What does this mean?

[Guest]

Our class found out that one should first study the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses, (Matthew and John) in order to know what the real truth is

Hey Rich, What happened to mark, have you guys thrown him overboard now too? Your Bible is getting smaller and smaller. Maybe you could re-instate one of the other ones, like James, or maybe Peter.

Also, I know you say John is ok, and not inspired by Satan, but every time I quote from first, second, or third John, you guys seem to ignore it. Whats up with that? Was he not inspired in those three books?

[Guest]

It is for this reason that God must have a Kingdom of Heaven that will know the truth, and will then take the truth to the world to show them where they have been deceived. Satan is not called the 'Great Deceiver' because he is not good at it'. It is my understanding from the study of prophecy and end time events that the SDA church is that Kingdom on earth today. The problem with this Kingdom is that it is sound asleep, and ill prepared to take the truth to the world.

I'm confused here MM. Actually (according to you) the SDA church is way more than just asleep. If we have been led for roughly 160 years by a false prophet, like you suggest, then we are utterly decieved, and in the hands of Satan. So how could we be called the kingdom of heaven? And why did God give his people a false prophet?

Did God give his people false prophets in past also, like in the OT?

And how did we ever stumble upon the true Sabbath? I know that is one of the things that Satan hates the most. Did Satan allow God to get a few words in edgewise, when he was telling Ellen White what to write? Because EGW was very instrumental in the SDA church coming to the beliefs we now hold.

I'm just wondering how we ended up with so much truth, with Satan at the helm so to speak. For instance, why did Satan show Ellen White the truth about the state of the dead? I thought that was one that Satan really wanted to keep under wraps. That and the Sabbath.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. {GC 588}

If you ask me, Satan really goofed when he showed her the truth on these two things. I bet he wishes he could do that one over.

If you could help me understand some of these things, maybe I would be more receptive to the rest of your teachings. Like God allowing Satan to use Paul to write most of the New Testament. That's a real head scratcher there. I know you don't claim to know all the truth, but if you could answer these two or three questions I've been asking myself, I would really appreciate it. Thanks MM.

[skyblue888]

The Israelites had Moses and yet Israel was deceived. God sent Ancient Israel prophet after prophet and what did they do with them? They persecuted them and killed them. What did they do with the Messiah?

And we are told that we are repeating their history.

sky

[Guest]

The Israelites had Moses and yet Israel was deceived. God sent Ancient Israel prophet after prophet and what did they do with them? They persecuted them and killed them. What did they do with the Messiah?

And we are told that we are repeating their history.

sky

Yes, but at no time could they blame it on the fact that God had sent them a false prophet. My question was: Does God send false prophets to his people? A simple NO would have been good. You didn't even address the question.

And unless you believe like musicman, that Ellen White was inspired by Satan, the question wasn't really for you, but thanks anyway.

[Archie777]

BTW-some believe that EGW was not the true author of this book but that she got it from another writer. As for myself-I don't know.

You may be happy to learn Ellen herself refers to it as "my book".

"I gave him my books Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and Steps to Christ. {Ev 277.1}

[Archie777]

Dr. Rich, do you believe people who understand your view of the gospel and reject it are in a lost state?

Musicman, would you mind answering the question above?

Woody, when you were a Calimesan did you get the impression the others would have answered yes to the question above?

[Musicman1228]

Archie777,

If you are alive you are not lost, because God is continually striving via the Holy Spirit to bring people to the Truth. If you die believing a lie as if it is the truth, but this has not been made known to you, then God does not hold this against you (this is grace). If you have rejected the truth consciously and die you are lost; 'grace' cannot save you (nothing can). This precludes 'grieving' the Holy Spirit; which I understand to be making the claim that the Holy Spirit has spoken to you directly and that the information given to you is counter to the truth. That is, what you are speaking as truth is a lie and you claim to have received it from the Holy Spirit. You can not call the Holy Spirit a liar and get away with it. That is why a person must be SOOO careful when saying that someone other than Jesus Christ and His words are the truth in fact.

