William G. Johnson on Adventists and Muslims

[Mom E]

My only reason for studying it at this time is to learn their beliefs. (I'm not sure if they're sunni or shiite.) I probably won't even talk about my own personal beliefs. I'll let him know my intentions are simply to understand their beliefs.

Much ground can be gained by a quiet, gentle spirit!! (I could stand to learn that lesson over a few times myself!!)

[John317]

Quote:

Mom E: I think many of us have seen Jeremiah Films' presentations on Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses - and we think they are probably accurate... But have you viewed the one they did on Adventists?? Would you find it to be accurate??? (I think not...) So what is the truth??

Yes, I agree. I don't trust information about groups unless it is written by the group themselves. I have read some stuff about Mormons and JWs written by former or non-members, but I don't depend on it for my view of those religions. I spent about a year and a half studying Jehovah's Witnesses but that was from inside their organization, going to their meetings and to their homes and their conferences and asking thousands of questions, reading their publications, etc.

I learned from my experience that most of the things that are published about them (particularly the Jehovah's Witnesses) cannot be depended on for an accurate view. It's the same with things about SDAs that are written by "outsiders." One book that comes close (as far as both JWs and SDAs are concerned) is Martin's book, Kingdom of the Cults. It is pretty accurate, but even so, you can't get the feel of the people unless you get among them and are seen by them as one of them. I came to the place where I genuinely felt love and respect for them. But they change once they know you aren't going to become a member. I'm glad we don't do that to people-- at least I hope no SDAs do that.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I ... don't entirely buy the argument that Muslims are somehow discriminated against in the West and that Islam is really a religion that does not believe in violence. WGJ's comment to the effect that all religions have a violent element to them is disingenious. I have known several people who have lived in Islamic countries or cultures (like the Phillipines) and they would laugh anyone who postulated that idea to them out of town. Anyone who believes in the rule of Sharia(??) law cannot, by definition, be said to reject violence. Still,the real question is how can we reach those, in that culture, for Christ?

Originally Posted By: Esther

Then, by definition, the Israelites had a violent religion too!!!

Then you said "Huh?? Had?" (I can't use the normal quote form a third layer)

I'd like to make sure I understand what you mean by your comment regarding Sharia law...

I was specifically referring to the Israelites under the original Mosaic law...

I was wondering why you were comparing the Israelite religion of 3000 years ago with today's Islam? Though I see major differences in the situations I don't really want to go there now. I understand Sharia law to be the civil enactment of many strictly theological points,like the Taliban enforced in Afganistan,Saudi Arabia's government, many portions of Africa,the Phillipines,Iran,ect. A relatively recent poll of Muslims in the U.K. showed that some 80% or so, would like to see England governed by these laws.Stoning of adulteresses,punishing rape victims,death for conversion to other religions,ect...seem to be included in that package.

[doug yowell]

Within Islam, there are many branches of belief, so you may not find this to be true for EVERY Muslim you meet, but in general...

Muslims believe in both the Old and New Testament, and quote them in their services.

They believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he healed the blind and lepers and raised the dead. They believe he is now with God in heaven - in fact, that he is nearest to God in an intercessory sense. They also believe that he will return from heaven on the Day of Judgment.

At the moment, I can't think of any beliefs besides the Sabbath that Jews hold that Muslims don't also hold...

And (though I will NOT take time to detail it here), if you look at the original Quranic text, without the baggage of traditions, you can find at least 27 of our beliefs supported... This gives us great material to start with as we share with them. The Quran itself refers to the Bible with great respect in many places and tells believers to read it for greater understand (my paraphrase).

Can we find the state of the dead,or the Trinity doctrine there? That would be interesting.

[Mom E]

I was wondering why you were comparing the Israelite religion of 3000 years ago with today's Islam? Though I see major differences in the situations I don't really want to go there now. I understand Sharia law to be the civil enactment of many strictly theological points,like the Taliban enforced in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia's government, many portions of Africa,the Philippines, Iran, etc. A relatively recent poll of Muslims in the U.K. showed that some 80% or so, would like to see England governed by these laws. Stoning of adulteresses, punishing rape victims, death for conversion to other religions,etc...seem to be included in that package.

Because we generally have a different perception of the two "violent" forms of government, although they are very similar...

I believe that many Christians, if similarly polled, would also want the government to enforce things that others would find very unpleasant....

We can look at others and see a lot of negative about them, or we can also see our own faults...

