Bible PROPHECY for the ENDtime

[Musicman1228]

John317,

Actually, you are absolutely wrong. Do some reading on the Councils of Nicea and Leodicea and see was is true. Do this from a purely historic approach. Constantine gathered the church Fathers and charged them with putting together a set of documents similar to the OT specifically for Christian consumption. Constantine did this for purely political reasons, as his empire was being torn apart by waring factions (both verbal and otherwise) that were Pagan, Jewish, and Christian. He had to figure out a way of bringing them all together and that was the purpose of the Councils. The only large scale church in existence in 325-6 CE was the Roman Church, which although in it's infancy was still a very powerful political force within the Empire of Rome.

As to getting off topic; I can't see where trying to find the truth of a situation or person is off topic at any time. If you continually quoted someone like Bennie Hinn or Billy Graham as an infallible source would you not expect someone to challenge your acceptance of their authority?

[jasd]

>>...if you will just humbly recognize your errors and seek for truth. The last long time prophecy in the Bible ended in 1844.<<

Dichotomy? Can you humbly revisit Daniel 9?—or are you pretty well set in your dogma?

Disabuse me should I err, but – AD 1844 is a non-prophetic and unBiblical date/number.

[Musicman1228]

jasd,

Just because you say it does not make it so. Prove it. And yes you are correct that 1844 is not a prophetic date - 1843 is. And I have looked at Daniel 9 (and 8, 10, 11, 12, 2) numerous times. I use a different method of interpretation than do most because I have found that the traditional Adventist method leaves too many unanswered questions, and incomplete interpretations. My method leaves no room for private interpretation, unlike the traditional Adventist method that allows a lot of leeway.

Question: if all of the numbers in prophecy are symbolic then why did God put those numbers in prophecy in the first place. If they have no literal meaning then why did God put them there-was it just to confuse us?

[jsm]

Richard, I understand the same on placing Daniel 12:1 with Rev 22:11. The seven last plagues will then demonstrate to the universe that no more people will choose be saved.

The Rev 3:10 "hour of temptation [trial]" to "try" people refers to a short period of test and trial just before that Rev 22:11 decree. I believe this takes place during the closing days of the Laodicean period, and is described in greater detail as the seven seals are broken and the seven trumpet calls to repentance are sounding.

Rev 22:11 may be compared with what John was told about the seventh trumpet: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God [His plan to save people] should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev 10:7.

This marks the close of probation, and is symbolized by the temple of God being opened in heaven to show "the ark of the covenant" as the standard for judgment. Rev 11:19. But this time there is no symbol of mercy by the Lamb, as when the temple was opened in Rev 4 & 5.

I know EGW applied Rev 11:19 to 1844 [GC 433]; but she also applied Rev 20:11-12 OUT OF context to the close of probation -- "the day of final decision...when men stand face to face with eternity" -- as well as IN context to the time after the 1,000 years when Jesus "executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people." COL 318, GC 666.

The symbols are PROPERLY used by her to illustrate a point; but this should not detract us from studying the clear time-line of events.

EGW applied the Rev 4 SETTING to the time when representatives of the universe gathered to welcome Jesus to heaven and to "glorify their King." But notice she applied THE SAME SETTING to a previous event when Satan accused God: "There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son," DA 834.

EGW used proper literary liberties to illustrate important points; but they must not detract us from placing those events in the direct Revelation context.

[John317]

Moderator to everyone:

If any more posts are made on this thread that do not relate directly to Bible Propehcy for the End-time, they will be edited or deleted.

If anyone wants to discuss the origins of the NT, or any perceived conflicts between the NT books and the rest of the Bible, or between Ellen White and the Bible, do it on a thread devoted to that topic.

Do not reply to this post on this thread. If you want to reply to me about it, send me a PM.

[Musicman1228]

From the context it is evident that the 7th Trumpet has not yet sounded. Probation is not closed for the SDA church (in my understanding the Kingdom of Heaven) much less the whole world. If probation closed in 1844 then why are we not in Heaven?

From the looks of it the 'coming as a thief' happens before the Great Tribulation starts; this is when the 144,000 are sealed. Does this make sense?

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: Rev. 7:1-4.

This text says the the Angel stops the 4 winds (Trumpets) from blowing so that the 144,000 can be sealed.

What precipitates the sealing of the 144,000?

