Spirit because they had entered the process of Sanctification and completed it prior to going into the marriage feast. These bridesmaids demonstrated that they were willing to humble themselves before God and say that they needed help from the Holy Spirit to be Sanctified. They were able to do this ONLY because they had the power of the Holy Spirit leading them into ALL truth. (John 16:-13)

The five foolish bridesmaids did not enter the process of Sanctification because they did not feel that they needed to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. They did not join the Sanctification process because they felt that 'grace' was sufficient for them, that they would enter the Kingdom on the merits of the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone (His robe of righteousness covering their filthy rags). It is a sad thing to note that they eventually came to understand their error in this (having gone out to buy more oil), but by then it was too late for them as the door to the marriage feast was already shut and was not going to be opened for them. If 'grace' operates the way we have been taught then why didn't the Bridegroom open the door for them when they knocked and say "Come inside to the marriage feast because 'My grace is sufficient for you."

When the five wise bridesmaids entered the marriage feast with the Bridegroom and His attendants they became born again members of the family of God, aka. the Kingdom of God, by being given the privilege of having the name of God on their foreheads. This is the difference between being in the Kingdom of Heaven and being in the Kingdom of God. No one can be born into God's family unless they have no sin in them, just as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have no sin in themselves. The five foolish bridesmaids believed that they had already been born again and felt they had the right to be at the marriage feast just because they made that claim. They found out otherwise. No one that has sin in them can claim they are 'born again'. The five foolish bridesmaids felt that they deserved to be in the marriage feast because they had experienced the power of the 'Holy Spirit' in there lives that taught them that since the Law was laid aside at the cross they were no longer going to be held responsible for keeping that Law. The believed that 'grace covers a multitude of sins.' What they had experience was the power of the false 'Holy Spirit', that had led them to believe this lie as if it was the truth. To their horror they found out that they were wrong in this belief having been thoroughly decieved, and as a result there was much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, as they were left in outer darkness.

It is in teaching this false belief that the SDA church has fallen away from 'their first love' (Rev.2:4). The SDA church needs to return to it's roots and begin again teaching that all who would enter the marriage feast must/needs enter and complete the process of Sanctification, this through the power of the true Holy Spirit. God will not wait forever to eradicate sin from the universe. He has a timetable that is literal and well under way toward completion. It is for this reason that He first gives this message to the Faithful and Wise Bondservant, who then gives it to the F & W servant's fellow servants, who then give it to the five wise bridesmaids, who then take this message to the world during the Great Tribulation. That message is "You must be inside the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved."

[Archie777]

Musicman, your understanding of sanctification and the kingdom of heaven is quite unique. I've never heard it before. Did you come to these conclusions by yourself? Or, did you someone else teach it to you? Do you know anyone else besides yourself who believes as you do?

[Dr. Rich]

Archie777, I understand you are new here and I welcome you. To answer your question, about 16 years ago, there was a group of what I would call "Highly Educated People" w/in Loma Linda at the Calimesa Church who together realized there were problems with the present understanding of prophecy and formed a new Sabbath School class to hear what a nurse had been studying and seeing about this in a new light. This nurse is a son of an Adventist preacher, but never thought that he had any talent for teaching anyone else, but during all this time, those of us who have been studying with the group have been totally amazed at what he and then we have found. It is still a core group, about 12 in all, but many have left the area so we now do our studies on the internet radio so we all can keep up the all of the studies.

Not wanting to dump the apple cart so to speak, but still wanting to show others that we were not just some right wingers with an agenda, we recorded almost every one of our studies which for over ten years were three times a week, and broadcast them for over 2 years. We have outlasted every Sabbath School teacher and many pastors and since I have been warned (here) not to advertise because of the controversial content which could be the straw that breaks the back--or starts the "shaking" in the SDA church, if you want to know more you can read some of the past posts (if they have not been removed) or contact MM personally and ask him.

I would encourage everyone to study for themselves because it is they who have to wear their own armor during the battle. But do it honestly and with an open mind.

