Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[John317]

MM, I didn't know you don't even believe in the Early and the Latter Rains. From my perspective, that's dangerous. It's the same with SDAs who reject the book Great Controversy. I don't know how they expect to be saved when they reject this light that God has blessed us with.

It's different with people who've never been exposed to the truth and who therefore haven't rejected it; but it's something else with SDAs who know this truth, or who have heard or read it all their life, and then reject it. If we don't let the truth sanctify us, we will come to the place where we will hate it and consider it of the devil, and even think we're doing God's work by fighting against it. What can God do at that point but let us go our own way?

I agree that the following verses posted by JSM should answer your question:

“Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE [through His Spirit] SHALL COME TO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3.

“Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.” John 7:37-39.

[Musicman1228]

“Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE [through His Spirit] SHALL COME TO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3.

This text in Hosea is for literal Israel. It is a 'Life Road' prophecy, wherein if Israel had accomplished what God had desired for them this prophecy would have come to pass. Since Israel chose the 'Death Road' prophecies for itself this prophecy in Hosea is 'sealed up', that is, it will never come to pass because the conditions of it's fulfillment were not met, and the time for it's fulfillment is passed (70x7=490 years).

And, yes, it is my understanding that any time prophecies that were not fulfilled on the Restoration Calendar (Jubilee) will be fulfilled in literal time (days) either immediately preceding or during the Time of Trouble.

[jsm]

MM, I strongly urge you to be careful not to abuse what the Bible says. There are many promises to literal Israel that were not fulfilled through them; but they will be fulfilled. This is repeatedly stated in the Bible:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that He should lie,

Nor a son of man, that He should repent.

Has He said, and will He not do?

Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Psalms 89:34

My covenant I will not break,

Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I do not change.

Psalm 33:11

The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations.

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

[wayfinder]

MM, I strongly urge you to be careful not to abuse what the Bible says. There are many promises to literal Israel that were not fulfilled through them; but they will be fulfilled. This is repeatedly stated in the Bible:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that He should lie,

Nor a son of man, that He should repent.

Has He said, and will He not do?

Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Psalms 89:34

My covenant I will not break,

Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I do not change.

Psalm 33:11

The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations.

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

God did not break His covenant, but Israel did. What God is saying is, I (God) will do anything against My covenant. Israel, on the other hand, did break the covenant and many times God makes this known.

Jeremiah 31:32 NAS

not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

Notice the context of the marriage covenant, when God uses His relationship to the covenant as "Husband". There is not doubt that Israel broke the marriage covenant by their adultries. God did not commit adultry and therefore He was faithful to the marriage covenant. The covenant was broken because Israel broke it.

There is a difference between a conditional promise and an unconditional promise. A conditional promise contains a conditional conjunctive i.e. but if. The following is an example of a conditional promise.

Leviticus 26:9 'So I will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will confirm My covenant with you. 10 'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. 11 'Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you. 12 'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people. 13 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt so that you would not be their slaves, and I broke the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect.

14 'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, 15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, 16 I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away ; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up. 17 'I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies ; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you. 18 'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 'I will also break down your pride of power ; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.

The following is an example of an unconditional promise. Notice that there is a "but" but not a "but if"

Numbers 14:21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD.

[Dr. Rich]

There you go John317, you totally gave the reason why our Sabbath School class decided to study into prophecy. There are SO many views and ideas floating around out there, not only in the Adventist Church, but with all Christians all over the world. It appears from your words that you agree with all of this confusion and perhaps that it was God's plan to have all of this confusion. Well, I don't!

The book on Daniel and Revelation you wrote about is what our Sabbath School used to compare with what was written in the bible and caused us to see that she had mistaken believed too many things to even trust ANYTHING that she wrote. The other books have serious problems too.

Oh, why did you call it "Jacobs time of trouble"?

And jsm, I have already read about the first four trumpets and the writer of this had to be totally clueless as to what and when and how things are really going to be.