There will come a decision time for all; for the 144,000 and then the 10 bridesmaids the decision is before the Great Trib begins; for the world the decision will be made before the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. Here is the great deception of Satan; that you believe a lie as if it is the truth, so much so that when presented with the truth you believe IT to be a lie. It is Satan's masterful slight of hand that will cause people to see black as white and white as black, and loving the darkness rather than the light.

Because you have kept my commandment to persevere I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth. Rev. 3:10.

[i will answer Richard later, when I have more time]

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, I take Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 to mean that anyone who practices a lie will be in deep trouble--at the time of the end. This would include you and me. The picture I see that God gave us in the seven messages (Rev. 2 and 3) is nothing to sneeze at. When God warns these people to repent, He didn't do it for no good reason. And it could be a fatal mistake for ones soul to believe these 7 messages were for churches in history.

And yes, I know EGW referred STC as 'her' book. But what she said does not necessarily mean it was her idea and her words, it could have meant that, yes, she wrote it, but were it came from is a mystery.

And I would not call the members of the Calimesa Church as having anything to do with "The Revelation of Jesus" class--because most don't even know we exist.

And Richard, as for God giving us a false prophet? Come on, you know better than that! Give me ONE good reason for having a prophet sent by God after Jesus came to this world other than His eyewitnesses? Please, I just need ONE!

Why? Because IF you can find one,(only one) then Jesus failed miserably with His ministry. If anyone thinks that anyone needs anyone else other than Jesus Christ's words and testimony for salvation, then I will pray for that person to come to the understanding of what Jesus said and taught.

It is my opinion that Satan has used many so called prophets and self appointed apostles after Jesus was here in order to cause confusion and division such as we now have. And of course these people had to believe that they were being used by God, so their message had to look like the real thing.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, I forgot to answer you. You wrote "Hey Rich, What happened to mark, have you guys thrown him overboard now too? Your Bible is getting smaller and smaller. Maybe you could re-instate one of the other ones, like James, or maybe Peter."

I suppose you just over looked what I wrote. I said to read them FIRST--and then read the other stuff later. I am sorry I confused you here.

Mark probably wrote for Peter--but I don't know for sure. There is evidence for this.

Even though I like Luke, some things he wrote does not agree with the other 'gospels'. I personally don't think Luke wrote anything that he did not believe, but since he was a follower of Paul and not a Jew, he may have intentionally slanted things toward Paul's gospel.

[Guest]

Rich, Matthew and Mark disagree with each other about how many posessed people came out of the tombs to get healed by Jesus. Mark says it was just one, Mark 5:2, and Matthew says it was two. Matt 8:28

Which one are you going to throw out? Who got it right?

[Dr. Rich]

Ha Ha, nice try--but I can show you MANY more places of differences between Matthew, Mark and John. I shake my head when people attempt to trick someone like this because it might work if that person did not know the real message that Jesus taught and the words that HE spoke.

If you would read 'our' book, you might understand some of this. It is your choice.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Thus, Jesus became the ransom payment to rescue the world from Satan's power, but only those who believed in him and obeyed his teachings will ultimately be rescued.

Quote:

Matt 20:28.

just as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

ransom---1 : a consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity

Seems like "ransom" and "hostage", or "captive", might be connected.

Quote:

Having said this, we believe that the 1335 actual days found in Dan. 12 is the/a time for learning about the spiritual food the ONE person will be feeding the fellow servants as found in Matthew 24:45. These will probably be the 144k that are sealed prior to the start of the time of trouble. AND--this 1335 day starting period is very close! (Could be as close as May of this year.)

Quote:

Dan 12:11, 12.

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

"Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Perhaps those who survive the capture of Jerusalem and the sacking of the Temple are the Remnant, not the SDA church of today. Daily sacrifices imply a functioning Temple, and likely, a Jerusalem much different from the city that exists today.

I suspect that the Israel we are familiar with today must once again be destroyed and its people scattered to the four winds. Somehow, over the ensuing years, the exiles discover the LORD, and filled with his power, and with his help, they return to rebuild the city and the Temple.