I also hope you understand that a huge amount of what you hear about Muslims on the media is exaggerated, biased, etc.... but that's a whole 'nother topic...

[Mom E]

Can we find the state of the dead,or the Trinity doctrine there? That would be interesting.

Yes. Not in common current Muslim interpretation of the text, but it is there. I haven't looked into the state of the dead, myself, but I know others have, and found it there. I don't personally like the term, Trinity (EGW never used it), but I think we would mean the same if I use the term, Godhead. And yes, it's easy to find there. No, the term, Son of God, isn't used... I've already discussed the reasons for that. There are many prophets mentioned in the Quran - Mohammad included...And they're given terms of respect (common ones are "Slave (of God)", Prophet, Messenger, Preferred, etc). But there are 22 unique names or qualities that are attributed to Jesus, and not to any other prophet... The Holy Spirit is known as the Spirit of the Holy One (or something like that) in the Quran...

[BobRyan]

According to many historians - Mohammed was somewhat of a violent person and was also violent even toward even his own prisoners. I am wondering how much that violence is really reflected in the Quran. I am guessing that some of it comes through.

I heard of a survey in Europe - (places like France) where a large number of people are migrating from Islamic countries and settling there. Apparently about 30 % of the Muslim youth surveyed were in favor of suicide bombing efforts in the Middle East.

The point is -- it is not some fringe 1% of 1% of Muslims that finds this kind of thing consistent with the Quran. It is relatively large group.

Do the Imams make it clear that they do not support such things?

I wonder.

In any case - the point is not whether Islam might have an error or two some place in the teaching. But I have wondered about the reality of what is taught there vs what we often hear about it 2nd hand.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

According to many historians - Mohammed was somewhat of a violent person and was also violent even toward even his own prisoners. I am wondering how much that violence is really reflected in the Quran. I am guessing that some of it comes through.

Actually, it's a fact well known among Muslims that Mohammad often raided caravans and engaged in a number of battles. One of the best known is called the Battle of Badr where he captured Medina. He then took Mecca with a force of 10,000 men and with was very little bloodshed because the citizens determined that what occurred at Medina should not happen to them. The Battle of Badr, where Mohammad believed Allah sent angels to help him, is referred to in Surah 3: 123-125: "And Allah certainly helped you at Badr when you were weak. So keep your duty to Allah that you may give thanks. When thou didst say to the believers: does it not suffice you that your Lord should help you with three thousand angels sent down? Yea, if you are steadfast and keep your duty, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of havoc-making angels."

Quote:

I heard of a survey in Europe - (places like France) where a large number of people are migrating from Islamic countries and settling there. Apparently about 30 % of the Muslim youth surveyed were in favor of suicide bombing efforts in the Middle East.

I'm not surprised. We need to really pray that God will open their hearts to the love of Christ and be converted to Him. And we need to pray that God will help us to know how to relate to them and talk to them so they will want to know Jesus and accept His salvation.

Quote:

The point is -- it is not some fringe 1% of 1% of Muslims that finds this kind of thing consistent with the Quran. It is relatively large group.

Yes, it is many more than 1% of the total, I fear.

Quote:

Do the Imams make it clear that they do not support such things?

I wonder.

Some do but many don't, unfortunately. Truth to tell, a lot of Muslims are afraid to come out in public opposition to the extremists. The Islamists have killed more Muslims than Westerners.

Quote:

In any case - the point is not whether Islam might have an error or two some place in the teaching. But I have wondered about the reality of what is taught there vs what we often hear about it 2nd hand.

I think the best thing we can do, really, is put all the hatred and fear aside and show individual Muslim that we truly care about them and don't hate them. The one thing that they are not used to is people who love their enemies.

Muslims are not often taught to be forgiving and merciful and loving toward non-Muslims. The Koran doesn't encourage Muslims to forgive and love their enemies. So if there is anything that will impress them about Christianity and Christians, that is what will do it. Muslims who become Christians very often say the love of Christians-- and the commandment of Christ to love one's enemies-- is what caused them to eventually convert to Christ.

While as an American I don't like what Muslims do in attacking people and killing them, I'm determined as an Adventist to lay those feelings aside and be loving and kind to them on an individual basis. I think that if we get involved in the conflicts and hatreds of this world, God won't be able to use us the way He wants to before His return. And between now and then, we can be sure there will be many more wars, so we have to find a way to detach ourselves from the world's racial, national, religious prejudices, or else we won't be able to give the Three Angels Message effectively.

