Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[karl]

To your statement I reply: Wow, can you imagine people actually that loving, that they themselves would be concerned about not causing others to stumble?

.... Make up, jewelry, tight pants, skirts that are way too high, hair that must have cost more than what they give for an offering lol, I mean it has gotten out of control.

We use the A.C.E. curriculum in our little church school. Accelerated Christian Education. They have a website if you want to check them out. Baptist outfit. My wife is at a school convention in Springfield, MO, this week. She mentioned to me before she left that she had to be very selective choosing her clothing for the trip because their dress code is stricter than her personal dress standards. She said, "When I get back, I'm giving some of this stuff away. I want to dress in such a way that I will bring no reproach on my church no matter who I'm with or who sees me around town."

I support her in that. (And I'm sooo grateful to be a guy.)

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

so youre pretty much going on others understanding of what that verse means....

then there is one big problem in all the churches.

seems pretty ridiculous to me that a wife would be expected to "learn" from her husband. what if hubby couldnt care less about the Lord? what would she be learning then?

from what i read in the ot God never expected women to answer to their husbands...

ill let you review the angel and manoahs wife. strangely the angel felt no need to give any directions to hubby. both times he appeared to the woman, and in the end told "let her", not "see to it that she"...i think we get a better picture of what God expects taking all the biblical situations into account and not just a couple of "proof" texts.

Manoah's wife along with Elizabeth and Mary were given specific instructions first for a reason. Might it be that they are the ones carrying the child and to them falls the responsibility of raising their children in the way of the Lord until that child is either called of God or married? Read Proverbs 31 and see the role of a godly woman, you see nothing there about ministering to other men, just to her household and husband, why is that? Hopefully I’ll be able to explain this in answer to your other concern.

If you find it ridiculous that a wife should learn from her husband then I believe you have misunderstood what Paul is saying. So I will try to help you see it.

I will explain to you one of the reasons why Paul says this. Let me give you an example. Let's say my wife, whom I love and study with, goes up to some other man and asks him what a certain verse means.

If a woman asks me something like this she has told me one of several things; she doesn't trust her husband, she doesn't confide in her husband, she doesn't care about what he says, her husband is not a spiritual man, he is not knowledgeable about the scriptures, she is a rebellious woman or she is immature in spiritual matters. One thing is sure, she has disrespected her husband and that is shameful. Out of love for her husband she should give him the privilege of leading her to a closer relationship with God. If he cannot find the answer to her question then they should study together. Paul is saying this in order to strengthen the relationships of marriage and keep harmony and order in the church. Now you have understanding of this verse 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

And if she's not married then let her speak to her father if at all possible, then her brother, and of course the pastor's wife, then the pastor. This wise counsel also keeps the pastor available to serve in more important matter instead of answering all the questions of the people in church.

Finally, these verses I will leave for you to discover and if you don't understand them, ask your husband. lol (just kidding)

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

I can explain that if someone wants to know what I have found this means.

In Christ and His service,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

To your statement I reply: Wow, can you imagine people actually that loving, that they themselves would be concerned about not causing others to stumble?

.... Make up, jewelry, tight pants, skirts that are way too high, hair that must have cost more than what they give for an offering lol, I mean it has gotten out of control.

We use the A.C.E. curriculum in our little church school. Accelerated Christian Education. They have a website if you want to check them out. Baptist outfit. My wife is at a school convention in Springfield, MO, this week. She mentioned to me before she left that she had to be very selective choosing her clothing for the trip because their dress code is stricter than her personal dress standards. She said, "When I get back, I'm giving some of this stuff away. I want to dress in such a way that I will bring no reproach on my church no matter who I'm with or who sees me around town."

I support her in that. (And I'm sooo grateful to be a guy.)

[Denise]

Originally Posted By: Norman

To your statement I reply: Wow, can you imagine people actually that loving, that they themselves would be concerned about not causing others to stumble?

.... Make up, jewelry, tight pants, skirts that are way too high, hair that must have cost more than what they give for an offering lol, I mean it has gotten out of control.