[jsm]

MM, A complete Bible answer here on what precipitates the sealing of the 144,000 would take too much space; but I suggest first a comparison between many Bible prophecies—-including events described in two very similar prophecies: Isaiah 2-4 and Revelation 6-11. [Even this is probably too long a response]

Please pardon me for quoting from EGW. I would not do so if this were just for you; but for those of us who recognize her writings to be divinely inspired, it helps to reinforce what the Bible says. However, a comparison of just the Bible verses should be adequate.

Remember this reasonable statement: “It takes time to transform the human to the divine.” 2T 478. This alone will prevent many from being ready for the sealing. But multitudes of them will still be tried and found faithful. Revelation 7:9-17. We serve a wonderfully kind and loving God.

Isaiah said his Isaiah 2-4 prophecy is about what “shall come to pass in the latter days.” Isaiah 2:2. And EGW called it “his vision of the great judgment day.” COL 372.

“Those who spend their lives in laying up worldly treasure show less wisdom, less thought and care for their eternal well-being, than did the unjust steward for his earthly support. Less wise than the children of this world in their generation are these professed children of the light. These are they of whom the prophet declared, in his vision of the great judgment day, "A man shall cast the idols of his silver, and the idols of his gold [margin]; which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth." Isa. 2:20, 21.” COL 373.

She also referred to this as “those times of transition when the pride of man shall be laid low.” PK 727. These times of transition are symbolically referred to in Amos 9:13.

Now notice the comparison between the following two references:

Isaiah 2

“‘What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! [isaiah 2:19-21. Compare with Revelation 6:12-15] Then the words of Rev. 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.’ The whole of the eighteenth chapter of Revelation is a warning of what is coming on the earth.” LS 411.

Revelation 6

“When the fifth seal was opened, John the Revelator saw beneath the altar the company that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. After this came the scenes described in the eighteenth of Revelation…” EGW Manuscript Releases, vol 20, p 14.

Now compare sealing of the 144,000 with what takes AFTER the Isaiah 2 & 3 period of test & trial:

“And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” Isaiah 4:3-4.

And compare it with what takes place as the seventh seal is opened AFTER the trials in Revelation 6:

Revelation 8.1

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

8.2

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

8.3 [Compare verses 3 & 4 here with Leviticus 16:12-13 “before the Lord” on the Day of Atonement]

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

8.4

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

8.5 [Compare this verse with the Isaiah 2 washing away of filth “by the spirit of burning” and the Isaiah 6:6-7 sins purged by a coal from that altar of incense]

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

8.6 [Now notice the Loud Cry type response here and in other Bible verses below]

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Compare that with Isaiah 6.8

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isaiah 59.16 [Compare this verse with Revelation 5:2-6]

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

59.17 [Compare verses 17-19 with Revelation 6:1-17]

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

59.18

According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.

59.19

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

59.20

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in in Jacob, saith the LORD.

59.21 [This verse describes the seal of God, as in Isaiah 4:3-4 and Revelation 7:2-3, etc.]

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

60.1 [This and following verses describe the response by those sealed, as with the sevenfold trumpet calls of Revelation 8-11 during difficult times, and other references]

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

60.2

For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

60.3

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

60.4

Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

Please note that the four winds of Revelation 7:1 are held until 9:14, when general war, confusion, and distress throughout the world is symbolized—-yet “they did not repent.” Verses 20-21.

The 200,000,000 of verse 16 was the total world population at the time John saw the vision, and is symbolic of everyone in the world [besides God’s people] being involved here—-just before the close of probation as the seventh trumpet sounds. Revelation 10;7; 11:15.

[Musicman1228]

Wow, thanks jsm. This will take me a while to digest but I will probably have more questions later. Thanks for taking the time to give such a thoughtful answer.

[Guest]

If probation closed in 1844 then why are we not in Heaven?

Who said anything about probation closing in 1844? I thought you knew what adventists believe. Even though you don't believe it yourself.

Where did that question come from?

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228: From the context it is evident that the 7th Trumpet has not yet sounded. Probation is not closed for the SDA church (in my understanding the Kingdom of Heaven) much less the whole world. If probation closed in 1844 then why are we not in Heaven?

What do you understand will happen when the 7th Trumpet sounds? Do you believe that it sounds at the very end of time, or does it sound a "short time" before the end of the age?

