What does this mean?

[Guest]

Richard and others, did you see any quotations marks around the word ALONE? I think not! Now let it go already! This whole thing you attempted to do here is ridicules and to me you were both acting like jerks. A 'jerk' is one who actually attempts to annoy someone without any grounds to do so.

[skyblue888]

Why don't we let the Son of God explain the need for and use of parables.

An Explanation

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?"

11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance ; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ;

15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Of which group are you, of which group am I? Would it not be important to know.

___________________________________________

Isaiah prophesied more for us than for them.

sky

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

Why don't we let the Son of God explain the need for and use of parables.

An Explanation

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?"

11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance ; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ;

15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Of which group are you, of which group am I? Would it not be important to know.

___________________________________________

Isaiah prophesied more for us than for them.

sky

You are more than likely correct about that, but will Isaiah's prophecies be as misunderstood and misapplied as they were in Christ's day?

[skyblue888]

Absolutely. We are repeating their history. "There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been is what will be." Ecc.1:9.

sky

[wayfinder]

Absolutely. We are repeating their history. "There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been is what will be." Ecc.1:9.

sky

Does that mean that we are predestined to repeat it or are we able to get it right if we really want to and try with all our God given abilities and insight from the Holy Spirit.

[skyblue888]

Some will get it right just as in the days of Christ some did. Christ and His followers became a "little church" within the "established church" which was left behind at the stoning of Stephen. Probation closed for the Jewish church there and then but the apostles and their converts, through persecution by the leaders of the "established church" were forced to go to the Gentiles with their message. I believe history will be repeated in these last days. If the established church refuses the last message of mercy and character assassinate the bearers of that message, probation will close for her and the bearers of that message will take their message to the world and it will swell into the loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, then the judgment will accomplish the final separation between the wheat and the tares, the wise and the foolish, the good and the evil, general probation will close and the faithful few will enter the time of Jacob's trouble while the rest of the world goes through the great time of trouble prior to the appearing of Jesus in the clouds of heaven.

sky

[wayfinder]

Wow, then there is still some hope for God's people. Thank you sky.

Matthew 7:14 "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

Revelation 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white for they are worthy.

Yes, sky, it appears you have textual evidence to support that.

[skyblue888]

Interestingly enough, in 1903 Mrs. White applied the message to the Sardis church to the people of Laodicea, Seventh-day Adventists.

"In the message to the church at Sardis two parties are presented--those who have a name to live, but are dead; and those who are striving to overcome. Study this message, found in the third chapter of Revelation {Revelation 3:1,2 quoted.} Who are meant by those who are ready to die? and what has made them thus? The explanation is given, 'I have not found thy works perfect before Me.' {verses 3 to 5 quoted.} To the church of the present day this message is sent. I call upon our church members to read the whole of the third chapter of Revelation, and to make an application of it. The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen {verses 14-18 quoted.}" RH Aug,20,1903.

Revelation 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white for they are worthy."

In the book The Great Controversy, the message to the church at Philadelphia is applied after the close of probation. The two promises made to Philadelphia (Rev.3:10,11) have not been fulfilled yet and will not be fulfilled until the fifth plague when those who are about to slay the saints will instead fall at their feet and acknowledge that God has loved them. See G.C.560,619.

sky

[Musicman1228]

sky said, "In the book The Great Controversy, the message to the church at Philadelphia is applied after the close of probation. The two promises made to Philadelphia (Rev.3:10,11) have not been fulfilled yet and will not be fulfilled until the fifth plague when those who are about to slay the saints will instead fall at their feet and acknowledge that God has loved them. See G.C.560,619."

Can you give me a proof text from Revelation which pinpoints the time when the fulfillment of Rev.3:10-11 occurs? My understanding is that the bowing down at the feet of the righteous happens during the time of the Trumpets not during the time of the Bowls of Wrath, that is, after the close of probation for the Kingdom of Heaven, but before the close of probation for the world at the 7th Trumpet. Please advise. Thanks.

[skyblue888]

The first four trumpets were judgments that fell upon Pagan Rome. The fifth and sixth trumpets were judgments that fell upon Papal Rome and the seventh trumpet will be the judgments that will fall upon Babylon the Great after the close of probation. In other words the seventh trumpet is the seven last plagues.