[Aliensanctuary]

Because Satan took this world as hostage and demanded a ransom for its return, the Earth's owner sent his son as the ransom negotiator. Since Satan would never play by the rules, he took the owner's son as a hostage, too, then killed him. That was the only ransom demand that he really wanted, anyway. Thus, Jesus became the ransom payment to rescue the world from Satan's power, but only those who believed in him and obeyed his teachings will ultimately be rescued.

This has helped me to understand part of the mission of Jesus Messiah, by looking at the Earth and its people as hostages of Satan.

Dr. Rich,

It might be nice to condense your SS studies into a small book. I listened to one of the radio programs, but people talking on and on about something puts me to sleep, just like the sermons in church do. I rarely attend SS because my mind wanders so much that it ends up being just a waste of time. My ideas about the Kingdom of God are not exactly mainstream SDA, either.

In fact, a web site with just the facts, not long sermons, would be great, if that were possible. After studying the OT prophecies of the Last Days, my opinions about SOPism have changed. SOPism, for some, has become a religion, giving its usually well-meaning practitioners an excuse to spew quotes at their targets.

[Archie777]

Dr. Rich, it sounds like you and MM are part of the 12 Calimesans you mentioned above. That's interesting. I appreciate you sharing the background. Would you say this view is clearly spelled out in Steps to Christ? If not, do you believe this view must go into all the world before Jesus can return? And, do you believe anyone who understands it and then rejects it is in a lost state?

[Woody]

I used to be a Calimesan. But I saw the light. And I have no plans to return.

[Dr. Rich]

I would say that Steps To Christ is a great book with just a few problems and I still pass them out. (BTW-some believe that EGW was not the true author of this book but that she got it from another writer. As for myself-I don't know.) Our class found out that one should first study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, (Matthew and John) in order to know what the real truth is--and then compare this to what ever anyone else says or writes--and then go with what Jesus said (and the OT) IF there is any controversy.

So, no our view is not actually 'spelled out' in this book. Many people have told us to write a book, but we all agreed that we are still only students and are still in the process of learning. When one writes a book as the author of "Wake Up America" did, it tends to make you want to stop seeking truth and market the book. We don't want to end up doing this since we do NOT ask for money, nor do we have any so called 'membership'.

If our view must get to the whole world prior to the end, then God will see a way for this to be done. It's His time table, not ours.

Having said this, we believe that the 1335 actual days found in Dan. 12 is the/a time for learning about the spiritual food the ONE person will be feeding the fellow servants as found in Matthew 24:45. These will probably be the 144k that are sealed prior to the start of the time of trouble. AND--this 1335 day starting period is very close! (Could be as close as May of this year.)

As for Satan taken Jesus as a hostage, that just does not fit the picture for restoring this world to righteousness as found in the bible.

[Dr. Rich]

Woody--please explain the "light" that you saw. sounds interesting.

[Musicman1228]

Anyone that becomes a hostage is being forced into a situation that is against their will. This did not happen with our world. Adam (and to a lesser extent Eve) gave control of the world to Satan, being willingly disobedient to God's command not to eat of the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. To say that our world is hostage to Satan would mean that Satan would have to be forcing the world to comply with him. This is not true. Jesus expressed this best when He said;

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19.

The world is willingly Satan's kingdom. it is a kingdom of darkness the purpose of which is to keep people confused and deceiving them into thinking that darkness is light and light is darkness.

It is for this reason that God must have a Kingdom of Heaven that will know the truth, and will then take the truth to the world to show them where they have been deceived. Satan is not called the 'Great Deceiver' because he is not good at it'. It is my understanding from the study of prophecy and end time events that the SDA church is that Kingdom on earth today. The problem with this Kingdom is that it is sound asleep, and ill prepared to take the truth to the world.

[Woody]

Woody--please explain the "light" that you saw. sounds interesting.

" I saw the light waning away from them. They did not desire to understand the solemn, important truths for this time." EGW CET 166