What does this mean?

[Musicman1228]

I'm not speaking of minor disagreements with theology or doctrine. It is my understanding that EGW did not accept the Sabbath doctrine immediately, that it took some time for her to come over to the idea that the 7th day was the literal Sabbath. We know that she eventually did. I am speaking specifically of her role as the prophet of the church.

Q: Has there ever been a documented case where EGW in vision declared a prophecy or interpretation of prophecy that one of the brethren disagreed with such that they were excommunicated from the church on the strength of her word?

[John317]

Would you pay someone to do work for you while they're stealing from you or tearing you down or teaching totally contrary to what you hired them for? Who would do that?

Suppose I tell you that I believe what you're saying, so you hire me to be your PR man. After a while, I start telling everyone that you're a liar and untrustworthy and that people should pay no attention to you. What do you do-- keeping paying me and patting me on the back? Hmmm?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

Q: Has there ever been a documented case where EGW in vision declared a prophecy or interpretation of prophecy that one of the brethren disagreed with such that they were excommunicated from the church on the strength of her word?

Not in the way it's put here, no. The church has never disfellowshipped people simply because they don't agree with Ellen White. But there have been ministers who've been fired for not believing in her writings or for teaching the church to doubt that she was a true prophet. I fully support that decision.

What's the story behind your paragraph? Please give references.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: Are they teaching that God does not destroy? Never has never will?

Who is "they"? At any rate, what I posted is discussing God's character.

The Gospel is first and foremost about God's character. The enemy desired power, and in order to achieve it, he lied in regards to God's character. This is how he deceived both angels and man. The lie about God enslaves, that He is like us, selfish, petty, not compassionate, etc.; all the ugly things we are.

The truth about God delivers us from the bondage of these lies. The truth about God is that He is like Jesus Christ.

However we, for various reasons (not least of which is our own character) have a disconnect between how we view God and how we view Jesus Christ. In addition to having this disconnect, for some reason we have a blind spot to where we don't even realize that the disconnect exists. While holding this disconnect we steadfastly refuse that we have it.

[Dr. Rich]

Great posts pnatt...! Not wanting their names used, I have very close friends as professors at the seminary (Andrews) who would fully agree with you. They also agree with john317 in that IF they presented evidence proving 'her' teachings to be false, they probably would not be employed any longer. Therefore they simply tolerate them

Now, as for the gospel being about God's character, then would this be the reason for people to be called liberal or conservative? I see God's character as totally just, both lovingly forgiving (long suffering) and firm. I also believe that God's character does not change. As the old TV program called "Father Knows Best", I agree that the Father DOES know best and gave us laws to show us what is best. This law, the ten commandment is the covenant between Him and His 'bride' in that if you refuse to keep it, then He just can't be your God. Like the song says: Trust and obey, for their is no other way!

[Guest]

Who is "they"?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Great posts pnatt...!

Thanks.

Quote:

Not wanting their names used, I have very close friends as professors at the seminary (Andrews) who would fully agree with you. They also agree with john317 in that IF they presented evidence proving 'her' teachings to be false, they probably would not be employed any longer. Therefore they simply tolerate them

Now, as for the gospel being about God's character, then would this be the reason for people to be called liberal or conservative? I see God's character as totally just, both lovingly forgiving (long suffering) and firm. I also believe that God's character does not change. As the old TV program called "Father Knows Best", I agree that the Father DOES know best and gave us laws to show us what is best. This law, the ten commandment is the covenant between Him and His 'bride' in that if you refuse to keep it, then He just can't be your God. Like the song says: Trust and obey, for their is no other way!

The liberal/conservative question is a very interesting one! I suppose it depends upon one's perspective.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Very (few?) professors believe that Christ took our fallen nature. Among these are those who believes that Ellen White taught that Christ took our fallen nature, but they disagree with her. There are others who believe she did not teach that Christ took our fallen nature, so they agree with her (according to their understanding) on this point.

R:Remember now? .......I'll repeat the question:

Were they teaching that God does not destroy? Never has never will?

I'm not understanding why you're asking this question. It seems out of place.