[Mom E]

According to many historians - Mohammed was somewhat of a violent person and was also violent even toward even his own prisoners. I am wondering how much that violence is really reflected in the Quran. I am guessing that some of it comes through.

I heard of a survey in Europe - (places like France) where a large number of people are migrating from Islamic countries and settling there. Apparently about 30 % of the Muslim youth surveyed were in favor of suicide bombing efforts in the Middle East.

The point is -- it is not some fringe 1% of 1% of Muslims that finds this kind of thing consistent with the Quran. It is relatively large group.

Do the Imams make it clear that they do not support such things?

I wonder.

In any case - the point is not whether Islam might have an error or two some place in the teaching. But I have wondered about the reality of what is taught there vs what we often hear about it 2nd hand.

in Christ,

Bob

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:41, 42

I'm not really sure just how to respond beyond that. I'm sure you're asking sincere questions. I'm just so sorry that our media shares such a bias, and we ignorantly copy it. But I strongly believe that if we take the time and effort to look at it from their side, we would be able to look at it quite differently and see much more equal faults on both sides.

Yes, there are MANY public statements released by Islamic leaders against violence. I'm on the mailing list of the largest Islamic organization in the USA, and I can tell you that within hours of the Fort Hood incident, they released a very strong condemnation of the act. But did you hear about it??? Did the media emphasize that???

So since that is not the point, what ARE we learning here?

[BobRyan]

My point is that if the accurate view of the Quran does promote the violence that many Islamic groups claim that is supports - we should at least "know" about it.

For example - the Bible does teach the fact - the reality of miracles in many places - but there are many Christian groups taking a "no miracles in the Bible" watered down view of the text. In the same way - IF the Quran is promoting holy war, promoting violence, promoting the idea of forcing Islamic law on communities and nations - but there is a large group within Islam that choose to back away from the statements of their own holy book and that explains the variation that you see in the world... we should know about it.

My point is that I am not looking to be shocked to find that "the Quran is not right in everything it says". I assume that Christians are going to find at least one or two points of difference with the Quran anyway.

My question is more along the lines of "what are the facts" both good and bad.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

While as an American I don't like what Muslims do in attacking people and killing them, I'm determined as an Adventist to lay those feelings aside and be loving and kind to them on an individual basis. I think that if we get involved in the conflicts and hatreds of this world, God won't be able to use us the way He wants to before His return. And between now and then, we can be sure there will be many more wars, so we have to find a way to detach ourselves from the world's racial, national, religious prejudices, or else we won't be able to give the Three Angels Message effectively.

Agreed.

I would not want to be held accountable for everything any Christian of any denomination did in the dark ages or in Ireland or ... And I do not hold anyone who is Muslim accountable for what other Muslims do. Every person has their own free will and can choose.

in Christ,

Bob

[Mom E]

My point is that if the accurate view of the Quran does promote the violence that many Islamic groups claim that is supports - we should at least "know" about it.

For example - the Bible does teach the fact - the reality of miracles in many places - but there are many Christian groups taking a "no miracles in the Bible" watered down view of the text. In the same way - IF the Quran is promoting holy war, promoting violence, promoting the idea of forcing Islamic law on communities and nations - but there is a large group within Islam that choose to back away from the statements of their own holy book and that explains the variation that you see in the world... we should know about it.

My point is that I am not looking to be shocked to find that "the Quran is not right in everything it says". I assume that Christians are going to find at least one or two points of difference with the Quran anyway.

My question is more along the lines of "what are the facts" both good and bad.

in Christ,

Bob

From my reading of the Quran (not through the lens of Muslim teachings, or the commentary on the Quran, and no, I haven't read the whole thing through), I haven't found the Quran to be promoting violence, at least any more than the Old Testament does... The term, jihad, actually most often refers to the inward struggle against evil in one's own heart and life.

You can read it for yourself without the Muslim commentary...

[Kevin H]

I have a video from a pannel discussion at the General Theological Seminary in New York City (I love their bookstore, but they may have recently moved, remodeling or gone out of business or something as a friend of mine went there recently and told me that it was not there) Anyway this discussion was shortly after 9/11 and had Christians, a Jew (who happened to be the daughter of Abraham Joshua Heshel) and a Imam.