We use the A.C.E. curriculum in our little church school. Accelerated Christian Education. They have a website if you want to check them out. Baptist outfit. My wife is at a school convention in Springfield, MO, this week. She mentioned to me before she left that she had to be very selective choosing her clothing for the trip because their dress code is stricter than her personal dress standards. She said, "When I get back, I'm giving some of this stuff away. I want to dress in such a way that I will bring no reproach on my church no matter who I'm with or who sees me around town."

I support her in that. (And I'm sooo grateful to be a guy.)

Hi Karl,

When I read this, I thought WOW...the Muslim dresses are modest, and now the Baptist?! We should be the head and not the tail. The Muslims and Baptists are ahead of us! I have just recently been studying on dress reform, and we as Adventists are not living up to what God wants as a people. There's so much to dress on understanding why...like our health benefits from it...the PHYSIOLOGY of dress reform...it's such a beautiful message. This also affects our spirituality. It's not good to get off the topic, but I wanted to respond to you when I seen this. This would be a good discussion on another thread.

Here are some links you may be interested in listening to. The first is by Dr. Collins on the PHYSIOLOGY of dress reform. When you get to the page, look for the MP3 link for dress physiology and click on it. There's also other other things you can look at as well, such as power point on this. The lecture on this on MP3 is excellent!

http://www.temcat.com/07-Health-Secrets-Sem/Dress-Reform/Dress-Index.html

Here's an awesome sermon by Dwayne Lemon on Dress. It is a powerful sermon. Here's the link for this:

http://www.thefinalgeneration.org/index.cfm/media/sermon/Dress%20Reform

And here's a website your wife may be interested in on dress:

http://www.movingtowardmodesty.com/index.htm

[Daryl]

Reading the new posts in this thread since I has here last and want to say that a good point was made in this post.

I will need to go and check out the link to compare that with his recent message.

I went to the Amazing Facts website. Doug has been preaching the same thing for at least 15 years. Here is a link to an article he published in 1995:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/Publications...x-in-Jesus.aspx

At the end of the article, he says that "Jesus was following His own Word by ordaining only men. Of course, some will argue that He was merely conforming to popular customs and traditions of the day." But the truth is that, in Christ's time, most of the pagan religions had women priests. God's people were the exception.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: John317

I have no doubt that God calls women to the ministry and to teach and preach. Of course He does. But that is different from God's calling women to becomes pastors and elders of local congregations.

John,

When I was growing up in the church, I remember being taught that we did not call our pastors Reverend because they were not to be revered above any other member in good standing. Instead, we referred to them as Elder due to the responsibilities put upon them by their calling. Therefore, as least the way I understood this, there was no "headship" involved in the pastorate. If my understanding is correct, your points based on "headship" are not applicable. On the other hand, if my understanding is erroneous, would you please clarify it, biblically?

Agape`

Wayne, I believe you hit the nail squarely on its head!

[WayneV]

Yeah, Tom, I have always understood that we are one body with Christ as the "head".

Agape`

[Tom Wetmore]

Another major part of the problem is that we have elevated and turned the terms used to describe functions and functionaries in the NT into sanctimonious titles of church hierarchy and entitlement. That was definitely not their meaning to the First Century Christian believers. They were using ordinary terms and words from everyday life to describe who does what in the church. Those words were common terms used in First Century secular society for everyday sort of functions and functionaries of who does what in the community.

A sampling with a current English equivalents (in parenthesis is the typical religious term):

poimen (pastor) = shepherd

euaggelistes (evangelist) = good newscaster

apostolos (apostle) = courier

mathetes (disciple) = student, learner, apprentice

episkopos (bishop) = supervisor, boss

presbyteros (elder) = assemblyman, councilman, legislator

hyperetes (minister) = servant

diakonos (minister, deacon) = servant, attendant, assistant

[olger]

from what i read in the ot God never expected women to answer to their husbands...

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement" (1 Peter 3:5,6).

It would be difficult to find a more contradictory statement, but..

blessings,

oG

[Gregory Matthews]

There are a number of posts here that suggest that people whko are ordained should be pastors of congregations, they should baptize and mors. They then go on to point out the EGW never pastored a local congregation and never baptized anyone.

NOTE: As I have stated, Doug Batchelor got it right when he suggested that the real issue is role and function. It is not ordaination itself.