I believe it began to sound in 1844 and that it alerts God's people that the end is very close and to be prepared for God's last-day judgments. The starting point for understanding the scene of the blowing of the seventh trumpet is Rev. 10: 5-7. The angel is telling God's people that the end time prophesied by Daniel 12: 5-10 will soon run its course and that God is about to deliver and vindicate his faithful saints and bring earth's history to a close.

I completely agree that probation has not yet closed for the SDA church, and of course, neither has it closed for the world. I believe it will close for those in the SDA church before it closes for the rest of the world, but this hasn't occurred yet, although I believe we are close to the time when it will happen. I think it's important for us to live every day before God as if it will be our last, yet plan as if we will live many more years on this earth. No one believes that probation closed for humanity in general in 1844. Probation did close for those who came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and believed the message of 1844 but who then afterwards rejected it as false.

[wayfinder]

John317, would you not agree, that in order to sound the seventh trumpet you would need to sound trumpets 1-6? My first question then is, what events leading up to 1844 could be connected with trumpets 1-6? Second question is the woes that are clearly connected to the last three trumpets these are clearly final warnings with the third woe being the end of salvation.

Revelation 10:5-7 says that when the seventh angel is about to sound, the mistery of God will be accomplished\finished. The proclaimation given at the sounding of the seventh trumpet is "the kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of God and of His Christ/Anointed. I am sure you would agree that the kingdom of the world is anything but defeated. The sounding of the seventh trumpet also contains a proclaimation that those who have the mark of the beast will receive the bowls of wrath. If the seventh trumpet sounded in 1844 is God going to resurect those who were Catholic and Protestant but have died, so that they will receive the promised judgment for those who have the mark?

This is but a fraction of the evidence there is to prove without a doubt that not only has the seventh trumpet not sounded, but none of the trumpets have sounded, not has the censer been cast down as yet. The casting down of the censer immediately precedes the sounding of the first trumpet.

[Guest]

If the seventh trumpet sounded in 1844 is God going to resurect those who were Catholic and Protestant but have died, so that will receive the promised judgment for those who have the mark?

No wayfinder. There are no dead people with the mark of the beast. Nobody has the mark of the beast yet. Not until the enforcement of the false sabbath, will anyone have it. When the state says "this is what you have to do", then people will have to make a choice. And the true Sabbath will be brought to the forefront.

[John317]

Quote:

Wayfinder: ...The sounding of the seventh trumpet also contains a proclaimation that those who have the mark of the beast will receive the bowls of wrath. If the seventh trumpet sounded in 1844 is God going to resurect those who were Catholic and Protestant but have died, so that they will receive the promised judgment for those who have the mark?

Interesting thought, Wayfinder. What do you find in Scripture that causes you to say the above?

When do you understand the "mark of the beast" actually is formed or takes place? What do you believe this "mark" will be?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Disabuse me should I err, but – AD 1844 is a non-prophetic and unBiblical date/number.

>>Just because you say it does not make it so. Prove it.<<

Glad you asked, as I’ll set forth a greatly abbreviated thesis – addressing a coupla things, following...

>>And yes you are correct that 1844 is not a prophetic date - 1843 is.<<

What I said re AD 1844 applies also to AD 1843.

>>And I have looked at Daniel 9 (and 8, 10, 11, 12, 2) numerous times.<<

Yet, you arrive at, basically, the same understanding of the book of Daniel, as do the Expositors of the .Org. I remind:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book/(cepher), [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

One notices that it is Gd who is speaking in Daniel 12:4 with the specific utilization of a word meaning book – not vision, dream, interpretation, etc – or any portion of same. Moreover, He has delineated the qualifiers:

“...to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

The qualifiers are two, with a conjugal conjunction determining the temporal parameters of the clauses. Those ‘qualifiers’ eliminate such times as half a millennium ago when Protestors first sought to ‘wrest’ that which Gd had sealed; that is,

the book of Daniel.

Until such time as the two qualifiers were/are met, any attempt to interpret the book of Daniel was/is, ipso facto, wresting Writ. Should anyone seek to presently exposit Daniel,

he or she must do so by first rejecting almost the entirety of the catalog of dogmas hitherto ‘developed’ (by even the 'greatest lights’ of any .org).