And John, please take the prophecy given to Jonah for an example of a conditional prophecy. You are behaving just as Jonah did, and when the prophecies you believe will still happen don't, I will bet you will do as what Jonah did too. So don't be so sure of yourself and have an open mind that will allow you to see the truth when it presents itself. Your thinking that Adventists have been shown ALL of the truth and are not in need of any more is what I call a dangerous belief to have. Why you will not even consider that EGW was wrong in some of her writings (the GC for one) is enough proof for me to see that your eyes are not open for the real truth.

[jsm]

mm asked for a Bible verse connecting the latter rain with the Spirit.

We clearly showed that Hosea 6:3 does that. [Read it in your Bible].

But now, sadly, mm and others choose to avoid recognizing that text and its reasonable applications.

So consider these additional latter rain texts:

James 5:7-8

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious FRUIT of the earth, waiting patiently for it UNTIL it [first] receives the early and and latter rain.

You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Zechariah 10:1

Ask the LORD for rain

In the time of the latter rain.

The LORD will make flashing clouds;

He will give them showers of rain,

Grass in the field for everyone.

As John said, [in agreement with James 5:7 above], we need the early rain now in order to be ready for the latter rain.

I had farms for many years for a profitable[?] and healthful diversion. As part of this, I raised dryland grain crops for awhile; so I certainly understand the early and latter rain. The early rain is needed to germinate the seed; but then without the latter rain, what looks from a distance at harvest time like a bountiful yield, will just be empty shells.

The following will help in applying this rain to the Holy Spirit in our lives:

Galatians 3:2-3; 5:5.

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit [early rain for seed germination] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by [works of] the flesh?" [Obviously not].

"For we through the Spirit [early & latter rain] eagerly wait for the hope of Righteousness by faith."

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.

So, "those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works." Titus 3:8.

[Musicman1228]

Where in these texts is the connection with the Holy Spirit. I see a connection between those verses and LITERAL rain, but not rain symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit in the upper room prior to His ascending to His Father the second time (first time was right after His resurrection on Sabbath evening). Why on earth (or in Heaven) would Jesus need to give an extra measure of the Holy Spirit to anyone, when all they have to do is provide a clean place for the Holy Spirit to dwell?

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, it appears that you are the ignoring part(s) of the bible. One MUST take the whole thing--and only then you will be able to see the truth and be able to discern what is right and what is wrong. If you fail to see and understand Daniel 9:24 and know what this is all about, then you will blindly read about prophecies for THEM (the second attempt to get the Jews/Israel to get rid of sin). Since you totally ignore this conditional prophecy and what Jesus said in Matthew 21:43, you will continue to believe that the prophecies about the second KOH (as found in Daniel 9:24 and preached by John the Baptist) will have to come true. Can't you see that your way of thinking is no better than the Zionist Jews who are still waiting for their Messiah to appear and sit on the throne in Jerusalem?

[Guest]

Why on earth (or in Heaven) would Jesus need to give an extra measure of the Holy Spirit to anyone,

2Ki 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. 2Ki 2:14,15

[Guest]

MM, I didn't know you don't even believe in the Early and the Latter Rains. From my perspective, that's dangerous. It's the same with SDAs who reject the book Great Controversy. I don't know how they expect to be saved when they reject this light that God has blessed us with.

It's different with people who've never been exposed to the truth and who therefore haven't rejected it; but it's something else with SDAs who know this truth, or who have heard or read it all their life, and then reject it. If we don't let the truth sanctify us, we will come to the place where we will hate it and consider it of the devil, and even think we're doing God's work by fighting against it. What can God do at that point but let us go our own way?

I agree that the following verses posted by JSM should answer your question:

“Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE [through His Spirit] SHALL COME TO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3.

“Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive.” John 7:37-39.

AMEN!