It might be well for those who suggest the above to review their denominaitonal history:

1) A. L. White, the grandson of EGW was an ordained minister. Why was he ordained? [The answer to that is that he was ordained to carry on the work of EGW in the role of the White Estate.] Did he fill the roles and functions that I have listed above? [The answer will be found in our history. I will leave it for you to discover.]

2) Check back into the earlier days of our denominational emphasis on missions when we sent people everywhere to begin national churches. Who were the people that we ordained that did not go in the rold of pastoring congregations and baptizing?

[Gregory Matthews]

3. As I may have said before: When did we elect a female as a Conference President? [We did and it was not EGW. She certainly played a role of authority over the men who worked under her as local pastors.]

4. Are any of you going to tell us that God is not clearly leading in the SDA Chruch in China where female pastors are leading local congregations that together have thousands of members? What about the fact that in China female pastors are successfully begining church plants that grow into congregations larger than many of our congregations in the US? [NOTE: These Chinese women are formally recognized by the General Conference as ordained SDA Clergy.]

[olger]

I like HMS Richards' response to a question about women as pastors.

"As soon as we run out of men." End of discussion.

To use the abstract example of China as a normative model for the world church is highly subjective. The Bible is clear on the roles & relations of men & women. That is why WO supporters often use such unusual arguments to debate their cause. If it seems like they are stretchiing....well....they... are...

They have to.

blessings,

oG

[olger]

I like Leslie Hardinge's statement to me in Philadelphia about WO.

"The Bible is against it and it's not the kind of book that changes."

blessings,

oG

[Woody]

Gregory ... that's a sockdolager for sure.

[WayneV]

The Bible is clear on the roles & relations of men & women.

olger,

Perhaps you would be kind enough to give us your thoughts on this post and the post that immediately follows it, since John317 seems to be on vacation. Thanks for your consideration.

Agape`

[John317]

What do pastors and elders do.....preach and teach!

God calls women to preach and teach!

So they are one and the same in the eyes of God!!

What does the Bible say is the work of the pastors and elders of the church, besides preaching and teaching?

The primary responsibility of officers of the church-- bishops, elders, pastors-- is to "rule," or govern, or manage the church. See 1 Tim. 3: 4-5; 5: 17. In other words, the pastors and elders are the governing authority over the church.

Also compare 1 Peter 5: 2-5; Hebews 13: 17. "Obey your leaders and submit to them."

Compare the above with 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33b-36.

The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

[Tom Wetmore]

...The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

Then why would Paul specifically refer to Phoebe as a leader for the believers in Rome to listen to and do as she instructed? It has been suggested that she was the first bishop of Rome.

This fact of Phoebe's position as a minister and leader of the church in Rome was recognized in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in an editorial published by James White way back at the beginning of the Advent movement.

You have to ignore the women that Paul recognized and affirmed as his co-laborers, etc.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: I have no doubt that God calls women to the ministry and to teach and preach. Of course He does. But that is different from God's calling women to becomes pastors and elders of local congregations.

Quote:

WayneV:

When I was growing up in the church, I remember being taught that we did not call our pastors Reverend because they were not to be revered above any other member in good standing. Instead, we referred to them as Elder due to the responsibilities put upon them by their calling. Therefore, as least the way I understood this, there was no "headship" involved in the pastorate. If my understanding is correct, your points based on "headship" are not applicable. On the other hand, if my understanding is erroneous, would you please clarify it, biblically?

The reason we don't call our pastors "Reverend" is that it's a word that applies to God, not to any human being.

Pastors and elders and other church officers are not above anyone else in terms of salvation or before the law of God, but they are certainly above others in the church according to the New Testament when it comes to authority and responsibility within the church body.

See 1 Tim. 5: 17; 3: 4-5; 1 Peter 5: 2-5; Hebrews 13: 17; Acts 20: 28; Eph. 4: 11.

They have the authority to rule, or lead, or govern, or managage the church. They are to be overseers and to shepherd the church of God. These are not responsibilites delegated to every member of the church, but they are the work of the pastor-teachers, elders, and bishops.

[Neil D]

I found this article from Mike Tucker....it's worth a read...

Women in Ministry (Second Response to Batchelor Sermon)

Posted March 24th, 2010 by mdtucker

Editor's note: This is the second article in response to the Doug Batchelor sermon. It's provided by Mike Tucker, Speaker/Director for Faith for Today. Click Here to read the first response by David Newman, editor of Adventist Today and senior pastor of New Hope Seventh-day Adventist Church.