The OT does not indicate how many comprise the Remnant at that time. The Remnant may be composed of infants who were born and raised in the fear of the LORD within the Temple/City complex.

[Archie777]

Dr. Rich, thank you for addressing my question. However, it is not clear to me what your answer is. Do you believe people who understand your view of the gospel and reject it are in a lost state?

Musicman, I feel the same way about your response to the question above. Would you mind answering it in a way that leaves no doubt what you believe?

By the way, please do not be afraid to answer the question clearly. I have no secret agenda, no intentions of finding fault. I am merely trying to ascertain what you believe.

[Musicman1228]

Rich, Matthew and Mark disagree with each other about how many posessed people came out of the tombs to get healed by Jesus. Mark says it was just one, Mark 5:2, and Matthew says it was two. Matt 8:28

Which one are you going to throw out? Who got it right?

Not that is matters much since both people had demons, but in every case like this I always fall back on the least common denominator-the eyewitness testimony. In this case that would have to be Matthew.

At the crucifixion there is an account of two criminals being executed along side of Jesus. Luke has one of these men repenting and asking to be with Jesus in paradise. Luke reports Jesus as saying "Today you will be with me in paradise." The accounts of Matthew and Mark have the both criminals cursing Jesus, and there is no mention that one of these criminals asked to be with Jesus in paradise. (John does not mention the criminals in his account).

So which account would you choose, Richard? Both of these accounts cannot be right. How will you decide?

One other thing I would like to point out; Luke's account seems to confirm the belief of Paul that you go directly to Heaven when you die-"Today you will be with me in paradise". This is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the OT on the subject of the saved going directly to heaven when they die. If you eliminate Luke and Paul as an authority on this particular issue then it becomes much simpler to gain the true understanding of this.

[Guest]

Wow. So you believe the prophecies in Daniel about the destruction of Jerusalem are unfulfilled and still in the future?

[Guest]

One other thing I would like to point out; Luke's account seems to confirm the belief of Paul that you go directly to Heaven when you die

Paul didn't believe that. What do you guys do, just sit around and make up stuff to say about Paul? Because most of what you say about him is either not in the Bible at all, or due to some gross misunderstanding, and twisted logic on your part.

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I thought you were going to answer my questions MM. You said you were. I'll post them again so you don't have to go back a page to see them.

[Guest]

It is for this reason that God must have a Kingdom of Heaven that will know the truth, and will then take the truth to the world to show them where they have been deceived. Satan is not called the 'Great Deceiver' because he is not good at it'. It is my understanding from the study of prophecy and end time events that the SDA church is that Kingdom on earth today. The problem with this Kingdom is that it is sound asleep, and ill prepared to take the truth to the world.

I'm confused here MM. Actually (according to you) the SDA church is way more than just asleep. If we have been led for roughly 160 years by a false prophet, like you suggest, then we are utterly decieved, and in the hands of Satan. So how could we be called the kingdom of heaven? And why did God give his people a false prophet?

Did God give his people false prophets in the past also, like in the OT?

And how did we ever stumble upon the true Sabbath? I know that is one of the things that Satan hates the most. Did Satan allow God to get a few words in edgewise, when he was telling Ellen White what to write? Because EGW was very instrumental in the SDA church coming to the beliefs we now hold.

I'm just wondering how we ended up with so much truth, with Satan at the helm so to speak. For instance, why did Satan show Ellen White the truth about the state of the dead? I thought that was one that Satan really wanted to keep under wraps. That and the Sabbath.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. {GC 588}

If you ask me, Satan really goofed when he showed her the truth on these two things. I bet he wishes he could do that one over.

If you could help me understand some of these things, maybe I would be more receptive to the rest of your teachings. Like God allowing Satan to use Paul to write most of the New Testament. That's a real head scratcher there. I know you don't claim to know all the truth, but if you could answer these two or three questions I've been asking myself, I would really appreciate it. Thanks MM.

[Musicman1228]

Richard, Richard,

You are trying sooo hard to make me look incompetent and unstudied. 'Me thinks you protest too much'.