The bowing down at the feet of the righteous does not take place before probabtion closes but at the time of the fifth plague.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sky...I used to think the same as you until I actually saw what happens when the trumpets blow. Rev. 8:7 description is evidence to me that this has not yet happened just as none of the other 7 trumpets have blown. Hmmm? But over all on what you wrote I thought was very good.

[Musicman1228]

The first four trumpets were judgments that fell upon Pagan Rome. The fifth and sixth trumpets were judgments that fell upon Papal Rome and the seventh trumpet will be the judgments that will fall upon Babylon the Great after the close of probation. In other words the seventh trumpet is the seven last plagues.

The bowing down at the feet of the righteous does not take place before probabtion closes but at the time of the fifth plague.

sky

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev. 11:15.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Rev.11:19.

The way that I read these verses is that at the Seventh Trumpet probation has closed for the world, and the kingdoms are transferred. The evidence is that the 'ark of His Covenant' is seen by the inhabitants of the world, along with physical manifestations delivered upon the earth. These manifestations are NOT the Bowls of Wrath, but they do occur after this event.

The Fifth Trumpet (Rev.9:1-11) clearly states that the Angel of the Abyss is released and rules the earth for 5 months, and at the end of this period of time the kingdoms are transferred. This angel is Satan who will, at that time, stand in the Temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself to be God. What evidence can you show that this event occurred at any time in the past. I have found no historic evidence to support that this has already happened.

The Sixth Trumpet is a war that is described in Daniel 11. It is a literal war with 200,000,000 men under arms fighting to secure Satan's kingdom, with Satan eventually setting up his throne in Jerusalem, AKA Babylon the Great (Dan.11:45). This has not yet happened, at least as to how I read the prophecy. Can you support your interpretation with Scripture?

[incidentally, Satan sets up his throne in Jerusalem not Rome. We need to look to Jerusalem as the place to find our arch enemy, not the dreaded Papacy. Yes, the Papacy and the RCC are part of the 1st Beast of Rev.13, but not the only or even the most important part.]

[Archie777]

Jodie, I agree with you. The testimonies of Mark, Luke, and Paul are sources of light and inspiration. Jesus speaks to my heart and soul through them. The flow and harmony is rich and real. I thank God every day for testimonies such as theirs. Reading and heeding the truths contained in the Bible is one of Jesus' many ways of filling me with hope and joy and peace. He uses it to fortify me against temptations from within and from without. And He also uses it to empower me to behold and imitate His good and godly example. The whole thing truly sets me free. Thank you, Jesus!

[Guest]

Amen Archie! I feel the same way.

[Gail]

[Archie777]

"The way to dispel darkness is to admit light. The best way to deal with error is to present truth. {DA 498.5}

1 Corinthians

2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[Dr. Rich]

1Cor 2:2: "For I determined not to know any thing among you,.." Hmmm? Sounds to me like he had a closed mind. Perhaps he should have gotten some information from the eyewitnesses first? Don't we have some evidence that Peter had the same problem with Paul? (Pseudo Clementine's Homily 17-19)

[skyblue888]

brother Rich, is not Christ crucified in you and in me and in the other person? Does He not bear the curse wherever it is found? No one or no thing in the universe can bear the curse and still live, except Christ. If we were left to bear this burden we would immediately be crushed. The cross of Christ is not a thing of a single day. From the very first inception of sin in the heavenly abodes, the cross of Christ was erected. He was slain before the foundation of the world. If Christ had not accepted to bear the curse of sin in Lucifer, he would have been crushed immediately. So Christ is crucified in every man. In most men the only evidence that He is there, bearing the curse in them, is that they breathe. "The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us." D.A.328, bottom of page.

Yea, we have the testimony in our own bodies, in that, although sinful and corruptible, we yet live. Not until one has seen Christ crucified before his eyes, and can see the cross of Christ at every turn, does one know the reality of the Gospel.

For this reason, "I determine not to know anything among you except Christ and Him crucified."

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sky, there is a big foundational problem with this type of issue. Here is the thing:

First of all, each of us is to bear our own cross. This means each one of us is responsible for the choice(s) we make and it has nothing to do with the death of Jesus.

Second, Jesus' death was NOT the "Atonement" sacrifice. (This is where Paul and the unknown writer of Hebrews gets all mixed up.) His death was the same as the Passover which was either a one year spotless lamb or goat. The death of this sacrifice did NOT pay for anyone's sin, nor did it represent a payment or cleansing for anyone's sin. However, by obeying the command that God gave about this, (sprinkle the blood on the lintel and door jamb-roast it by fire-eat all of it-eat it in hast-and so forth) the first born males of humans AND animals would not be killed. It was not the sacrifice itself, it was what people did that would keep the first born makes male alive--even IF that person was a foreigner-all they had to do was obey God.