By Mike Tucker

In a recent sermon, Pastor Doug Batchelor presented nearly 30 arguments in opposition to women in ministry. While I count Pastor Batchelor as a personal friend, we have divergent views on this particular issue. In the space allotted this response, I will briefly address Batchelor's assertion that those who support women in ministry do so without biblical support. In fact, Batchelor states that 100% of our support is due to pressure from the feminist movement. He also states that there is no historical precedent within Adventism for women in ministry.

After listening to Pastor Batchelor's sermon, I am concerned with his use of Scripture; particularly in terms of hermeneutics, the rules interpreters follow to understand and apply the Bible. For a more complete discussion of hermeneutics, I refer you to David Newman's article (posted March 19, 2010).

I agree with Newman that the real issue here is hermeneutical. If we fail to follow basic rules of interpretation, we will never reach agreement on anything. The only way to support Batchelor's statement "...for the first 1900 years, 2000 years of church history, it was understood that sort of the final authority within the church was to rest solely with husbands and the men pastors," is to take passages out of their historical and cultural context.

Pastor Batchelor attempted to link those who favor women in ministry with the feminist movement. It appears that his inference is intended to discredit the opposition without dealing honestly with their arguments.

Batchelor stated that a careful examination of Seventh-day Adventist history would reveal that the movement for women in ministry is a recent development coming out of pressure by the feminist movement of the last 50 to 60 years. However, church history reveals that women have served as licensed ministers working as evangelists and pastors from the earliest days of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

In 1871, Sarah A. Lindsey received a ministerial license and worked as an evangelist with her husband in western New York and Pennsylvania. Other women who held ministerial licenses in the 1870's include Ellen Lane and Hellen Stanton Williams in the Michigan Conference, Margaret Caro in Australia and New Zealand, and Sarepta Myendra Irish Henry in the United States.

Hetty Hurd Haskell worked as a licensed minister for 34 years. Ten years after receiving her ministerial license, Hetty met and married Stephen N. Haskell.

In 1900, Lorena Florence Plummer served for a time as acting president of the Iowa Conference, having previously been elected as Conference Secretary.

Many more cases could be cited, but space does not permit. In fact, it could be concluded that the current trend of women serving as pastors is actually a return to "historic Adventism" and not an act of "political correctness" prompted by the feminist movement in America.

These pioneering Adventist women had biblical precedent for their ministry as pastors and evangelists. Priscilla and her husband Aquila served together as pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. (Acts 18:2, 18 & 26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19)

In Ephesians 4:2-3, Paul called two women, Euodia and Syntche, "true yokefellow" in that they labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

In Romans 16:7, Paul sends greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles." Junia is a woman's name. No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Paul expected women to speak in the church. If he did not, why would he have given the following directive? "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven." (1 Corinthians 11:5 NASV)

Why would Paul give instructions for how women should pray or prophesy in church if they were not permitted to do so? And why did Paul commend women who served as pastors if they were not permitted to serve in that position of leadership?

With all this in mind, how are we to understand the passages that tell women to remain silent in church? First of all, we must interpret those verses in light of what we have just established - that there were women in leadership positions of the church. Obviously, Paul is addressing another issue entirely.

In his letter to the church at Corinth, Paul dealt with that church's chaotic worship services. Men were seated on one side of the church while the women and children were seated on the opposite side. The women of that day were generally uneducated, while men were more likely to have benefited from an education. Since women did not sit with their husbands, they would often shout across the room to ask their husbands to explain the sermon.

Paul was simply telling women to wait until they got home to ask about the sermon. Obviously, this issue does not exist everywhere, so His word to the first-century women of Corinth is to be viewed as a "local absolute" and not a "universal absolute."

When Paul wrote to Timothy, he gave a similar directive regarding women. In I Timothy, Paul was addressing heresies and false teachings that came from the worship of the pagan goddess, Diana, including the suggestion that women were authoritative over men and had higher access to spiritual knowledge than men did.

In both of these cases, we can see that Paul is dealing with specific incidents in local churches. Sound hermeneutics will not allow us to turn the counsel Paul shared for a particular place and time into a global "commandment".

