Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[jasd]

Edited by John317 (Today at 09:00 AM)

Edit Reason: Please don't encourage people to consider the rules unimportant. That makes my job harder on a thread like this, and I'm trying to make the Forum a friendly place for everyone to come. Thank you for your cooperation. :-)

Quote:

Quote:Dr. Rich

Stan, do you have any rules for your interpretation of prophecy? If not, then what good would it do to discuss prophecy if anyone can come here with any rule that they choose? My thought would be to develop some solid rules found from the bible itself, so that we all could play the same game without jousting each other. (unintentional of course)

Quote:

Quote:Richard Holbrook

Rich the rules you use. Were they not made up and chosen, by none other than you three guys? Give me a break. What you're suggesting is that we discard the rules William Miller used, and use the set that you made up. LOL

Umm, John317, you do err. You’ll note the above predicating quotes which elicited my response re “rules” in quotes.

You’ll also note that there was nothing in my post to indicate that the “rules” I addressed had anything to do with

FORUM RULES.

It is probable that you had an instinctive response re my very self – being who I am and what I represent – so no harm no foul; however, wouldn’t the correct response on your part now require you to

reinsert my opinion, however humble it may be.

[Musicman1228]

Seven rules (guidelines) for interpreting prophecy.

This is what I use and they have without fail yielded consistent results. My suggestion is to pick any end-time prophecy and apply these rules and see what you get. You might be surprised at how easy it is to get a clear result. I would also appreciate your feedback (hopefully constructive even if you disagree) on the usefulness of these rules. Thanks.

1.All prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time. Elements within a prophecy are consecutive and occur in chronological order.

2.In order for a prophetic fulfillment to occur, ALL elements of the prophecy must occur as stated within the prophecy. (This precludes partial or multiple fulfillments, or types of fulfillments.)

3.The interpretation for a symbol will be given within the prophecy. If no interpretation is given, then the symbol is to be taken literally.

4.Timing within the restoration calendar (Jubilee) is given in days/years. One day equals one year. Timing after the expiration of the "restoration calendar" is literal.

5.Time Elements - A year is one rotation of the earth around the sun, calculated as beginning at the Spring Equinox. The half year occurs on the Fall Equinox. Months are calculated from the lunar cycle and begin on the New Moon and end the day before the next new moon. Weeks begin on the first day of the week (Sunday) and end on the seventh day of the week (Sabbath). A Day is the rotation of the earth around its axis in 24 hours.

6.Time Specific Prophecy - Certain prophecies or elements of prophecy have a specific time for their understanding. These prophecies can be read anytime, but the understanding of the interpretation of these prophecies is sealed up until a specific time has been reached. Before these prophecies are unsealed (understood at the specific time) it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be understood and/or accurately interpreted.

7.Only the Wise will understand - both the time when the prophecy is unsealed and the accurate interpretation of the prophecy when it is unsealed. (See Dan. 12: 9-10)

[Guest]

MM, if those rules of yours had anything to do with some of the stuff you've come up with, then I for one don't want anything to do with them.

Adventism was founded using these rules of interpretation. And I suggest we stick with them. If it weren't for William Miller and his rules, you wouldn't be able to call yourself SDA. Because there wouldn't be any.

William Miller’s Rules of Intepretation

(with full Bible Passages included)

From Memoirs of William Miller by Sylvester Bliss 1853, Pages 70-72

See also Review and Herald March 16, 1868

“That we may proceed intelligently, …I shall give an extract or two from Mr. Miller's rules of

interpretation, which are substantially those of every judicious interpreter of the word of God.”

James White – RH Sep 16 1951

IN studying the Bible, I have found the following rules to be of great service to myself, and now give them to the public by special request. Every rule should be well studied, in connexion with the scripture references, if the Bible student would be at all benefited by them.

RULE I.

Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible.

PROOF

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass

from the law, till all be fulfilled.

RULE II.

All scripture is necessary, and may be understood by a diligent application and study.