[Overaged]

Quote:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would NOT come DIRECTLY out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way.: They place themselves beyond His protection... He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.1

Placing ourselves beyond God's protection is something that is quite Biblical; and this would be the best way to investigate what Ellen White meant, and weather what she wrote here was/is true.

The Bible says "a man reaps what he sows." While this can have reference to the here and now; it also pertains to this final phase of God's judgments as referred to here by Ellen White.

[Dr. Rich]

Overaged: "Placing ourselves beyond God's protection is something that is quite Biblical; and this would be the best way to investigate what Ellen White meant, and weather what she wrote here was/is true."

Didn't she say that if one went into a theater that their guardian angels would not go in and therefore this would place you beyond God's protection?

[Overaged]

Didn't she say that if one went into a theater that their guardian angels would not go in and therefore this would place you beyond God's protection?

I wish you would give book and page number for comments like this so that we could actually discuss it properly.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Didn't she say that if one went into a theater that their guardian angels would not go in and therefore this would place you beyond God's protection?

Ever hear of presumption? Do you think if I go to a gay bar and I expect God and the angels to protect me from falling and getting into sin, that I'm showing true trust in God-- or am I being presumptuous? Do you think my angel will go into that bar with me? I don't believe so.

It would be different, I think, if I go into that bar for the purpose of giving someone a book about Jesus, and if I am being honest with God and myself about it, ie, there's no other way I could give the book to the individual. But otherwise, I am setting myself up to be purposely tempted.

I'm disobeying God, yet expecting God to fulfill his promises. That's playing games with God, taking Him for some kind of fool. But God is no fool. We're the fools if we do it.

[Overaged]

quote] Dr. Rich: Didn't she say that if one went into a theater that their guardian angels would not go in and therefore this would place you beyond God's protection?/quote]

Ever hear of presumption? Do you think if I go to a gay bar and I expect God and the angels to protect me from falling and getting into sin, that I'm showing true trust in God-- or am I being presumptuous? Do you think my angel will go into that bar with me? I don't believe so.

I understand what you are saying about "the sin of presumption;" and your statement touches on the very reason I had asked Dr Rich for specific book and page number reference for his comment. I don't believe he had the correct context of Mrs White's statement in view when he made the statement about theaters; in fact, if we could see the exact quote he was referring to; it would likely say something quite different than what he was insinuating.

Conversely, this whole idea about God withdrawing His protection from us when we do something wrong makes me wonder. The Bible says that "He will give His angel's charge over thee..." and you have to ask: "How can God actually operate like this most of the time when we slip up or deliberately sin. I have done some awful things - some very dangerous things, yet God has protected me through them all. In fact, Jesus must have employed extra angels to watch over me during certain times of my life!

How does it fit that when we do something "wrong" that God withdraws His protection from us? I would be dead many times over if this was true. But I think I am still alive. I like to tell people I have "nine lives" and I am working on #137.

I think some people have a lot of questions to answer based on the out of context views they have on how God sees us, and how He operates with us.

[pnattmbtc]

A. G. Maxwell had a couple of questions he suggested asking in trying to understand what another has said.

1.What did he/she actually say?

2.What did he/she mean when he/she said what he/she said?

I think these would be good questions to ask here.

[Overaged]

A. G. Maxwell had a couple of questions he suggested asking in trying to understand what another has said.

1.What did he/she actually say?

2.What did he/she mean when he/she said what he/she said?

I think these would be good questions to ask here.

Exactly. Infact, I wil throw out a little hint/example of this. if you note my last post, I quoted some scripture; but I did not give the exact reference. It would be good to use your questions on this quote I gave.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Conversely, this whole idea about God withdrawing His protection from us when we do something wrong makes me wonder.

Clearly this isn't what happens. If God did so, none of us would be around, as God is constantly protecting us from a thousand evils, all of them unseen. What we can say is that if we persistently resist the Holy Spirit, God *may* withdraw His protection from us. The "Destruction of Jerusalem" chapter in "The Great Controversy" has a good explanation of this principle.

[Dr. Rich]

Overaged wrote: "I understand what you are saying about "the sin of presumption;" and your statement touches on the very reason I had asked Dr Rich for specific book and page number reference for his comment. I don't believe he had the correct context of Mrs White's statement in view when he made the statement about theaters; in fact, if we could see the exact quote he was referring to; it would likely say something quite different than what he was insinuating."