Now I understand, from my college Old Testament Professor, that the liberal Muslims interpet jihad as meaning fighting the evil in the self and that this has not been really faithful to the Quran, that sadly we can't get away from jihad being wars against others; While this pannel did not discuss that issue, what this pannel did point out (and I don't know if this is more the liberal but not faitful view or not) is that the wars Mohammed was involved in were defensive in nature and that it was not until after he died that they became offensive. They also said that there was a war where Mohammed and the Moslims were not doing well. Mohammed finally decided that he was just going to approach the enemy unarmed and if they killed him they killed him. When he came they were so impessed that they listened to him and converted and that Mohammed himself changed and that the last 7 years of his life he was a passifist, and that he was no longer interested in even the defensive wars.

Then after 7 years of being a passifist he died and that after his death that some of the moslems returned to war but not just the defensive wars that Mohammed was involved with but with agressive offensive wars.

[Kevin H]

Sorry MomE, we were both typing at the same time. I was not trying to correct you when I told what the professor said about the 2 interpatations of jihad

[Mom E]

I'd like to quote a friend of mine here (since I haven't had/taken the time to do it myself):

Quote:

... so I sat down to go through the entire Qur’an, page by page, and examine every single aya that deals with this concept. What I learned was fascinating.

"Jihad" is used in the Qur’an primarily to describe the struggle or striving against negative influences in the pursuit of internal purity. It is also commonly used in defensive terms: struggling against sin and vanity avoiding contacts with unbelievers and other corrupting influences, much like the "shunning" practiced by the Amish in America.

The term has many shades of meaning. In different suras of the Qur'an, "jihad" is used variously to denote: avoiding unbelievers and hypocrites, striving to convince and encourage, having faith, dealing with money and self, emigration, patience, and giving. “Jihad" covers the one who struggles in the righteous path of internal purification, the reward that awaits those who righteously struggle thus, and righteousness itself.

Some passages in the Qur’an use “jihad" to describe defensive fighting in the cause of Allah, which is readily taken out of context to imply armed aggression; but this is poles apart from the genuine Qur'an meaning. The struggle to defend family, friends, community, and honor against external attack is also jihad, but this use of the term appears as such in the Qur’an only rarely——certainly far less often (and with far less vivid evocations of bloodshed) than the same impulse is described in the Old Testament.

What the term means primarily is an internal struggle, the effort to withstand external influences and come closer to God. When James, the brother of Jesus, invokes the word "religion," he defines it as giving to orphans and widows, plus the effort to keep oneself pure in the world. This struggle to keep oneself pure, untainted, and clear in mind, body and soul, is jihad.

---

My friend is also a student of Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke on a daily basis. He goes on to note that there is a very similar word in Aramaic ("geeakh"?) which is used in a number of NT verses and means "to strive"...

[Mom E]

Sorry MomE, we were both typing at the same time. I was not trying to correct you when I told what the professor said about the 2 interpatations of jihad

Hey, that's OK!

[BobRyan]

From my reading of the Quran (not through the lens of Muslim teachings, or the commentary on the Quran, and no, I haven't read the whole thing through), I haven't found the Quran to be promoting violence, at least any more than the Old Testament does... The term, jihad, actually most often refers to the inward struggle against evil in one's own heart and life.

You can read it for yourself without the Muslim commentary...

Thanks - I will do that.

I was thinking the other day "just how different" Christianity would be if the Bible ended with Samuel telling Saul that he would lose the kingdom to David because he failed to kill Agag and only killed every man woman and child in the town that he attacked.

You can bet that Christianity would be a very different religion today if that is how the text of scripture ended. Imagine if that was an account from the life of Paul or of John the revelator - some final set of stories that ultimately closed out scripture.

[CaseyButler]

Was Joshua a prophet? It seems to me he was...

And wasn't it Joshua whom we're told wiped out 31 cities in Canaan, every man, woman, and child - even every animal? This without waiting for God to send hornets to do the job in peace.

What about Moses and the Midianites? What about countless other prophets and kings of Israel who, we are told, resorted to violence in God's name?

Yet Jesus, as our example of God on earth, embraced the past of Judaism, thus justifying the good and bad actions recorded of all of Judaism's prophets and kings - as necessary steps towards our final good.

Rather than comparing the state of fundementalist Islam with Judaism of 3,000 year ago, I think the miraculous comparison is the comparison of Islam to Judaism at the time of Christ.

For example, the Pharisees as described in the New Testament may as well be the Taliban of today. From executing adulterers to developing a complex religious law from scriptures, both prefer/ed the safety of a Theocratic form of government from which they can claim the Authority of God as final arbiter of "justice".

I wonder if, like the UK government, the Romans polled the Jews about including the Law of Moses in local government...