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: There you go John317, you totally gave the reason why our Sabbath School class decided to study into prophecy. There are SO many views and ideas floating around out there, not only in the Adventist Church, but with all Christians all over the world. It appears from your words that you agree with all of this confusion and perhaps that it was God's plan to have all of this confusion. Well, I don't!

Do you and others in your Sabbath school class at an SDA church teach that Ellen White was a false prophet and that Paul's writings and other parts of the NT are also full of false teachings?

While all this confusion is not something God willed to happen, the confusion is definitely something that God told us would happen. And it clearly is something that God has allowed, and He will doubtless eventually bring harmony out of chaos. He knows what He's doing.

The different views people have are not the fault of the Bible. They are due to many causes, and one of them is that not all people accept ALL of the Bible. Another one is that not all have the Holy Spirit guiding them. Still another is that some people are motivated differently. Some people are children of the devil. See John 8: 44. The Bible itself tells us that some people love a lie and do not come to the light because they love darkness. Others can't hear Christ's voice in the Scriptures. God was speaking but Eve was listening to another spirit. These are a few of the reasons the Bible gives for the confusion. But would you blame the word of God and encourage people not to listen to it? That's what an alien power did at the Tree, as I recall.

[Guest]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: There you go John317, you totally gave the reason why our Sabbath School class decided to study into prophecy. There are SO many views and ideas floating around out there, not only in the Adventist Church, but with all Christians all over the world. It appears from your words that you agree with all of this confusion and perhaps that it was God's plan to have all of this confusion. Well, I don't!

Do you and others in your Sabbath school class at an SDA church teach that Ellen White was a false prophet and that Paul's writings and other parts of the NT are also full of false teachings?

While all this confusion is not something God willed to happen, the confusion is definitely something that God told us would happen. And it clearly is something that God has allowed, and He will doubtless eventually bring harmony out of chaos. He knows what He's doing.

The different views people have are not the fault of the Bible. They are due to many causes, and one of them is that not all people accept ALL of the Bible. Another one is that not all have the Holy Spirit guiding them. Still another is that some people are motivated differently. Some people are children of the devil. See John 8: 44. The Bible itself tells us that some people love a lie and do not come to the light because they love darkness. Others can't hear Christ's voice in the Scriptures. God was speaking but Eve was listening to another spirit. These are a few of the reasons the Bible gives for the confusion. But would you blame the word of God and encourage people not to listen to it? That's what an alien power did at the Tree, as I recall.

Amen again!

[jsm]

Rich, I urge you to "take the whole thing" together on the topic of RAIN [WATER] and the HOLY SPIRIT in the following verses. Don't try to divert this discussion to your apparent problems with Daniel 9.

“Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE [through His SPIRIT] SHALL COME TO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3.

“Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER.’ But this He spoke concerning THE SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive.” John 7:37-39.

"Whoever drinks of the WATER [the SSPIRIT] that I shall give him will never thirst. But the WATER taht I shall give him shall become in him A FOUNTAIN OF WATER [like the early & latter rains?] springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14.

"For I will pour WATER on him who is thirsty...I will pour MY SPIRIT on your descendants." Isaiah 44:3.

James 5:7-8 [with my comments]

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord [HIS HARVEST TIME].

See how the farmer WAITS for the precious FRUIT of the earth [HARVEST TIME],

waiting patiently for it UNTIL it [FIRST] receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.

You also be patient

[uNTIL YOU RECEIVE THE RAIN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT].

Establish your hearts,

for the coming of the Lord [HARVEST TIME] is at hand.

Read also:

Ezekiel 36:27

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

1 Peter 1:2

Elect...IN SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT ['and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ'] FOR OBEDIENCE.

1 Peter 1:22

Since you have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT in sincere love

1 John 3:24

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that HE ABIDES IN US BY THE SPIRIT whom He has given us.

[jsm]

mm wrote: "Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit in the upper room prior to His ascending to His Father the second time (first time was right after His resurrection on Sabbath evening)."

John 20:22 describes that upper room experience: "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the HOLY GHOST."