[jasd]

Tell me, was knowledge increased at the time of the Reformation?—when doctors had no concept of germs and their default procedure was to bleed the patient and prescribe ‘booze’ – for themselves... Fast forward, it was only recently that I pointed out on these boards that EGW, for all practical purposes, found it necessary that a horse be hitched to buggy so that she might “run to and fro”. Yet it was/is asserted that the book of Daniel was ‘unsealed’ – yielding very peculiar ‘readings’. However, that being said,

and the above re EGW being factual, I stipulate – that she lived upon the cusp of Daniel’s ‘unsealing’.

Re the terminus a quo as delineated in

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

It is impossible to find – in either Holy Writ or in historical fact – an order or commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until such time as it was given unto Nehemiah to ‘build’ Jerusalem; the decree of Ezra 6 notwithstanding – which addressed only the rebuilding and/or the refurbishment of the Temple.

Therefore, 457 BC is a premature reckoning – and problematic – or outright falsity?

All expositions re the seventy-weeks prophecy incorporating the year 457 BC as the initiating terminus – reinforces that Gd had, indeed, sealed the book!

>>Question: if all of the numbers in prophecy are symbolic then why did God put those numbers in prophecy in the first place. If they have no literal meaning then why did God put them there-<<

Per the above, I believe that the “numbers in prophecy” are twofold; one, they are “symbolic” and they are “literal” – depending...

>>...was it just to confuse us?<<

“confuse us”?—nah, we’s natural born confused a’ready! Trouble is, getting’ deconfused; like, phffttt!

[wayfinder]

John317, I will give as brief and concise an explanation as I can. I know that you do not as yet agree with my understanding, but here is why I understand the way I do.

The kingdom of heaven is the SDA people (corporate body). The purpose and function of the KOH (Kingdom of Heaven) is to proclaim the truth to the nations (this gospel of the kingdom...). The KOH have two groups, the priests (144,000) and the kingdom (saints/5 wise bridesmaids). The work starts with the endtime Elijah type person (see Matthew 17:10,11). This person is also called the trustworthy and sensible bondservant (Matthew 24:42-51). The bondservants are the 144,000/priests and are being prepared by the Spirit of Truth through the Head of the Household/Elijah type. When the Master comes like a thief in the night to His bondservants/144,000 He finds them ready. He them sends them to awaken the sleeping KOH (10 bridesmaids), this is the 1335 days of Daniel 12. The kingdom was inaugurated in 1843/44 with the starting of the functioning of the temple in heaven on behalf of the KOH. Jesus ministry, on behalf of His kingdom, continues until the door to the marriage feast is shut and the censer, which now has no further use in heaven, is cast to the earth and the judgment of the nations begins. The seven trumpets awaken the nations through devastating catastrophes. The trumpet judgments are redemptive and redemption ends with the sound of the seventh trumpet. The 24 elders make a statement at this time, which although does not state "those with the mark" it is clear when they say and the time came for judging the dead. The dead are not necessarily those who are no longer breathing, but those who have the mark but have not received their execution. We see later on in Revelation the statement, I saw the dead great and small standing before the throne..., it is clear that those who have received the seal of the god of death are in fact dead, although they are technically alive, much like the dead in Christ are asleep and not dead.

I have more to say, but will stop here.

[jsm]

EGW SAID THE SEVEN TRUMPETS ARE ALL IN THE FUTURE

For those of us who believe EGW was inspired by God, the following will be of interest here.

She made a future application to both Seals & trumpets PLUS she shows the progression through the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven last plagues:

“Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth.” EGW in Maranatha 284.

“Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest sre right upon us.” EGW in Maranatha 257.

EGW also said the Revelation 5 book will be unsealed (chapter 6) in the soon to come “great judgment day.”

“When Pilate washed his hands, saying, ‘I am innocent of the blood of this just person,’ the priests joined with the ignorant mob in declaring passionately, ‘His blood be on us, and on our children.’ Matt. 27:24, 25.

Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah.” COL 293-4.

“Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, ‘His blood be on us, and on our children.’ That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

“Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins!

“Terribly will that prayer be fulfilled in the great judgment day.” DA 739.

Events while the book John saw is being unsealed by Christ are also described in the Isaiah 2 vision that EGW called “his vision of the great judgment day.” See below and compare with the last line in the above quotation.

“Those who spend their lives in laying up worldly treasure show less wisdom, less thought and care for their eternal well-being, than did the unjust steward for his earthly support. Less wise than the children of this world in their generation are these professed children of the light. These are they of whom the prophet declared, in his vision of the great judgment day, ‘A man shall cast the idols of his silver, and the idols of his gold [margin]; which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.’ Isa. 2:20, 21.” COL 372.