Islam has its Hadith as Judaism has its Talmud, interpreting scriptures and passing down the wisdom of sages not quite ready to call themselves "prophets".

Violence, violence, violence, lies and Truth and lies... Even so Jesus embraced Judaism and all its history, all Truth, denegrating no prophet or king, no matter how murderous the record of deeds reads.

He sent us to do the same for all the World.

I've now read the Qur'an through 5 times. I am a witness (for lack of a better word) that Muhammad was inspired by the same Deity that inspired Jesus and his disciples. It's what the Qur'an says in words that only Jesus could impart.

Does it surprise us that Jesus and God would choose an Arab to save Arabs?

("What kind of man Jesus was" might be better stated, "What kind of man Jesus IS", BTW.)

I've never found the word jihad or the phrase "holy war" in the Qur'an. Maybe it's the translations I've read, ie. Yusef Ali and Ahmed Ali.

The Qur'an forbids attacking anyone first (certainly not Jews and Christians of whom respect is demanded by God), but it goes on to authorize believers to defend themselves if first attacked, and to continue defending themselves using "every strategem of war" until the attackers stop, and "tumult and oppression" ceases.

Sort of the way Esther had the King of the Medes and Persians modify Haman's law in order to save the Jews.

When I think back and place myself as a 'God and Jesus evangelical type' in the time of Muhammad, when the only devout Christians in the world were all locked in monastaries and convents, when political and continental power was everything to the Holy Roman Church, I am in awe of this fellow and what he recorded from God. Like David in Psalms and Jesus in the New Testament, Muhammed practiced the "speech of birds".... metaphor, parables, and similes, to tell us how hard it was for him and his people at the time.

When I heard the voice of Jesus coming from the Qur'an (so to speak), I had to listen.

Through Jesus Christ and his apostles, Muhammed performed a wonderful miracle, but it would appear that most of us aren't ready for it yet.

So, as the bodies pile up, and theological arguments proceed apace, I embrace my World and all therein, including every saint of every stripe, every sinner, and every atheist/agnostic inspired by the All-Powerful God of our humble Universe because we were too lazy, too fat, or too terrified to spread the Gospel as requested...

I... still... remain... a Seventh-Day Adventist witness to the wonderful Qur'an and it's Author. :-)

(He sent us to do the same for all the World. There is good news.)

Casey

[doug yowell]

Was Joshua a prophet? It seems to me he was...

And wasn't it Joshua whom we're told wiped out 31 cities in Canaan, every man, woman, and child - even every animal? This without waiting for God to send hornets to do the job in peace.

What about Moses and the Midianites? What about countless other prophets and kings of Israel who, we are told, resorted to violence in God's name?

Yet Jesus, as our example of God on earth, embraced the past of Judaism, thus justifying the good and bad actions recorded of all of Judaism's prophets and kings - as necessary steps towards our final good.

Rather than comparing the state of fundementalist Islam with Judaism of 3,000 year ago, I think the miraculous comparison is the comparison of Islam to Judaism at the time of Christ.

For example, the Pharisees as described in the New Testament may as well be the Taliban of today. From executing adulterers to developing a complex religious law from scriptures, both prefer/ed the safety of a Theocratic form of government from which they can claim the Authority of God as final arbiter of "justice".

I wonder if, like the UK government, the Romans polled the Jews about including the Law of Moses in local government...

Islam has its Hadith as Judaism has its Talmud, interpreting scriptures and passing down the wisdom of sages not quite ready to call themselves "prophets".

Violence, violence, violence, lies and Truth and lies... Even so Jesus embraced Judaism and all its history, all Truth, denegrating no prophet or king, no matter how murderous the record of deeds reads.

He sent us to do the same for all the World.

I've now read the Qur'an through 5 times. I am a witness (for lack of a better word) that Muhammad was inspired by the same Deity that inspired Jesus and his disciples. It's what the Qur'an says in words that only Jesus could impart.

Does it surprise us that Jesus and God would choose an Arab to save Arabs?

("What kind of man Jesus was" might be better stated, "What kind of man Jesus IS", BTW.)

I've never found the word jihad or the phrase "holy war" in the Qur'an. Maybe it's the translations I've read, ie. Yusef Ali and Ahmed Ali.

The Qur'an forbids attacking anyone first (certainly not Jews and Christians of whom respect is demanded by God), but it goes on to authorize believers to defend themselves if first attacked, and to continue defending themselves using "every strategem of war" until the attackers stop, and "tumult and oppression" ceases.