But Matthew 10:20 makes it evident the disciples had also been given the Holy Spirit before their missionary journey, during which they healed, cast out demons, and were told by the Holy Spirit what to say.

This was a continuation of OT experiences when others were told by the HOLY SPIRIT what to say:

Compare with Mark 12:36, "For David himself said BY THE HOLY SPIRIT..."

2 Peter 1:21, "For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Exodus 35:31, "And He has filled them with THE SPIRIT OF GOD, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship."

God, through His Spirit, must have come to them "like the rain." Hosea 6:3.

Zechariah 4:6, "Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

The HOLY SPIRIT has been active in many ways:

Matthew 1:20, "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

A promise similar to that given to the disciples is given to people throughout Christian history, and in the future:

Mark 13:11, "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

1 John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

There are many more related verses.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, thanks for the verses and I have read them over and over and agree with those that agree with what Jesus said and taught. But all of that is irrelevant to the issue of the seriousness of what John317 called "The Word of God". He is calling the whole bible the Word of God and then chastised us for not believing in it. That is the ISSUE and foundation for every thread on this blog.

What IF Constantine actually had more books in the New Testament,(much like the Catholic bible has the Apocrypha) and all of these other people claimed to be apostles of Jesus too? Then what would you do?

When investigating what the truth is in any criminal case, you narrow it down until you get a common denominator and all of the evidence is united. When you do this with the bible, you must narrow it down to the words of Jesus by eyewitnesses and the OT. And that is what we have done.

When you can honestly do this, then you can begin to study prophecy. Because if you try as you are doing now with the foundation being from people who can't be trusted, then your whole idea what prophecy means will look like a jig saw puzzle put together by toddlers. Try starting over, but this time use a good foundation.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ....all of that is irrelevant to the issue of the seriousness of what John317 called "The Word of God". He is calling the whole bible the Word of God and then chastised us for not believing in it. That is the ISSUE and foundation for every thread on this blog.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: What IF Constantine actually had more books in the New Testament,(much like the Catholic bible has the Apocrypha) and all of these other people claimed to be apostles of Jesus too? Then what would you do?

That's a big IF, and it never happened-- for a good reason, the same reason those books of the Apocrypha didn't make their way into the Hebrew Bible: because God kept the Bible free of false doctrines. God was watching over His Word.

All of God's word agrees with itself, and it is self-verifying. I don't need Constantine to tell me that the Gospels are true and inspired. I know they are because when I read them, I hear the voice of Christ speaking to me through those books. The same with all the Bible.

I do read the Apocrypha as well as some of the other early Christian writings, but while some of them have interesting and even some good material in them, they don't contain the word of God. I don't hear the voice of Christ speaking to me through them. They were not inspired. They are not God's words, as the Bible most certainly is. (I also read the Qur'an, the Buddhist Scriptures, the Taoist and the Hindu Scriptures, but I don't hear the voice of Christ speaking to me in their pages. Nor in the letters and sermons or writings of early church Fathers.)

What you are forgetting, apparently, is that during the early centuries-- before Constantine's time-- the Christian believers had to decide which books were Scripture and which were not. They could turn over non-Scripture to the Romans authorities during times of persecution, but they couldn't turn over those portions they knew to be Holy Scripture. They guarded those with their lives. And this occurred long before Constantitne's day. These churches were spread far and wide all over that part of the world, and they had no way of communicating except by letter. Travel over such distances was difficult. So there was no way for one man or even several men to control or change all the ancient manuscripts. They might change one or two or even three, but they couldn't change all of them because they weren't all under one person's authority. It can be be shown easily that the books in our NT were considered sacred long before the time of the church councils. All the church councils really did, as far as the formation of the NT canon is concerned, was to give their stamp of approval to the decisions that Christian congregations had already made over the last 300 or so years. It was a long process, not something that occurred overnight or that was forced down the throats of Christian believers.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Your thinking that Adventists have been shown ALL of the truth and are not in need of any more is what I call a dangerous belief to have.