Richard said, "Wow. So you believe the prophecies in Daniel about the destruction of Jerusalem are unfulfilled and still in the future?"

Of course not, and again you know I never said that. The prophecies of the 490 years and the 2300 years are in the past, as I have stated many times. You say these things about me to deliberately obfuscate the facts of what I have actually said.

I also have never said that the SDA church (my church) did not have truth; we have a lot of truth, just not all of it. It is my impression that you don't believe there is anything left to learn, and anything that will be learned will never disagree with what has come before. Is this not so?

My understanding is that some of what we have believed to be true is actually a deliberate lie put in place by Satan to get the servants of God to believe a lie as if it were the truth. The Sabbath is not one of these. But Satan has arranged for the day of rest and worship to be transferred to Sunday, and our church goes right along with how this was accomplished by agreeing that Jesus Christ was resurrected on Sunday morning. This accomplished in one fell swoop what Satan had been trying for centuries to do, that is change the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday. In this he was successful. Most Christians celebrate the resurrected Christ on Sunday. This is a lie. Jesus was actually resurrected just before sunset on Sabbath. I would be happy to explain this to you, should you desire.

What this would do, and is something the SDA church should embrace, is that God confirmed the day or rest and worship within the resurrection of Jesus, He did not change it.

You will probably disagree vehemently with me on this, but if this is true would not this promote the 7th day Sabbath as the day God set aside. We claim that the Sabbath is the day of worship, but then we go right along with the rest of the Christian church in saying that the resurrection occurred on Sunday. We as a church will be held accountable for this deplorable situation unless we correct it soon.

[Guest]

Richard, Richard,

You are trying sooo hard to make me look incompetent and unstudied. 'Me thinks you protest too much'.

Richard said, "Wow. So you believe the prophecies in Daniel about the destruction of Jerusalem are unfulfilled and still in the future?"

Of course not, and again you know I never said that. The prophecies of the 490 years and the 2300 years are in the past, as I have stated many times. You say these things about me to deliberately obfuscate the facts of what I have actually said.

I wasn't talking to you when I said that musicman. If you look at the name in the little margin above my post, you'll see that it says: Aliensanctuary

I wasn't trying to make you look incompetant and unstudied. You do a pretty good job of that on your own.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, If people actually understood "my view", they would see that it really is not my view, but the same thing that Jesus said and taught. Having said this, I suppose you mean the view that our group has found. Having been with this group for a long time, I have seen people come and go and those who go usually have their own agenda and have not taken the study serious.

I don't have ALL of the information myself yet, so it is hard to answer your question at this time to your liking. What I believe and share with others is only my educated belief.

I do know that Jesus Christ was and is real and that He came to bring this truth to the world, but only those who 'hear' His voice (meaning that they are truth seekers) will understand it. No one on this forum has actually read or heard my full 'view', but only bits and pieces.

I believe that God created the world in seven days many thousands of years before Adam. Lucifer was to be the head watcher and teach the nations/races about the true God, but usurped God by making everyone on the earth believe that he was their god. Therefore, God the Creator made Adam/Eve to testify to the rest of the world who the true God was because those outside of the garden could see that their God was keeping them healthy and they did not have to die since they got to eat from the tree of life.

I believe that Satan had to get to them asap and did. There is MUCH more here then I can write, but God then had a whole nation to be witnesses to the truth in order to bring righteousness to the whole world. I believe Satan got to them, not once, but twice. Jesus was Michael and came as a human but did not have any DNA from Mary.

He came to do what Adam and Israel failed to do. He did this and gave us this information by the way of His eyewitnesses. I believe everything in Revelation is true and will happen, but has not yet happened except for the few in the KOH putting those who called themselves apostles and found them to be false.

I believe that every message of the seven in Rev. 2 and 3 are warnings to the present SDA church ONLY.

I believe that Israel/Jews is the wounded head that gets healed. All of the religions today are evil. The KOH or SDA church is the ONLY group who profess to keep the ten commandments.

