What does this mean?

[Guest]

Lucifer was to be the head watcher and teach the nations/races about the true God, but usurped God by making everyone on the earth believe that he was their god. Therefore, God the Creator made Adam/Eve to testify to the rest of the world who the true God was because those outside of the garden could see that their God was keeping them healthy and they did not have to die since they got to eat from the tree of life.

Where can I find any of this in the Bible?

[Dr. Rich]

Try the Septuagint. The thing this: What I wrote was what I believe since that was what the question was about. I have a brain and can put two plus two together just like you can. Creation is a theory just as much as what I wrote. You and I were not there. You find that my theory would agree both with the bible and with science. I would like to see anyone argue with it with much success. Yes, I know you will, but only with verses from people who were not eyewitnesses of the ministry of Jesus.

Oh, I don't have the text right now, but in the Old Testament God tells us that Satan fell from Heaven and deceived the whole world. ALL of the PEOPLE! This could NOT mean during the flood since Noah had not been deceived. And, it could not have been since the flood, because there has always been someone who has not been deceived. The 2+2 (evidence) would then show that the total deception must have been prior to Adam.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, yes, I could swear an oath for its truth if I were on the stand, but only upon my present understanding of truth. Since I have had to change my belief/opinion many times in order to go with the preponderance of the evidence provided, I am not like EGW but am flexible to new truth or understanding.

But know one thing, I used to be right there with you and fought with anything that would upset this. I keep asking for God to show me the truth, no matter what it is and to open my eyes to everything that that Holy Spirit wants me to know and understand. As to this, God has never directly talked to me but Satan has attempted to many times.

Being upset with not finding grace in Matthew 25 and in Revelation, I kept praying for a complete understanding on this and was given a dream that totally shook me up--but made complete sense in how God's grace is used.

Archie, you did not tell me IF you thought that another prophet or apostle was needed to understand salvation after Jesus left. Since you admitted to be a follower of EGW, can you please show me why she was needed? Did not they have the same bible I do and you do? Is not this sufficient? Was Christ's ministry a failure?

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. {DA 627}

Quote:

Zech 14

The eschatological battle; the splendor of Jerusalem

1. Look, the Day of Yahweh is coming, when the spoils taken from you will be shared out among you.

2. For I shall gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, the women ravished. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be ejected from the city.

3. Then Yahweh will sally out and fight those nations as once he fought on the day of battle.

4. When that day comes, his feet will rest on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley; half the Mount will recede northwards, the other half southwards.

5. The valley between the hills will be filled in... And Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

10. The entire country will be transformed into plain...but Jerusalem will stand high in her place and be full of people...

11. People will make their homes there. The curse of destruction will be lifted; Jerusalem will be safe to live in.

Quote:

Matt 24:

15 So when you see the appalling abomination, of which the prophet Daniel spoke, set up in the holy place...

16. then those in Judaea must escape to the mountains;

The preceding verses in Zech 14 give the reason why the people of Israel must flee to the mountains when the Abomination of Desolation appears in the Holy Place...because a great leveling will occur in Israel which fills in the valleys to make a great plain. Jerusalem, as indicated, remains elevated either on a plateau or hovers in the air above the plain.

I don't believe Jesus, in Matt 24, was referring at all to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. He was directing everyone's attention to the events that would occur during the Last Days, and what they should expect to happen to them upon awakening from the Resurrection at that time. It's during this time period that the Three Angel's Messages are given to the entire world and everyone has an equal chance to accept or reject them, sealing their eternal fate.

It is especially important during the Last Days that we must forgive the wrongs done to us and thus, be forgiven of the wrongs we have committed. This is the time to clear our life records and make things right if we wish to be members of the Kingdom of the Stars. The Great Judgment Day of YHVH is coming where all men must stand trial. If our sins have already been deleted from the books, we will be safe. If not, we will be declared guilty, sentenced, then punished according to the evidence we submitted in our life record.

[pnattmbtc]

Archie, you did not tell me IF you thought that another prophet or apostle was needed to understand salvation after Jesus left. Since you admitted to be a follower of EGW, can you please show me why she was needed? Did not they have the same bible I do and you do? Is not this sufficient?

For a couple thousand years, nobody had a Bible. One could use the same argument that you are making that NO prophet was needed, at least none was needed to write things down, if we're going to use the logic that if X was sufficient for some person who at a certain time, then nobody after that person needs more than X.

[Guest]

Ali, I agree that Matthew 24 is a prophecy for the final generation. But to say that He wasn't referring to the destruction of Jerusalem at all, would be wrong. Ellen White says that He mingled the two events together.

All the predictions given by Christ concerning the destruction of Jerusalem were fulfilled to the letter. The Jews experienced the truth of His words of warning: {GC 29}

Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out the meaning for themselves. {DA 627}

[pnattmbtc]

Are you certain every aspect of this view of the gospel is the "same thing Jesus said and taught"? Or, do you suspect it is possible certain aspects of your understanding of it might be wrong? If so, which aspects of it are you uncertain is without a doubt "the same thing Jesus said and taught"?

I'm interested as to why you asked this.