I've never said those things, nor do I think them. I don't believe all truth has been revealed to SDAs or that God has no more truth for Adventists. I'm sure there is more truth that awaits us in the Bible, to be discovered through earnest prayer and study. No question about it.

[Guest]

Amen!

[jsm]

I agree with John and Richard, and so did EGW:

"We shall never reach a period when there is no increased light for us." EGW in RH 6/3/1890.

[John317]

Here are some relevant things that Ellen White said about "new light":

1) "The only safety for any of us is in receiving no new doctrine, no new interpretation of the Scripture, without first submitting it to the brethren of experience. Lay it before them in a humble, teachable spirit, with earnest prayer, and if they see no light in it, yield to their judgment" (ST 293).

2) "God has not passed His people by, and chosen one solitary man here and another there as the only ones worthy to be entrusted with His truth. He does not give one man new light contrary to the established faith of the body... Let none be self-confident, as though God had given them special light above their brethren" (ST 291).

3) "Some passages are placed beyond the reach of hman minds, until such a time as God chooses, in His own wisdom , to open them" 1 T 377.

4) "Great truths which have been neglected and unappreciated for ages, will be revealed by the Spirit of God, and new meaning will flash out of familiar texts" (CSW 35).

5) "There are mines of truth yet to be discovered by the earnest seeker. Christ represented the truth as treasure hidden in a field. It does not lie right upon the surface; we must dig for it. But our success in finding does not depend so much on our intellectual ability as our humility of heart and the faith which will lay hold upon divine aid" (5 T 704).

6) "There are glorious truths to come before the people of God. Privileges and duties which they do not even suspect to be in the Bible will be laid open before the followers of Christ" (TMK 114).

7) "While we must hold fast to the truths which we have already received, we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send" (GW 310).

8) "New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed... Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God" (CSW 34).

9) "All should be careful about presenting new views of Scripture... Introduce nothing that will cause dissension, without clear evidence that in it God is giving a special message for this time." TM 106

10) "Brethren, as an ambassador of Christ, I warn you to beware of these side issues, whose tendency is to divert the mind from the truth." 5 T 292

11) "My message to you is: No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth. Unmask the pretentious sophistries... I have been instructed to warn our people; for many are in danger of receiving theories and sophistries that undermine the foundation pillars of the faith" (1 SM 196, 197).

12) "Great truths that have lain unheeded since Pentecost, are to shine from God's Word in their native purity. To those who truly love God the Holy Spirit will reveal truths that have faded from the mind, and will also reveal truths that are entirely new" (Fund. Ed 473).

13) "Let none be self-confident, as though God had given them special light above their brethren" (5 T 291).

14) "I warn the Seventh-day Adventist Church to be careful how you receive every new notion and those who claim to have great light. The character of their work seems to be to accuse and to tear down" (2 SM 69).

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "All of God's word agrees with itself, and it is self-verifying."

This statement is a logical fallacy which assumes that the Bible is the very 'word of God' based on nothing more that the statement itself. Just saying it does not make it so regardless of how much one believes it. All logical fallacy is base on self delusion.

Just for the sack of understanding I have provided the definition of Logical Fallacy:

A deductive fallacy, or logical fallacy, is defined as a deductive argument that is invalid. The argument itself could have true premises, but still have a false conclusion[1]. Thus, a deductive fallacy is a fallacy where deduction goes wrong, and is no longer a logical process.

If you have never participated in formal debate or have studied LOGIC this may be confusing, this does not make the above definition untrue.

[John317]

Thanks for sharing that, MM.

Yes, I took college classes in Philosophy and a class in logic.

The problem here, MM, is that there's no way to show by the rules of logic that God made Adam and Eve; that Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac; that the pre-incarnate Christ existed with the Father from eternity, or that He is the Savior and that He is returning soon. If I were to go by the strict rules of logic, I would have to an agnostic. The rules you speak of do not allow for trust in a "Thus saith the Lord." By those rules, you would be hard put to prove that John the Beloved wrote either the fourth Gospel or the Apocalypse.