Here are more visions of “the great judgment day” when, as stated above, the Revelation 5 book will be unsealed by Christ:

PK.726.001

In visions of the great judgment day the inspired messengers of Jehovah were given glimpses of the consternation of those unprepared to meet their Lord in peace.

PK.726.002

"Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof; . . . because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate. . . . The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth." Isaiah 24:1-8.

PK.726.003

"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. . . . The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate." "The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." Joel 1:15-18, 12.

PK.726.004

"I am pained at my very heart," Jeremiah exclaims as he beholds the desolations wrought during the closing scenes of earth's history. "I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled." Jeremiah 4:19, 20.

PK.727.001

"The loftiness of man shall be bowed down," declares Isaiah of the day of God's vengeance, "and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols He shall utterly abolish. . . . In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth." Isaiah 2:17-21.

PK.727.002

Of those times of transition, when the pride of man shall be laid low, Jeremiah testifies: "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 4:23-26; 30:7.

PK.727.003

The day of wrath to the enemies of God is the day of final deliverance to His church.

“The tables of stone are hidden by God, to be produced in the great judgment-day, just as he wrote them.” EGW in RH 3/26/1908.

“In his vision of the great judgment day, Isaiah witnesses the consternation of those unprepared to meet their Lord in peace. ‘The day of the Lord is at hand,' he exclaims; 'it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: and they shall be afraid.’ Isa. 13:6-8.” EGW in RH 7/1/1915.

This information is in support of my paper at http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/

which I encourage you to read.

[John317]

Your paper looks interesting. I'll read it Sunday.

Meantime, could you give me the reference for where Ellen White said that the seven trumpets are all still future?

[Musicman1228]

Given that the first 6 of the 7 Trumpets are redemptive we must ask the question "Redemptive for whom?" Can these Trumpets as redemptive events do anything for people that are already dead? The dead cannot be redeemed from anything-their probation closed when they died, their decision time having come to and end when they died. Therefore, even if there were events in history that could be said to have fulfilled all of the requirements of the prophecy (there being no evidence that this occurred) just the fact that they are historical fulfillments disqualifies them as being true fulfillments.

The 7 Trumpets of Revelation begin AFTER the casting down of the Censer (Rev.8:5) and historically we have not seen where there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake that affected the entire world. So IF the Censer has not been cast down to earth and therefore if the 1st of the Seven Trumpets has not yet occurred we can with complete confidence say that the 7th Trumpet has not sounded.

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev. 11:15.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Rev. 11:19.

"Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement." GC-433.

Here EGW says that the 7th Trumpet sounded in 1844. According to Scripture this is impossible. She also does not mention, nor is there any historic evidence that any of the physical manifestations that accompany the sounding of the 7th Trumpet occurred in 1844. Ellen White was speaking here in the capacity of a prophet, acknowledged by herself and the SDA church. We have been told that if a prophet makes one error in a prophecy that person cannot be a true prophet of God. You must decide if this is true for EGW.

[jsm]

Uriah Smith wrote: “The blowing of the trumpets by the seven angels comes as a complement to the prophecy of Daniel 2 and 7, beginning with the breaking up of the old Roman Empire into its ten divisions. In the first four trumpets, we have a description of the special events which marked Rome's fall.” D&R 475.

I see no reference to trumpets or the number 7 in Daniel 2 and 7.

But we do see 7 TRUMPETS in Joshua 6 used to warn those in Jericho of their coming doom during the days before the walls fell. As with the ark in Noah’s day, the only place of safety in Jericho was Rehab's house. The only place of safety during the end-time trumpet period is to leave spiritual Babylon. Revelation 18:4.

JERICHO:

“And seven priests shall bear SEVEN TRUMPETS of rams’ horns before the ark….Then seven priests bearing SEVEN TRUMPETS of rams’ horns before the ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets. And the armed men went before them. But the rear guard came after the ark of the LORD, while the priests continued blowing the trumpets.” Joshua 6:1, 13.

Compare that with the warning TRUMPET calls in Ezekiel 33:1-8

Ezekiel 33: 1 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

What EGW wrote below is in line with this, and not with what Uriah Smith wrote:

“Solemn EVENTS before us are YET TO TRANSPIRE. TRUMPET AFTER TRUMPET is to be sounded." EGW in Maranatha 257.