[Musicman1228]

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!   You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;   I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ Isa.14:12-14. (ESV)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isa.14:12-14. (ASV)

2522 chalash khaw-lash' a primitive root; to prostrate; by implication, to overthrow, decay:--discomfit, waste away, weaken.

1471 gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people. see HEBREW for 01465

[Archie777]

Archie, you did not tell me IF you thought that another prophet or apostle was needed to understand salvation after Jesus left. Since you admitted to be a follower of EGW, can you please show me why she was needed? Did not they have the same bible I do and you do? Is not this sufficient? Was Christ's ministry a failure?

What do you think Jesus meant when He said:

John

16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

From what I've read and studied about it, it seems to clear to me Jesus was unable to share everything He wanted to with the disciples while He was here in the flesh. To compensate for this deficit, He sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide His church into all truth. I believe the Holy Spirit worked through the gift and spirit of prophecy to accomplish His commission. It seems very clear to me that He inspired the apostles to record "all truth". Then came the Dark Ages. Many truths were either lost or perverted.

I believe the Holy Spirit worked through Ellen White to repair and restore the breach and raise up the Remnant Church to proclaim the 3AMs to ready the world for the return of Jesus. Yes, the Church needed the inspired guidance of the Holy Spirit to recover the truths lost or perverted during the Dark Ages. The Church could not have done it on her own without the aid of the Holy Spirit. God chose Ellen White to restore to the Church "all truth", "all things whatsoever" Jesus "commanded" us.

[Archie777]

Archie: Are you certain every aspect of this view of the gospel is the "same thing Jesus said and taught"? Or, do you suspect it is possible certain aspects of your understanding of it might be wrong? If so, which aspects of it are you uncertain is without a doubt "the same thing Jesus said and taught"?

P: I'm interested as to why you asked this.

Because he said it is based "only on my educated belief". He is, unlike Ellen White, "flexible" is his understanding of the gospel. Since his beliefs are so radically different than mainstream Adventism, since he isn't absolutely certain each aspect is without error, I was hoping he would tell me which ones are still under review, which ones have yet to pass from uncertain to certain. This is a very serious matter. The temporal happiness and eternal salvation of souls is at stake.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, And just who was Jesus talking to when He said this? You left out one big piece of the pie--John 14:26 and 17:20.

Jesus said everything that you gave as texts before His death. He then talked to them after His death, didn't He?

As for the dark ages, this too was prophesied about in Revelation and in Mat. 21:43.

You said EGW was needed to restore lost or perverted truths during the Dark Ages. Can you please describe to me how she recovered the lost or perverted truths? Is one of them that Noah preached for 120 years? If so, can you please tell me why Noah would preach anything to anyone--as found in P&P? Didn't God tell him that only he and his family would be saved? Didn't God tell Noah to build the ark a certain size? Didn't God say that everyone else would be lost? If so, then why preach?

EGW's books are great fiction for she added many things that just are not biblical because she wanted to make a story out of it. Problem is, people have taken them as the truth, just as what was prophesied in Rev. 2:18-.

Why do you believe EGW is a prophet of God and Joseph Smith isn't? Don't the Mormons feel the same way about Joseph Smith as you do with EGW? I have lots of Mormon friends who have read EGW's books and have found errors and just can't believe how all of the stupid SDA's can keep believing that she was a true prophet of God. What makes you so special?

[Guest]

Rich, aren't you going against what you have been told by the moderator here, about spewing that nonsense you believe about EGW?

Most of what you believe is fiction. I can say that because it's true. But you've been told to stop bearing false witness against Paul and Ellen White. Not to mention the fact that it's breaking one of the commandments.

[Archie777]

And just who was Jesus talking to when He said this? You left out one big piece of the pie--John 14:26 and 17:20. Jesus said everything that you gave as texts before His death. He then talked to them after His death, didn't He?

When Jesus referred to sending the Holy Spirit, He had in mind the day of Pentecost. Do you agree?

PS - I don't feel this is the appropriate time and place to discuss whether or not Jesus spoke through Ellen White.

[BobRyan]

Archie, And just who was Jesus talking to when He said this? You left out one big piece of the pie--John 14:26 and 17:20.

Jesus said everything that you gave as texts before His death. He then talked to them after His death, didn't He?

As for the dark ages, this too was prophesied about in Revelation and in Mat. 21:43.

You said EGW was needed to restore lost or perverted truths during the Dark Ages. Can you please describe to me how she recovered the lost or perverted truths? Is one of them that Noah preached for 120 years? If so, can you please tell me why Noah would preach anything to anyone--as found in P&P? Didn't God tell him that only he and his family would be saved? Didn't God tell Noah to build the ark a certain size? Didn't God say that everyone else would be lost? If so, then why preach?

Every now and then I stop by for a sneak peek - and it seems like Rich knows less now than he did before. Are his views some form of "anti-knowledge"? What is up with that??

To answer the very basic question he asks above -- I refer Rich to the book of Jonah.

Nuff said.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Archie, just so Rich doesn't go into some big diatribe, I'll just tell you. They believe Pentecost was just a counterfeit done by Satan. Imagine that. And Paul's experience on the road to Damascus? Satan.