Another thing is that we're getting off the topic of the thread. If you like, you're welcome to start a discussion about the Philosophy of Religion or Faith and Reason, etc.

[Musicman1228]

Thanks for sharing that, MM.

Yes, I took college classes in Philosophy and a class in logic.

The problem here, MM, is that there's no way to show by the rules of logic that God made Adam and Eve; that Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac; that the pre-incarnate Christ existed with the Father from eternity, or that He is the Savior and that He is returning soon. If I were to go by the strict rules of logic, I would have to an agnostic. The rules you speak of do not allow for trust in a "Thus saith the Lord." By those rules, you would be hard put to prove that John the Beloved wrote either the fourth Gospel or the Apocalypse.

Another thing is that we're getting off the topic of the thread. If you like, you're welcome to start a discussion about the Philosophy of Religion or Faith and Reason, etc.

John, you are absolutely right in saying that logic cannot prove (or disprove) that everything in the Bible (events and instruction) can be stated as historic or intellectual fact. Yet within the context of what is written in the Bible (identified as a sub-set or sphere of self-contained information) you must use logic and reason to sift through what is true or not by comparing Scripture with Scripture. When this is done with self honesty there IS evidence of conflicting understandings.

By example: we have been taught by 'experts' that Noah preached a coming destruction on the anti-deluvian world. EGW makes statements to this effect, and it is the position of the church that this occurred. Yet when you look at the actual accounts as described in Gen.6 and 7 you do not see this as having happened. Couple that with what Jesus said in Matt:24:37-39 and the idea that Noah preached a warning to the people of his world must go away. IF this is the case then the only thing an honest person can do is recognize that either Jesus was in error or EGW and our church are in error, you cannot claim that both are correct.

This topic DOES impact greatly the study of prophecy in that without self-honesty no one can come to a consistent understanding and interpretation. If your source of information regarding the exegesis of prophecy is itself not reliable then all you do is build your house of understanding on the sifting sand of guesswork. I don't think that this fits the picture that any of us here on the forum want when it comes to developing our understanding of the order of events that are soon to take place. It is for this reason that it is so important to find and implement a STANDARD by which these conflicts of information and understanding can be resolved. For me and a few others that STANDARD is the True Witness-Jesus Christ.

Using the didactic method of inquiry and learning one is prohibited from using as a source the very thing that is the cause of the questioning of that source. Just saying that the 'Bible has no flaws, and is consistent cover to cover' does not automatically make is so (logical fallacy). A primary step in learning truth is to recognize the inconsistencies in the source of your information and reconcile those inconsistencies (as best you can) by comparing your information to a higher more reliable source. For me the words of Jesus Christ as issued to His own eyewitness Disciples is that higher source against which I compare ALL other testimony given in evidence from any other source, such as the Bible as a whole, the writings of EGW or any other 'expert witness' put forward by the 'church'.

This makes perfect sense to me, and I don't understand why other reasonable people don't see this as well; except that their current paradigms are so strong that they cannot be broached by logical method used within the sphere of influence dictated by the organized church. For many people the hold the 'church' has on what is the correct understanding of truth is stronger than can be overcome by facts, hard evidence and even the direct testimony of the author of Truth.

[Guest]

[jsm]

Logic has its place; but spiritual things are spiritually understood through the help of the Holy Spirit, as we prayerfully study and compare the writings of those inspired by God.

2 Peter 1.20-21

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We absolutely must recognize the need of the Holy Spirit and pray for His help.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit “will guide you into all truth.”

John 16:12-14 (New King James Version)

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”

Paul expanded on that:

1 Corinthians 2:3-14 (New King James Version)

3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” [isaiah 64:4]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (New King James Version)

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

1 Corinthians 1:20-24 (New King James Version)

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.