NOW, if others see this they will have a beautiful understanding of everything needed for salvation. That is my answer.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Wow. So you believe the prophecies in Daniel about the destruction of Jerusalem are unfulfilled and still in the future?

Yes Richard, I do. It is a mystery to me why this is not obvious to others. For example, Matt 24 is about the Last Days and the cataclysmic events just before Judgment Day, not what occurred in 70 AD.

Dan and Rev are all about these two future time periods. The Four Beasts will be worldwide powers, not the little stone-age or iron-age kingdoms of the past. It's true, there are parallels, but the first occurrence is like a shadow of the future occurrence.

The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and the nation in 70 AD was just a shadow of the future destruction of Israel. The first partition of Israel by tribes was a shadow of the ultimate partition in the future Kingdom. The earthly Tabernacle and Temples were a shadow of the real Temple in the future Kingdom. The first appearance of Messiah was just a shadow of the second appearance. Baptism this side of the Kingdom is just a shadow of the real wash-up in the River of Life.

The Messengers from the LORD weren't lying when they told Daniel that certain future events would occur in periods of days, or weeks. To invent something like a prophetic day really means a year only causes confusion and the need to create an 1844 to mark the end of a mistake. Of course, we are unable to prove or disprove a time prediction where nothing visible occurs.

Incidentally, the following verse indicates that David, the LORD's Anointed, will be king of Israel in the Last Days.

Quote:

Hosea 3:5

Then the people of Israel shall turn back

and seek the LORD, their God,

and David, their king;

They shall come trembling to the LORD

and to his bounty, in the last days.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: musicman

Richard, Richard,

You are trying sooo hard to make me look incompetent and unstudied. 'Me thinks you protest too much'.

Richard said, "Wow. So you believe the prophecies in Daniel about the destruction of Jerusalem are unfulfilled and still in the future?"

Of course not, and again you know I never said that. The prophecies of the 490 years and the 2300 years are in the past, as I have stated many times. You say these things about me to deliberately obfuscate the facts of what I have actually said.

I wasn't talking to you when I said that musicman. If you look at the name in the little margin above my post, you'll see that it says: Aliensanctuary

I wasn't trying to make you look incompetant and unstudied. You do a pretty good job of that on your own.

My, My. Aren't we getting a little bit testy, Richard? Should I take it that this is your expression of Christ likeness? Oh, wait. I suppose you class me with the Pharisees whom Jesus redounded and castigated. Why don't you use that as an excuse. Who knows maybe someone will believe you.

[Guest]

My, My. Aren't we getting a little bit testy, Richard? Should I take it that this is your expression of Christ likeness? Oh, wait. I suppose you class me with the Pharisees whom Jesus redounded and castigated. Why don't you use that as an excuse. Who knows maybe someone will believe you.

I was just explaining to my friend in Canada, how us Holbrooks show love. Basically if I'm speaking to you, then that means I love you. In fact I can exude huge amounts of love, with nothing more than a simple grunt.

[Guest]

The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and the nation in 70 AD was just a shadow of the future destruction of Israel. The first partition of Israel by tribes was a shadow of the ultimate partition in the future Kingdom. The earthly Tabernacle and Temples were a shadow of the real Temple in the future Kingdom. The first appearance of Messiah was just a shadow of the second appearance. Baptism this side of the Kingdom is just a shadow of the real wash-up in the River of Life.

Hey Ali, I thought you belived EGW, because I've seen you quote her before.

All the predictions given by Christ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem were fulfilled to the letter. The Jews experienced the truth of His words of warning: {GC 29}

So Christ's disciples were given warning of the destruction of Jerusalem. Those who watched for the sign of the coming ruin, and fled from the city, escaped the destruction. So now we are given warning of Christ's second coming and of the destruction to fall upon the world. Those who heed the warning will be saved. {DA 634.1}

Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. {DA 627}

[Archie777]

A: Do you believe people who understand your view of the gospel and reject it are in a lost state?

R: Archie, If people actually understood "my view", they would see that it really is not my view, but the same thing that Jesus said and taught. . . . What I believe and share with others is only my educated belief.