Hopefully, this brief treatment will help demonstrate that those of us who support women in ministry have not taken our position on the issue due to pressures from the feminist movement. Our position comes from a careful and prayerful examination of Scripture in context.

Obviously, neither Pastor Batchelor nor I have uttered the final, definitive word on this issue. I pray that as the discussions continue, they will at least be guided by sound hermeneutics. I further pray that women who have been called to ministry will be allowed to follow the calling that God has placed upon them.

Mike Tucker

Speaker/Director

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

...The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Then why would Paul specifically refer to Phoebe as a leader for the believers in Rome to listen to and do as she instructed?

Notice that the New King James Version and the NIV refer to her as a "servant [Gk.diakonos, Strong's #1249] of the church in Cenchrea" (Rom. 16: 1). Most Bible scholars believe she was a deaconess. For instance, the Amplified Bible reads, "a deaconness of the church at Cenchreae." The vast majority of the translations show her to have been a "helper [Gk. prostatis, strong's #4368] of many," including Paul. This word only occurs here and is defined as "patroness; protectress."

It is significant that she was in the church at Cenchrea. Now Cenchrea is near Corinth. Why is that significant? Because Paul wrote in his letter to the Corinthians, "As in all the congregations of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says.... If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized" (1 Cor. 14: 33b, 34, 37, 38).

It is extremely unlikely that Paul would have written the above while at the same time Phoebe was serving as the pastor and leader of the church at Cenchrea, since the church at Cenchrea was only a few miles away from the Corinthians. Consider also that Paul was the one inspired to write, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence, BECAUSE Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2: 12-14).

How could he write these things if Phoebe was teaching and preaching, as well as governing or managing the church, only a few miles away from Corinth?

1 Cor. was written about A.D. 55

Romans was written about A.D. 57

1 Tim. was written about A.D. 63-65.

The above chronology would mean that Paul did not change the instructions concerning women's role in the NT church between the writing of 1 Cor. and the writing of 1 Tim. That means it is highly unlikely that Phoebe was the leader of the church at Cenchrea. She was more likely a deaconess and helper, just as most translations read. Check out the SDA Bible Commentary on Romans 16: 1, 2. It's excellent.

What evidence do you have that Phoebe was the pastor and leader of the church at Cenchrea?

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: It has been suggested that she was the first bishop of Rome.

Who has suggested this, and what is the evidence for it?

The fact that something has been suggested by someone is no evidence for anything. Anyone can suggest anything, and history shows they have.

What's important is who suggested it and on what basis.

Could you give us the evidence supporting the argument that Phoebe was the first bishop of Rome? Also, who believes this and for what reason?

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: This fact of Phoebe's position as a minister and leader of the church in Rome was recognized in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in an editorial published by James White way back at the beginning of the Advent movement.

What did James White say? Did he conclude that women should be ordained as pastors and elders of the local SDA churches? More importantly, did James White ever ordain and license a woman to be the pastor of a local congregation?

What was James White's evidence that Phoebe was a pastor and leader of the church in Rome? In the NT, "minister" and "pastor" are not necessarily the same thing. They derive from two separate words. "Minister" is a word with very broad meaning, including that of deacon.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: You have to ignore the women that Paul recognized and affirmed as his co-laborers, etc.

As I've shown above, I don't "have to ignore" anything, particularly Phoebe. We've discussed this issue before, over a year ago. Phoebe and the other women in the NT were mentioned and discussed in detail at that time.

(I won't tell you or anyone else that they "have to ignore" anything. People may not have mentioned something at the time of writing, but that doesn't mean they "have to" ignore it. As in this case, the women you refer to have been discussed before, but we can do it again, and fully, if you like.)

What do you believe the Bible evidence about the women whom Paul recognized shows us about the woman's role in the NT church?

[John317]

Quote:

Neil D (quoting Mike Tucker): ... church history reveals that women have served as licensed ministers working as evangelists and pastors from the earliest days of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

The question isn't whether women have been evangelists or whether they've been "licensed ministers."

The question is, who during those years served as the pastor of local congregations?

Quote:

Mike Tucker: In 1871, Sarah A. Lindsey received a ministerial license and worked as an evangelist with her husband in western New York and Pennsylvania.