Sort of the way Esther had the King of the Medes and Persians modify Haman's law in order to save the Jews.

When I think back and place myself as a 'God and Jesus evangelical type' in the time of Muhammad, when the only devout Christians in the world were all locked in monastaries and convents, when political and continental power was everything to the Holy Roman Church, I am in awe of this fellow and what he recorded from God. Like David in Psalms and Jesus in the New Testament, Muhammed practiced the "speech of birds".... metaphor, parables, and similes, to tell us how hard it was for him and his people at the time.

When I heard the voice of Jesus coming from the Qur'an (so to speak), I had to listen.

Through Jesus Christ and his apostles, Muhammed performed a wonderful miracle, but it would appear that most of us aren't ready for it yet.

So, as the bodies pile up, and theological arguments proceed apace, I embrace my World and all therein, including every saint of every stripe, every sinner, and every atheist/agnostic inspired by the All-Powerful God of our humble Universe because we were too lazy, too fat, or too terrified to spread the Gospel as requested...

I... still... remain... a Seventh-Day Adventist witness to the wonderful Qur'an and it's Author. :-)

(He sent us to do the same for all the World. There is good news.)

Casey

That's really weird, Casey.

[Guest]

I'm going to have to agree with Doug.

[Mom E]

Maybe it's weird because you've never thought of it that way before???

I really agree with you, Casey, that modern Islam, and the Judaism of Jesus' day have huge parallels...

[doug yowell]

Maybe it's weird because you've never thought of it that way before???

I really agree with you, Casey, that modern Islam, and the Judaism of Jesus' day have huge parallels...

Or maybe it's weird because it's biblically incoherent.Through Jesus Christ and His apostles Mohammed performed a wonderful miracle??? Modern Islam and Judaism of Jesus day have huge parallels? "Even a child is known by his doings,whether what he does is pure,or whether it is right." Most of us are not skeptical of Islam because of what is alleged that it teaches. Most who know Islam by what it practices.The fact that all over the world today (not 3 or 4 thousand years ago)Islam is in conflict, even within itself,says more to me that trying to defend it by using the Koran. Where ever Islam is prominent there is fear and oppression, even among it's own adherents. Why? If the Bible (and Adventism) is so close to the Koran then why are Muslims so fearful to convert? Our Advent pioneers also recognized the reality of Mohammaten brutality in their day. So I don't see this as a media distortion or a misunderstanding of what Muslims really believe or what the Koran really teaches. I don't have to be an Arabic expert to believe what my next door neighbor said he experienced in Bangladesh. Or what my Hindu friend says he experienced in India. Comparing that to Judaism thousands of years age in order to somehow understand Islam seems rather,uh,you know......unless this is a subtle attack on the people of God in the OT.

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

I don't have to be an Arabic expert to believe what my next door neighbor said he experienced in Bangladesh. Or what my Hindu friend says he experienced in India.

No, but you do have to ignore what your neighbors who are Muslim are saying. You also have to ignore what I and others here are saying...

Or at least you have to cast doubt on the Spirit of God we share?

Quote:

......unless this is a subtle attack on the people of God in the OT.

How can I subtley attack those whom I embrace with love as Jesus did?

Are you my adversary, Doug? If so, I wonder why? God loves me as He loves you, as He loves Muslims and all of His creations.

This miracle of love for mankind is known through the efforts of the people of God in the OT, as they are credited in both the Bible and Qur'an, by Jesus and Muhammed - Jesus through the effort of the Moses and the People of the Book, Muhammed through the efforts of Jesus and Moses and the People of the Book.

Without the efforts of the people of the OT, wouldn't we all blind to God's love for all humankind?

Casey

[doug yowell]

I noticed that you did not address any of my questions or conclusions. If the issue here was whether or not God loved Muslims, or any other other sinner (particularly me)I would have no need to post anything. My entries are an attempt to arrive at some truthful and reasonable answers as to why Islam is so violent while it's defenders claim that it's being misunderstood? And how we, as Christians, can reach them for Christ. I think that it's only natural that I and billions of others question the "Christian" nature of Islam when so many times their actions speak otherwise.And your statement "This miracle of love for mankind is known through the efforts of the people of God in the OT" only serves to add to the confusion. I've always thought that God's love for mankind was only known by HIS efforts in behalf of ALL people. What did I miss? How bout helping to clarify by responding to my previous questions?

[Guest]

Yeah!