PROOF

2Ti 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee

wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of

God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

RULE III.

Nothing revealed in the scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering.

PROOF

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Mat 10:26-27 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and

hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jam 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that

wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

1Jo 5:13-15 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 14 And

this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we

desired of him.

RULE IV.

To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence, and if you can form your theory without a

contradiction, you cannot be in an error.

PROOF

Isa 28:7-29 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of

the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom

shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;

here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the

refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they

might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with

death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it

shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a

vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself

on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as

in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange

work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands

be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon

the whole earth. 23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech. 24 Doth the

plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? 25 When he hath

made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in

the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? 26 For his God doth instruct

him to discretion, and doth teach him. 27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing

instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with

a staff, and the cummin with a rod. 28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it,

nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. 29 This also cometh forth

from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces;

and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Pro 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Luk 24:27,44-45 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the

scriptures the things concerning himself… 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I

spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law

of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their

understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the

commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

2Pe 1:19,20 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as

unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

RULE V.

Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound it to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed or wisdom is my rule, not the Bible.

PROOFS

Psa 19:7-11 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure,

making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment

of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the

judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold,

yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy

servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Psa 119:97-105 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. 98 Thou through thy

commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more

understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more

than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I

might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103

How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy

precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my

feet, and a light unto my path.

Mat 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be

ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

1Co 2:12-16 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we

might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the

words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things

with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are

foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he

that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the

mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Eze 34:18-19 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread

down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must

foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your

feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in

yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mal 2:7-8 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for

he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many

to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

RULE VI.

God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables, and in this way the same things are oftentime revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures, and parables. If you wish to understand them, you must combine them all in one.

PROOFS

Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Hos 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by

the ministry of the prophets.

Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old

men shall dream dreams:

1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they

also lusted.

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,

that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;… 24 or Christ is

not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven

itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand… 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and

without a parable spake he not unto them:

RULE VII.

Visions are always mentioned as such.

PROOFS

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

RULE VIII.

Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy, to represent future things, times and events; such as mountains, meaning governments; beasts, meaning kingdoms. Waters,

meaning people. Lamp, meaning Word of God. Day, meaning year.

PROOFS

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and

became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place

was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole

earth…44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never

be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and

consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes

like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things…17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

RULE IX.

Parables are used as comparisons to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as figures by the subject and Bible.

Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

RULE X.

Figures sometimes have two or more different significations, as day is used in a figurative sense to represent three different periods of time.

PROOFS

1. Indefinite. Ecc 7:14

2. Definite, a day for a year. Ezek 4:6

3. Day for a thousand years. 2 Pet 3:8

If you put on the right construction it will harmonize with the Bible and make good sense, otherwise it will not.

RULE XI.

How to know when a word is used figuratively. If it makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature, then it must be understood literally, if not, figuratively.

PROOFS

Rev 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried,

travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Rev 17:3-7 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a

scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the

woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,

having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the

saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of

the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

RULE XII.

To learn the true meaning of figures, trace your figurative word through your Bible, and where you find it explained, put it on your figure, and if it makes good sense you need look no further, if

not, look again.

RULE XIII.

To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfilment of a prophecy: If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may

know that your history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfilment, then you must look for another event, or wait its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy

doth agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed.

PROOFS

Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

Isa 45:17-19 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;

God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a

dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

RULE XIV.

The most important rule of all is, that you must have faith. It must be a faith that requires a sacrifice, and, if tried, would give up the dearest object on earth, the world and all its desires, character, living, occupation, friends, home, comforts, and worldly honors. If any of these should hinder our believing any part of God's word, it would show our faith to be vain. Nor can we ever believe so long

as one of these motives lies lurking in our hearts. We must believe that God will never forfeit his word.

And we can have confidence that he that takes notice of the sparrow, and numbers the hairs of our head, will guard the translation of his own word, and throw a barrier around it, and prevent those who

sincerely trust in God, and put implicit confidence in his word, from erring far from the truth, though they may not understand Hebrew or Greek.