Actually, I did not insinuate anything--I ASKED A QUESTION! I was hoping someone would bite on this and they did. I do NOT know if she said this or not--it was probably my mother who might have said she did to keep me from sneaking out to see "Cat On A Hot Tin Roof"!

PS--I snuck out anyway and felt so guilty I threw up!

[Musicman1228]

I just thought I would pass this on, FYI.

Look what came into my inbox this morning at 1:40 AM. I hope this teaches you something about who Doug Bachelor really is. You should see this in living color. Very slick.

Amazing Facts Red Tag Sale!! Inbox X

Reply

Amazing Facts to me

show details 1:40 AM (7 hours ago)

Hello Dennis,

Welcome to spring! Chances are, you've been doing some spring-cleaning to get a fresh start. Well, so has Amazing Facts! And we've found some GREAT CHRISTIAN TOOLS to help recharge your spirit! To help you take advantage of these tools, we're announcing our once-a-year RED-TAG SALE - you can get up to 70% off before June 25 on Christian books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, and more ... like the Amazing Facts Prophecy Bible, now for just $22.95! We also have perfect Father's Day and graduation gifts!

Click here TO VIEW THE ELECTRONIC SALES CATALOG!

You can now also pre-order our latest product — the Prophecy Foundations DVD... a $300 value for only $12.95!

Click on any of the products in the electronic catalog and you will be directed to that product in our store for EASY online purchasing. Best of all, our products have a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee! For more information or to order by phone, call 1-800-538-7275.

[Guest]

MM, don't you have a book for sale?

[Musicman1228]

Richard, how pedantic. Of course I have a book for sale, do you want to buy one? I think I can even get you an author autographed copy. In fact, if you email your address to me at spiritoftruthministry@gmail.com I will send you a complimentary copy.

(I was only pointing out the incongruity of a big SDA church sponsored ministry advertising on the Sabbath, just as a point of interest.)

[Guest]

Pedantic eh? Is that anything like "didactic"? Thank goodness for dictionary.com.

I'm sure Doug Batchelor had nothing to do with sending that out on the Sabbath, before you go running the man down. I've seen you try to do that before. It was probably done by some big advertising firm that didn't get the memo on when not to send things like that out.

Why don't you send him an e-mail (or a phone call) at Amazing Facts and make him aware of it. Also if you do a little research, you will find that even though Doug Batchelor has a church in San Diego, and is an SDA pastor. Amazing Facts is a totally independant ministry. I know I've told you this before, but you seem intent on believing only the things that run around in your own head. (which must make the job of the Holy Spirit very hard, if not impossible) This is from the website:

Amazing Facts is an independent ministry that receives no denominational funding or subsidies. We depend on the generous gifts of like-minded friends to share the gospel of Jesus Christ and His last-day message to the world. You can call us at 916.434.3880

[Musicman1228]

Already did send them an email.

To try to deflect responsibility for this from Doug Bachelor to some nameless advertising firm is the same excuse that was the main defense at Nuremburg, where German soldiers said "I was just following orders" in trying to deflect their responsibility for war crimes. Doug Bachelor should have known what was going to happen with this ad. If he did know and OK'd it he is responsible for sending this ad out on Sabbath. If he did not know then this reflects on his inability to manage his business properly and he should be held accountable for that.

If you told me personally that Amazing Facts was an independent ministry then I missed it. It still uses the name Seventh-day Adventist in it's advertising and promotional material, and it also sells SDA books and materials through it's online store. Because of this it bears responsibility for it's actions in the public arena.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

You still haven't told me whether you want me to send you a book. I promise I won't tell anyone if you do. I really would like your feed back on it, if you do decide to let me send you one.

[Guest]

I just sent the e-mail with my address in it. Now everyone knows. LOL

[Dr. Rich]

Hey MM, I too received an email from them on the sabbath and it was the same thing.

I have tried to get Doug to debate me but he keeps refusing. I know him personally, so I just keep poking him once in a while, hoping a nudge will cause him to answer me.