It's important to know what she did. The NT allows women to work as evangelists and teachers.

Quote:

Mike Tucker: Other women who held ministerial licenses in the 1870's include Ellen Lane and Hellen Stanton Williams in the Michigan Conference, Margaret Caro in Australia and New Zealand, and Sarepta Myendra Irish Henry in the United States.

Hetty Hurd Haskell worked as a licensed minister for 34 years. Ten years after receiving her ministerial license, Hetty met and married Stephen N. Haskell.

In 1900, Lorena Florence Plummer served for a time as acting president of the Iowa Conference, having previously been elected as Conference Secretary.

Were any of these women the pastors of the local congregations? What exactly did their duties call for them to do? Many women in those days were ordained and licensed in order to work in various positions apart from a church pastor or elder.

Quote:

Mike Tucker:

These pioneering Adventist women had biblical precedent for their ministry as pastors and evangelists. Priscilla and her husband Aquila served together as pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. (Acts 18:2, 18 & 26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19)

Priscilla worked along with and beside her husband. There is no evidence that she served as a pastor or elder of a local congregation. She and her husband taught the gospel to Appolos, evidently in private.

Quote:

Mike Tucker: In Ephesians 4:2-3, Paul called two women, Euodia and Syntche, "true yokefellow" in that they labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Mike Tucker must mean Philippians 4: 2-3.

If you check the text, you will see that Paul does not refer to Euodia and Syntche as "true yokefellow" [Gk. gnhsios syzygos]. Paul is talking to a single individual when he uses that word, syzygos, since it is a singular noun, probably the name of someone in the local church. Paul asks this individual to help "these women," who were evidently having some disagreement. Paul is pleading with those women to "agree with each other in the Lord." Paul also says that those two women have worked alongside of him, in support of his work in the cause of the gospel. Notice that Paul does not say exactly what those women have done.

Quote:

Mike Tucker: In Romans 16:7, Paul sends greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles." Junia is a woman's name. No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Mike Tucker is clearly historically in error here. Here's the evidence, which was posted a few days on a separate thread, dealing with the General Conference:

The name "Junias" could be either masculine or feminine. All of the texts that I have which parse the word, iounian, show "n. asm" which means "noun accusative singular masculine."

Ancient Church Fathers were divided on whether Junias of Romans 16: 7 is a man or a woman. Epiphanius (315-403), bishop of Salamis, assumed the word was masculine; Chrysostom assumed it was feminine. Epiphanius said that Junias became bishop of Apameia, while Chrysostom (347-407) gave no more information than can be gleaned from Paul's epistle.

This makes it appear that Epiphanius had more information than was availble to Chrysostom.

Origen (d. 252) also thought "Junias" was a man, as he writes in his commentary on Romans 16: 7. His commentary is the earliest on Romans 16: 7, and it's preserved in a latin translation which gives the name in the masculine gender.

The bottom line is that it's impossible to know for sure if it's referring to a man or a woman. It could be translated either way. The evidence is indecisive.

Thus the American Standard Version (1901) and the NIV give it as "Junias," whereas the NRSV and REB give, Junia. The Greek text has iounian, which is the accusative singular masculine form.

On Romans 16: 7, The SDA Bible Commentary on Romans (written by my esteemed friend, Dr. Graham Maxwell) reads, "Junia. Or 'Junias.' This may be the name of either a man or a woman."

Dr. Maxwell is a first-rate Greek scholar, having studied it at the University of Chicago and having taught it for many years at various colleges and universities.

Here are two excellent literal translations, Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Ephasized Bible:

Rotherham's reads, "Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow-captives, who indeed are of note among the Apostles, who also before me had come to be in Christ."

YLT reads, "Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me."

As you can see, both Robert Young's translation and Rotherham's translation understand Junias to be a man.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: The primary responsibility of officers of the church-- bishops, elders, pastors-- is to "rule," or govern, or manage the church. See 1 Tim. 3: 4-5; 5: 17. In other words, the pastors and elders are the governing authority over the church.

Also compare 1 Peter 5: 2-5; Hebews 13: 17. "Obey your leaders and submit to them."

Compare the above with 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33b-36.