These are some of the most important rules which I find the word of God warrants me to adopt and follow, in order for system and regularity. And if I am not greatly deceived, in so doing, I have

found the Bible, as a whole, one of the most simple, plain, and intelligible books ever written, containing proof in itself of its divine origin, and full of all knowledge that our hearts could wish to

know or enjoy. I have found it a treasure which the world cannot purchase. It gives a calm peace in believing, and a firm hope in the future. It sustains the mind in adversity, and teaches us to be humble

in prosperity. It prepares us to love and do good to others, and to realize the value of the soul. It makes us bold and valiant for the truth, and nerves the arm to oppose error. It gives us a powerful weapon to break down Infidelity, and makes known the only antidote for sin. It instructs us how death will be conquered, and how the bonds of the tomb must be broken. It tells us of future events, and shows the preparation necessary to meet them. It gives us an opportunity to hold conversation with the King of kings, and reveals the best code of laws ever enacted.

This is but a faint view of its value; yet how many perishing souls treat it with neglect, or, what is equally as bad, treat it as a hidden mystery which cannot be known. Oh, my dear reader, make it

your chief study. Try it well, and you will find it to be all I have said. Yes, like the Queen of Sheba, you will say the half was not told you.

The divinity taught in our schools is always founded on some sectarian creed. It may do to take a blank mind and impress it with this kind, but it will always end in bigotry. A free mind will never be satisfied with the views of others. Were I a teacher of youth in divinity, I would first learn their capacity and mind. If these were good, I would make them study the Bible for themselves, and send

them out free to do the world good. But if they had no mind, I would stamp them with another's mind, write bigot on their forehead, and send them out as slaves!

[Musicman1228]

For the most part I agree with what Wm. Miller says. He was not specifically talking about prophecy but Bible study in general. The principle I use as defined above fit right into the Miller format. Don't reject these just because it is me making the suggestion. Allow them to stand or fall on their own merits.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, thanks again for posting these rules for bible study from William Miller. It has been a long time since I looked at them and it reminded me a little bit of when we first started our own study over 16 years ago.

And I too agree with these rules for the most part, but again, these rules are not meant specifically for prophecy and end time understanding. Since Miller has long been gone, one of the rules we found in Dan. 12:10 would overrule and do away with his understanding of end time prophecy.

Do you find anything wrong with what God said in Dan. 12:10? Don't you think this makes it clear that only the wise living in the last generation will understand end time prophecy correctly? This is NOT my or 'our' rule, this is God's rule. So how can you do away with this and come to the correct understanding?

Oh, and since the Moderator said it was ok to participate in all threads as long as we stick to the issue, I came back--hope you don't mind Stan. BTW, my view totally agrees with what I see the Adventist Church stands for. Saying this, I must point out that the Adventist Church I joined over 50 years ago did not have all of the fundamental beliefs it has today. Since these FB's (rules) are man made and we have been advised to follow Jesus instead of man made rules, I will go along with the words of Jesus.

[Guest]

Dan 12:10 doesn't say "only the wise living in the last generation will understand". You're adding your own words again.

I remember when you did the same thing the other night, and then got mad when somebody pointed it out.

[Dr. Rich]

Get over it Richard -- I was not quoting the bible--Dah? Now answer the question(s) if you can!

[Guest]

Can you not read? I did answer the question.

Dan 12:10 doesn't say "only the wise living in the last generation will understand". You're adding your own words again.

[Dr. Rich]

AND--read verse 9. See "...sealed up until the end of time.."? Would not be the time the last generation would be living on this earth? If the understanding is sealed up until then, well, it would be impossible for William Miller and EGW to correctly understand the end time events--correct?

[Guest]

It says "time of the end" and if you study Bible prophecy you will find that the time of the end started in 1844.

[Jodie]

Get over it Richard -- I was not quoting the bible--Dah? Now answer the question(s) if you can!