“REVELATION 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD revealed. The SEVEN ANGELS stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS. The Lord was going forth [as with the flood and the destruction of Jericho] TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.” EGW in Maranatha 284.

The great final destruction [AFTER the seven trumpets] comes with the seven last plagues [as people continually blaspheme God and do not repent] and the second coming of Jesus [when all who remain are cast into a lake of fire]. Revelation 16:9, 11, 21; 19:19-21.

[jsm]

EGW wrote: “REVELATION 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD revealed. EGW in Maranatha 284.

Note the contrast between that and what Uriah Smith wrote:

“The seven seals represent events of a religious character, and contain the history of the church from the opening of the Christian Era to the second coming of Christ...If the whiteness of the first horse denoted the purity of the gospel in the period which that symbol covers, the redness of the second horse would signify that in this period that original purity began to be corrupted….[third seal] A black horse--the very opposite of white! A period of great darkness and moral corruption in the church must be denoted by this symbol.” D&R 425-428.

I understand James White had many lengthy and heated discussions with Uriah Smith over differences in the way they understood Bible prophecies. EGW finally advised her husband not to continue because the discussions were not productive and were harmful to his health.

We need to compare Scriptures on this and other Bible topics:

Zechariah 6:1-5

 1 Then I turned and raised my eyes and looked, and behold, four chariots were coming from between two mountains, and the mountains were mountains of bronze. 2 With the first chariot were red HORSES, with the second chariot black HORSES, 3 with the third chariot white HORSES, and with the fourth chariot dappled HORSES—strong steeds. 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”

5 And the angel answered and said to me, “These are four spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth."

The word "spirit" is translated from “ruach” which also means "wind" and the same phrase translated here as the “four spirits of heaven” is translated in Daniel 8:8 as “the four WINDS of heaven.”

So the four winds had already begun to blow in Revelation 6:1-8 before the angels in Revelation 7:1-3 were seen holding them until the 144,000 are sealed. They are not fully released until just before the close of probation. Revelation 9:13-15. John then again sees "HORSES in the vision." Verse 17.

In commenting on Zechariah 6, EGW wrote: “The four winds are represented as an angry horse seeking to break loose and rush over the face of the whole earth, bearing death and destruction in its path.” 3SM 409.

Compare this with the following Bible verses:

“The snorting of HIS HORSES was heard from Dan.

      The whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of His strong ones;

      For they have come and devoured the land and all that is in it,

      The city and those who dwell in it.” Jeremiah 8:16.

“O LORD, were You displeased with the rivers,

      Was Your anger against the rivers,

      Was Your wrath against the sea,

      That You rode on YOUR HORSES,

      Your chariots of salvation?

       9 Your BOW was made quite ready;

      Oaths were sworn over Your arrows.

      You divided the earth with rivers.

       10 The mountains saw You and trembled;

      The overflowing of the water passed by.

      The deep uttered its voice,

      And lifted its hands on high.

       11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation;

      At the light of Your arrows they went,

      At the shining of Your glittering spear.

       12 You marched through the land in indignation;

      You trampled the nations in anger.

       13 You went forth for the salvation of Your people,

      For salvation with Your Anointed.” Habakkuk 3:8-13.

==========================

Here are more EGW statements in support of my paper at http://endtimesurprise.blogspot.com/ which I encourage all to read.

“THE FIFTH CHAPTER OF REVELATION needs to be closely studied. IT IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE to those who shall act a part in the work of God FOR THESE LAST DAYS. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. Those who have permitted their minds to become beclouded in regard to what constitutes sin are fearfully deceived. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting WHEN GOD PRONOUNCES JUDGMENT upon the children of men.” 9T 267.

“You have made little effort to become a loyal and intelligent Christian. How, then, will you be prepared to pass THE GRAND REVIEW, where all your deeds and words, and the inmost thoughts of your heart, will be laid open BEFORE THE GREAT JUDGE AND THE ASSEMBLED SAINTS AND ANGELS?” 4T 116. [see Revelation 4]

“Could we see all the activity of human instrumentality, as it appears before God, we would see that only the work accomplished by much prayer, which is sanctified by the merit of Christ, will stand THE TEST of THE JUDGMENT. When THE GRAND REVIEW shall take place, then shall ye return and discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.” EGW in RH 7/4/1893.