Since Adam sinned but was not killed as God said he was going to be killed, Jesus' death made it POSSIBLE to be saved from this same punishment for our own sins. BUT it is conditional! First one must know everything that Jesus said and taught AND then obey! PERIOD!

So I find that it is very important to know what Jesus said and taught first and then if there is any controversy with any other writer, then go with Jesus. It is very dangerous to believe what others say, write and teach.

[Archie777]

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus contradicted. None of the 40 authors who wrote the 66 books of the Bible contradict anything Jesus said while He was here in the flesh. Jesus inspired them to share the truth. He saves those who believe on Him "through their word" and "works". Jesus said, "I am glorified in them." In particular, I believe the authors who wrote the NT spoke the words of Jesus. They taught us to observe "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. If any one of them contradicted anything Jesus said, I believe one or more of the disciples would have said so. Peter approved of Paul, received him warmly, and highly recommended his words and works. I believe we can trust Peter's approval of Paul.

John

14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Matthew

28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

[Dr. Rich]

Archie, you left out John 14:26. No one other that the disciples could 'remember' what Jesus said-right? You provide the verses showing that Jesus sent out His disciples to ALL Nations-which would include the gentiles-right? So why would God need anyone else to do this?

You said that nowhere in the bible is Jesus contradicted. Here is only one--for there are many more:

Please compare John 3:5-8 & John 15:1-10 with Romans 11:17-21. I don't see where Jesus said anything about adoption--do you?

And where do you get the idea that Peter approved of Paul's gospel? No he didn't! Have you read Pseudo Clementine Homely 19 which gives us a picture of how Peter really felt toward Paul? Paul himself admitted that he did not agree with the 'pillars' of the new church, one of them being Peter. (See Gal.2) In fact, Paul admitted he did not get anything from the disciples. He also said that if anyone, including an angel sent from Heaven preached a different gospel other than what he preached that they should be cursed! Was Paul talking about Peter here? Hmmm? Please look at Gal. 3:15-29. This is totally against what Jesus said and taught! It's not even correct!

[Guest]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It's the exact same thing. When you become someone else's son, that means they have adopted you.

[Guest]

And where do you get the idea that Peter approved of Paul's gospel?

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you;

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

[Dr. Rich]

Thought so. Might want to check out who wrote 1st and 2nd Peter before you claim that Peter approved of Paul's gospel. My bible's heading states: "Although the author [of 2nd Peter] claimed to be the Apostle Peter, no book of the New Testament had a more difficult time establishing its authenticity and place in the canon. This was due in part to the fact that so many second and third century writers had used the name of Peter as their author." Fact is, no one knows who the real author of 1st and 2nd Peter was, especially 2nd Peter.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Thought so. Might want to check out who wrote 1st and 2nd Peter before you claim that Peter approved of Paul's gospel. My bible's heading states: "Although the author [of 2nd Peter] claimed to be the Apostle Peter, no book of the New Testament had a more difficult time establishing its authenticity and place in the canon. This was due in part to the fact that so many second and third century writers had used the name of Peter as their author."

Dr. Rich, I'm sure you realize that there are many good study Bibles and not all of them agree on the kind of information you are talking about. You should read the introduction written to the letters of Peter in the English Standard Version study Bible published by Crossway. These introductions speak of the issues about Peter's letters that you are writing about, but they show that the evidence is not sufficient to cause one to conclude that Peter was not the author of the epistles.

Do you believe everything that your Bible headings state? Do you believe the headings, for instance, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, on page 1618 of the Key Word Study Bible? Do you believe what your Bible's headings read in the letters of Paul? Your Bible headings also show that Peter wrote First Peter in the late 60s, towards the end of Peter's life. Do you beleive these things?

These are the opinions of various writers and Bible scholars. There are also plenty of good Bible scholars who believe and can show reason for believing that Peter wrote the letters attributed to Him. The fact is that there are many Bible scholars who don't believe the book of Daniel was written by Daniel; that the book of Deut. was written by Moses; and that Revelation was written by the apostle John. So if we are going to believe all the things that many Bible scholars have said, we won't believe that Daniel was written by a real person named Daniel of the 6th century BC or that Revelation was written by John the Beloved.