What does "Dah" mean?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Get over it Richard -- I was not quoting the bible--Dah? Now answer the question(s) if you can!

What does "Dah" mean?

I was going to ask the same thing. I think he's trying to say Duh.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, if someone adds or subtracts anything in the book of Revelation, what is it that God says will happen to them? And when will this event happen?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: "If you don't already have it, get the great and invaluable set of books, The Exhaustive Ellen G. White Commentary on Daniel and Revelation." Hmmm? Was that a commercial?

No. I'm telling someone what a great set of books they are. I wish you would study it too.

It was no more a commercial than when you speak of the book, Spirit of the Church, or of the radio program. Now those are commercials. By the way, I'd like to read that book and then we can discuss it on a thread. Can I get a copy from you or Wayfinder or MM? I have read parts of it online, but I'd prefer to have it in my hands if possible.

[John317]

Quote:

jasd: Umm, John317, you do err. You’ll note the above predicating quotes which elicited my response re “rules” in quotes.

You’ll also note that there was nothing in my post to indicate that the “rules” I addressed had anything to do with

FORUM RULES.

I do sincerely apologize to you. I had just posted a message about the rules and Richard has also just posted something about the rules of the forum, so when I saw your comments about the unimportance of the rules, I mistakenly took your words to be a reference to the forum rules. I thought at the time you could be talking about the rules of prophecy, and I should have stayed with that idea. Again, my sincere apologies, jasd. Please forgive.

Let me know what I could do to make it up to you. :-)

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: if someone adds or subtracts anything in the book of Revelation, what is it that God says will happen to them? And when will this event happen?

It's really referring to people who take things out of the any of God's word, not just out of the Acapolypse. And it warns that those who add to or subtract from God's word will receive of the plagues in John's book. If we think that it's only referring to the book of Revelation, people might think it's an invitation to take words out of, or add to, any of the other books of the Bible, but of course that would be a mistake.

Some people did add to, and take things out of, various books of the Bible, including Revelation, but they are dead and won't literally experience the seven last plagues.

[Jodie]

The Bible as the wholly inspired, inerrant 'word of God' from cover to cover is a fallacy; a man made, constructed idea that has no basis in Truth, designed to stop people from thinking for themselves in favor of relying on an immutable source so they don't have to. No one here on this forum or anywhere else has as yet been able to prove that this proposition is a direct, unalterable and independent TRUTH directly from the mouth of God Himself. It is and idea that is only based upon conjecture, hear-say, and unsubstantiated 'authority'.

Oh my Lord, I think I need new glasses! Did you just say that the Bible is a fallacy?! Seriously?? Do you honestly, in your heart, give so little credit to God that you think He doesn't have the power to control His own book?? He has kept His Book safe for thousands of years and drawn who knows how many people to Him with it. The Bible is the greatest love story ever written. How can you stand there and call yourself a Bondservant of God and in the next breath call down His INSPIRED Book????

(Rev 22:19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Musicman1228]

Jodie,

I know it is difficult to grasp but God had to allow Satan access to Scripture so that He could not be accused of being unfair.(Ref. the story of Job) Think back to the parable/prophecy of the Wheat and the Tares. Why didn't the Land owner set guards around His field and prevent the enemy from sowing Tares in among the Wheat. This He could easily have done, yet He didn't. Why? Because do have done so would have set unfair limits on the enemy in his opportunity to deceive people. Jesus specifically told His disciples that THEY were responsible as to whether they would be deceived or not (Matt.24:4).

It has never been the purpose of Jesus to take freedom of choice away from humanity. This is why God had to allow the enemy to plant lies (tares) in the same field as the truth (wheat). The field is the Bible, and it contains both truth and lies. If the Bible actually was the infallible, inerrant Word of God then we would not have the power of choice and free will. It is up to us to decide which is which. God could have easily not allow Satan access to the canon, but then Satan could have made a case that God had an unfair advantage in establishing the truth, and he would have been right. If the God had prevented the enemy from placing deceptions in the Bible then that would have completely eliminated any need for people to decide for themselves what is truth and what is not.