“SOON there is to be A GRAND REVIEW, in which every soul who is seeking to perfect a Christian character must bear THE TEST of God's searching questions: Have you set an example that others were safe in following? Have you watched for souls as those that must give an account?” EGW in YI 11/21/1911.

“A large work is to be done by fathers and mothers, and both should act their individual part in preparing their children for THE GRAND REVIEW OF THE JUDGMENT.” EGW in Bible Training School 12/1/1911.

[Dr. Rich]

jsm, are you aware of a little book James White wrote concerning Matthew 24? He said that God will make known what is going to happen and when to the servants living in the last generation. I happen to agree with him.

So, if these servant proved a differing view from what others taught and wrote about who are now dead, don't you think we should be checking these things out to see if they could be true or not?

[John317]

Quote:

jasd: Tell me, was knowledge increased at the time of the Reformation?&#151;when doctors had no concept of germs and their default procedure was to bleed the patient and prescribe &#145;booze&#146; &#150; for themselves... Fast forward, it was only recently that I pointed out on these boards that EGW, for all practical purposes, found it necessary that a horse be hitched to buggy so that she might &#147;run to and fro&#148;. Yet it was/is asserted that the book of Daniel was &#145;unsealed&#146; &#150; yielding very peculiar &#145;readings&#146;.

The context of Daniel's referencce to an increase in knowledge doesn't have primarily to do with general knowledge but with knowledge of the book of Daniel and the prophecies. This knowledge certainly saw a dramatic increase in the early and middle 1800s and it has continued right up to our day. In the days of the Reformation, they had little interest or knowledge of the books of Daniel and Revelation. In fact, Martin Luther and John Calvin didn't consider them important. Luther didn't accept Revelation as part of the canon, and Calvin admitted he didn't understand it, and therefore he wrote nothing about it in his commentaries on the Bible.

The fact that Ellen White used a horse is irrelevant to the topic. The phrase in Daniel about running to and fro has really to do with people being busy to understand the book of Daniel.

I do, believe, though, that in a secondary sense, those verses also indicate that there will be a great increase in general knowledge and in world travel at the time of the end. That also has already been fulfilled and continuing to be fulfilled. The increase in knowledge began happening during the Renaissance and continued on into the Age of Enlightenment. We are still a part of, and greatly influenced by, those periods. But the point is that one does not need to be only alive at the time these developments were at that apex in order to experience the benefit of the knowledge of the prophecies. All along the way, various people who were open to the leading of the Spirit of God gained more and more insight into the prophecies. Ellen White was certainly one of these, despite the fact that she depended on a horse for transportation.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ... are you aware of a little book James White wrote concerning Matthew 24?

What's the name of the book and is it available online? I know some of his writings are.

Do you agree with most of what James White wrote in it?

[John317]

Quote:

jsm:

But we do see 7 TRUMPETS in Joshua 6 used to warn those in Jericho of their coming doom during the days before the walls fell. As with the ark in Noah&#146;s day, the only place of safety in Jericho was Rehab's house. The only place of safety during the end-time trumpet period is to leave spiritual Babylon. Revelation 18:4.

JERICHO:

&#147;And seven priests shall bear SEVEN TRUMPETS of rams&#146; horns before the ark&#133;.Then seven priests bearing SEVEN TRUMPETS of rams&#146; horns before the ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets. And the armed men went before them. But the rear guard came after the ark of the LORD, while the priests continued blowing the trumpets.&#148; Joshua 6:1, 13.

Compare that with the warning TRUMPET calls in Ezekiel 33:1-8

Ezekiel 33: 1 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 &#147;Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: &#145;When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman&#146;s hand.&#146;

What EGW wrote below is in line with this, and not with what Uriah Smith wrote:

;Solemn EVENTS before us are YET TO TRANSPIRE. TRUMPET AFTER TRUMPET is to be sounded." EGW in Maranatha 257.

;REVELATION 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD revealed. The SEVEN ANGELS stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS. The Lord was going forth [as with the flood and the destruction of Jericho] TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.&#148; EGW in Maranatha 284.

Good and very interesting post. Please do write more on this subject. For instance, when did the 7th trumpet begin sounding?

Should we expect to see, as Musicman suggested, "evidence... of the physical manifestations that accompany the sounding of the 7th Trumpet"?

How can Bible students know for sure when these trumpets sound or have sounded?