[Guest]

Every now and then I stop by for a sneak peek - and it seems like Rich knows less now than he did before. Are his views some form of "anti-knowledge"? What is up with that??

I'm glad you said something Bob. I have noticed that also, but I thought it was just me.

[Musicman1228]

“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. Rev.3:8-9.

All right, what does this mean?

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, I am NOT (please open your eyes), bearing false testimony about Paul and EGW! What I wrote is the truth and you can't prove me wrong. I know what I am talking about and I refuse to bow down to people who want to make a slave out of me or are attempting to make me believe and practice a lie. So go ahead and throw me in the lions den. I am telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God! If you don't believe it, that is YOUR problem, not mine. I am not forcing anyone to believe the truth, it is a choice one must make some day. Someone asked me questions on this thread and I simply answered them. What I believe is one thing and what you believe is another, so be it! One day soon we will see who is right. If you are right both of us will be saved by grace. If I am, well, that is another story.

And Archie, I trust the words of the eyewitnesses over hearsay evidence and when John wrote that Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit, that is what I believe. If Richard and the others believe what John said was a lie, then so be it.

And Bob, what does the book of Jonah have to do with anything? Dah? God had Jonah warn the people but God never had Noah warn anyone. Big difference my friend. If you don't believe me, then please do your own study. In fact, Jesus said that NO ONE knew what was going to happen (Mat. 24) and I know Jesus was not a liar! How sad it is that people are right now being warned to repent (Rev. 2 and 3) and because of a false apostle and prophet, they refuse to open their eyes! My Oh My.

[Archie777]

And Archie, I trust the words of the eyewitnesses over hearsay evidence and when John wrote that Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit, that is what I believe. If Richard and the others believe what John said was a lie, then so be it.

Yes, Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But what do you think happened on Pentecost? I read what Richard wrote. Is it true? Do you believe Pentecost was of satanic origin?

[Musicman1228]

I won't answer for Dr. Rich, I will only answer for myself by asking a question; Why would Jesus feel the need to give His Disciples the Holy Spirit more than one time? If Jesus is God (and we know He is) then wouldn't once be enough?

[Guest]

One doesn't have to study long, to find that the HS can be given in different measures.

[Archie777]

Musicman, what do you make of the Pentecost event described in the book of Acts? Regarding your question, the following explains how I see it:

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." The Holy Spirit was not yet fully manifested; for Christ had not yet been glorified. The more abundant impartation of the Spirit did not take place till after Christ's ascension. Not until this was received could the disciples fulfill the commission to preach the gospel to the world. But the Spirit was now given for a special purpose. Before the disciples could fulfill their official duties in connection with the church, Christ breathed His Spirit upon them. He was committing to them a most sacred trust, and He desired to impress them with the fact that without the Holy Spirit this work could not be accomplished. {DA 805.2}

Do you agree there are gradual ways and progressive reasons we need and receive the Holy Spirit? Or, do you believe when we receive the Holy Spirit we, at that precise moment, receive everything He is capable of imparting? Is it possible to receive the fullness of God the instant we experience the miracle of rebirth? Can newborn babes in Christ withstand such a thing without being blown away?

[wayfinder]

Luke wrote the book of Acts, so all of the accounts are secondhand at best. Paul was most likely the one who gave Luke his story and Paul was not among those at Pentecost. It is interesting to note how Luke describes the characteristic of the tongue (singular) that appeared. Luke uses the word (Diamerizo) which translates "parted, separated, in opposition to, to cleave asunder. The King James translation says "cloven". The word for tongue (Glossa) is a singular noun, but some translations make it plural, it is not plural. The reason for the translation into plural noun is because if it was left singular it would be a parted (forked) tongue. You can see the problem, who would believe that the Holy Spirit would manifest as a "forked" (serpents) tongue? So the translators make it appear that a tongue appeared then split into several tongues and sat on the foreheads, the truth is in the original. A forked (cloven) tongue, as of fire, appeared and it moved from forehead to forehead and when it sat on the forehead the individual immediately began speaking in tongues. A similar experience is described in Acts 11:13-18. Luke is consistent in his method to insure that the "salvation by grace" is woven into every account he writes, including his "gospel". In Acts 11 he demonstrates that the baptism of the Holy Spirit has replaced the baptism by water, for none of the gentile converts had been water baptized when they were "spirit baptized", note Luke’s emphasis on "John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit".

[Guest]

Wayfinder, so in your own heretical way, you're saying you don't believe it was from God at all.

I'm courious though. When exactly did God make the switch? When did He stop sending true prophets to His people, and start sending them false prophets? And when did God start allowing Satan to lead His people? Can you pinpoint it?

You should be able to, if you know half of what you claim to know.

[wayfinder]

God has never ever sent a false prophet, He has allowed false prophets, but never sent one!

I have, many times, offered the parable of the wheat and tares as a proof, not the only proof, but a good proof, you have always dismissed this as no proof at all. Then you tell me I have never proved my understanding from scripture, I have always provided scripture proof, you just don't accept it as such, and that, my friend, is your privilege.