As uncomfortable as this makes me I can now understand why God had to allow this to happen. It would be so much simpler to say that everything that is in the Bible is the infallible, inerrant very words of God. But this is just what Satan wants us to think, because then he can work on deceiving people into believing lies as if they are the truth. He has been very successful at this, and look where the church is as a result; hundreds of separate 'Christian' denominations, all with a different set of doctrines, all saying that THEY have the truth and no one else. Jesus prayed to His Father that His disciples would be one even as He and the Father are one (John 17), so why did this not happen? Did not Jesus have the power to cause this to happen in spite of Satan's best efforts in opposition? Of course He did. So why didn't Jesus just 'make it so'. There are so many differing views of the gospel and so many different denominations because God cannot interfere with Satan's ability to plant lies/tares in HIS field. This is why it is up to US to KNOW THE TRUTH, because when we know the truth, that knowledge will set us free from bondage to sin.

God has not only given us the opportunity to decide for ourselves what is truth, He also makes it apparent what is truth and was is lies. He said that we are to take HIM at HIS word. He constantly refers to HIS words and HIS spirit, which means that there are also words and a spirit that is not of HIM. If we compare everything we know and have learned to what HE said then we will know the truth. This is why it is so important to understand that there is a difference between eyewitness testimony and second hand testimony concerning what Jesus said and did. Jesus told HIS disciples that THEY would remember everything that He told them so that their testimony would bring others to Him. This is important because there is testimony in the New Testament that is not given by eyewitnesses to His ministry, testimony that is second or third hand that may not be the same as what Jesus taught. This is why when I study Scripture I compare everything anyone says with what Jesus Himself said. If they match then I accept the alternate testimony; If they don't match then I discard that second hand testimony as being a lie.

God will lead us into ALL truth, as long as we do not put any other 'gods' before Him. Many people make other New Testament writers and even more modern writers equal to or even superior to the words and teachings of Jesus, which is the same as having other 'gods' before Him. This is very dangerous and can lead to people believing a lie as if it is the truth. We have the power through the words of Jesus to decide what is truth and what is not.

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: The Bible as the wholly inspired, inerrant 'word of God' from cover to cover is a fallacy; a man made, constructed idea that has no basis in Truth, designed to stop people from thinking for themselves in favor of relying on an immutable source so they don't have to.

Yet you believe that God kept the Old Testament pure. Why? Why did God keep error from contaminating the OT, yet, according to you, allow Satan to inspire his servants to write a large portion of the NT? It makes no sense. The OT was about Christ's future coming, and God kept it pure; but then you say that the part which explains Christ's coming to the world so people will be saved-- that part is largely full of error from the devil.

The Bible says God is consistent and doesn't change. Why then would He do make the OT pure truth, but allow the NT, which explains the Old, to be full of doctrines of devils?

I accept what Paul wrote:

"Anyone among you should acknowledge that what I am writing to you are the Lord's commandments. If anyone ignores this, he shall be ignored" (1 Cor. 14: 37, 38).

Quote:

Musicman1228: No one here on this forum or anywhere else has as yet been able to prove that this proposition is a direct, unalterable and independent TRUTH directly from the mouth of God Himself. It is and idea that is only based upon conjecture, hear-say, and unsubstantiated 'authority'.

But in the sense that you mean "prove," no one can prove that the OT is the inspired word of God. I have heard many people say the same thing you say here, but about the entire Bible. It is interesting that you elect to say it only about the New Testament.

I have no doubt in my own mind that the Bible is true and that's it's God's book, but I learned a long time ago that if someone doesn't WANT to believe it, you can't prove any of it to them. That's why Christ said whether a person believes or not depends on a person's will to know truth and obey it. The condition of a man's heart is the key to recongizing truth. Only God knows what that condition is. So Paul said let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

Quote:

JODIE: ...Do you honestly, in your heart, give so little credit to God that you think He doesn't have the power to control His own book?? He has kept His Book safe for thousands of years and drawn who knows how many people to Him with it. The Bible is the greatest love story ever written. How can you stand there and call yourself a Bondservant of God and in the next breath call down His INSPIRED Book????