The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

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CoAspen:

Maybe that's the problem, we fail to see that God is governing the church...

God does govern the church, but He governs through the organizational plan that He inspired in the NT. In the same way, God governed the children of israel through the plan He inspired in the OT.

Please study the verses and tell what they say. Don't they tell us that the primary responsibilities of the officers of the church are to "rule, lead, govern, manage" the church?

[Gregory Matthews]

I like HMS Richards' response to a question about women as pastors.

"As soon as we run out of men." End of discussion.

And, that is what has historically happened:

1) In Scandanavia during WWII.

2) With EGW and two males who preceeded her.

3) Some would say in China now.

[Tom Wetmore]

I recall from previous discussions on this topic that you claimed to have not made up your mind and that you were open-minded about the topic.

I have seen no evidence of that in anything you have ever posted on the topic.

What do you do with the clear historic evidence within the Adventist Church that Tucker speaks of and that Doug is either in denial about or ignorant of? In proportion to the Church membership and the total number of clergy in the Adventist denomination at that time, there were more women in ministry in EGW's day than there are now. And yes, "John317", women were in fact pastoring churches, doing evangelism, and in leadership roles, both singularly and with husbands.

And Ellen White urged that there be 20X more women than there were then involved in preaching the gospel truth:

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Women can be the instruments of righteousness, rendering holy service. It was Mary that first preached a risen Jesus. In fulfillment of the divine plan, the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. If this work was not beneath the dignity of the world's Redeemer, the Creator of worlds, should it be considered too humiliating for sinful mortals? If Christ taught, and if he wrestled in earnest prayer to his Father in behalf of those he came to save, we should engage in the same work. Those who engage with the Son of God in his work, be they ever so aspiring, can have no greater, no holier work than this. If there were twenty women where now there is one, who would make this holy mission their cherished work, we should see many more converted to the truth. The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth. The Lord of the vineyard is saying to many women who are now doing nothing, "Why stand ye here all the day idle?" Zealous and continued diligence in our sisters toiling for the spread of the truth would be wholly successful, and would astonish us with its results. Through patience and perseverance, the work must be accomplished. In this faithful work is manifested the real devotion to God. He calls for deeds, and not words only. {RH, January 2, 1879 par. 1, Emphasis added}

Doug would seem to be suggesting that EGW and the early leaders of the Adventist Church were wrong to permit any women in ministry?

[Tom Wetmore]

John317,

Regarding Phoebe, consider all the evidence. There is a mountain of tradition that colors the translations. Within the NT, it is only in this one instance with regard to a woman that diakonos is translated as "servant" or "helper". (Diakonos was not a mere servant or lowly helper or even remotely what we now call deacons. It was a servant of the king.) The vast majority of times in reference to men it is translated as "minister" and only a couple verses as "deacon". (In some denominations still deacons are clergy, and not mere ushers as we render deacons.) And not all versions translate diakonos in regard to Phoebe as "servant" or "helper". Darby translates it as "minister" and the Young literal translation translates verses one and two as follows:

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And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that [is] in Cenchrea -- that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you -- for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

The second Greek term prostatis means much more than the words you have selectively chosen. Just the complete Strong's and Thayer's definition is:

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1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

The Greek lexicon also notes that it is a specific derivative of the verb proistemi which means:

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1) to set or place before

a) to set over

to be over, to superintend, preside over

c) to be a protector or guardian

1) to give aid

d) to care for, give attention to

1) profess honest occupations

And Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says:

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It is a word of dignity, evidently chosen instead of others which might have been used (see, e.g., under HELPER), and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded, as one who had been a protectress of many. Prostates was the title of a citizen in Athens, who had the responsibility of seeing to the welfare of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community.

If Paul had actually meant merely that Phoebe was just a helper, he would have used boethos which clearly and only means "helper". Or he could have chosen the term signifying a worker of equal standing who helps - sunergos. But he chose instead a term signifying someone of higher standing, a woman that is in a position over others, a supervisor, a female overseer - a female bishop.

If Phoebe was merely a servant, why did Paul instruct the the Roman believers to help her in whatever she asked of them? To confirm the reason they should do as she said, Paul emphasized the point by caller her a prostatis. And Paul acknowledged that he regarded her as his superior.

Tom