You make a good point here, Jodie. Why would the same, unchangeable God do such a thing-- allow the Christian Greek scriptures to be filled to overflowing with falsehoods after He kept the Hebrew Scriptures safe and true for all those thousands of years?

Based on my study of the Bible, I don't believe for a moment that He did do it.

[jsm]

With all these distractions, taking up most of 5 pages, it is evident the devil does not want anyone here to read and comment on my blog in a helpful way.

Please limit discussion here to the reasonable Bible-based parameters presented for this thread. If moderators feel that is not a reasonable request, then I will seek other avenues for helpful dialog.

I have no illusions about knowing it all on this important end-time topic, and I very much want active and helpful dialog on specific portions of what I wrote.

I am very familiar with the DARCOM report, and know that many of our leading scholars believe more prayerful study and dialog is needed on areas such as Revelation 4-11. The limitations are that it must be Bible based and present events from a historicist perspective. My paper meets those qualifications.

Again, you can find what I wrote at:

endtimesurprise.blogspot.com

Please post your comments about the paper on this thread. Even a "yes" or "no" on whether you read it would be welcome.

Thanks,

Stan Mc (JSM)

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

I know it is difficult to grasp but God had to allow Satan access to Scripture so that He could not be accused of being unfair.(Ref. the story of Job) ...

It has never been the purpose of Jesus to take freedom of choice away from humanity. This is why God had to allow the enemy to plant lies (tares) in the same field as the truth (wheat). The field is the Bible, and it contains both truth and lies. If the Bible actually was the infallible, inerrant Word of God then we would not have the power of choice and free will.

Interesting theory, but if that is true, explain why the theory only applies to the scriptures written in Greek and not to those written in Hebrew? Don't you claim to believe that the Hebrew Bible is the infallible word of God? It pointed forward to the promise of the coming Seed, whereas the NT point back to it, and explains the meaning of it and announces the return of that Seed. Why would the promise be kept free and pure, but the explanation and announcement of its having come and of its future return be allowed to be largely corrupted?

By the way-- and I think you already know this-- "inerrant" is different from infallible. Inerrant refers to the belief that the Bible in its original documents contained no errors. "Infallible" refers to the Bible as the infallible guide to salvation but doesn't aver that the Bible is completely free of all error. The Seventh-day Adventist church believes in the former while it denies the latter.

[John317]

With all these distractions, taking up most of 5 pages, it is evident the devil does not want anyone here to read and comment on my blog in a helpful way.

Please limit discussion here to the reasonable Bible-based parameters presented for this thread. If moderators feel that is not a reasonable request, then I will seek other avenues for helpful dialog.

OK, good point, jsm. I will do that, and I join with you in asking everyone else to do the same.

If someone wants to continue discussing any of the other side-issues that have been brought up, they should create a separate thread.

Thanks, everyone!!

[Guest]

http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

I started reading your paper Stan. I am not through yet, but I like what I have read so far. I agree that this is a topic that we need to study, and be sure about. I will let you know more about what I think when I'm finished. Hopefully I will have something to contribute at that point.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John317, and yes, we will get you a book asap. The reason I asked these questions is because the plagues fall only upon the wicked who are living in the last generation and therefore the timing of this event is critical to understand Dan. 12:9-10. (BTW-this warning is only for the book of Revelation.) It is also critical in the correct understanding of Revelation.

[Dr. Rich]

I will let MM answer your question as to the OT, but your question is not quite correct. I have repeatedly written that Jesus Christ used the Law and the Prophets in His ministry and therefore verified it's truthfulness. Other scholars have pointed out errors here and there, but it is our opinion that since Jesus used and taught from these same scriptures, that He gave His stamp of approval on them. You can't say the same for the New Testament. It has nothing to do with what God allowed or did not allow. If Jesus verified it, then that is good enough for me.