William G. Johnson on Adventists and Muslims

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

How did we all of a sudden get so many "experts" in the field of islam posting here?

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

I've always thought that God's love for mankind was only known by HIS efforts in behalf of ALL people. What did I miss? How bout helping to clarify by responding to my previous questions?

Maybe you missed that God's conduit for revealing His efforts is humanity itself... I don't know.

We know Him because we see Him in others, and, as it is written, no one has seen God anywhere but in His creation.

Paul wrote:

"[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." [Acts 17:26-28]

Anyway...

I see you have set yourself in an adversarial pose to most anything I say.

I'm not here to offend you or fight with you over the extent of God's love or His Power through His own Creation to overcome our weaknesses in order to have His love known worldwide.

I would not be here without people like you taking up their crosses to follow Jesus, and I do appreciate your efforts as well.

Please forgive my intrusion...

Casey

[doug yowell]

Quote:

I've always thought that God's love for mankind was only known by HIS efforts in behalf of ALL people. What did I miss? How bout helping to clarify by responding to my previous questions?

Maybe you missed that God's conduit for revealing His efforts is humanity itself... I don't know.

We know Him because we see Him in others, and, as it is written, no one has seen God anywhere but in His creation.

Paul wrote:

"[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." [Acts 17:26-28]

Anyway...

I see you have set yourself in an adversarial pose to most anything I say.

I'm not here to offend you or fight with you over the extent of God's love or His Power through His own Creation to overcome our weaknesses in order to have His love known worldwide.

I would not be here without people like you taking up their crosses to follow Jesus, and I do appreciate your efforts as well.

Please forgive my intrusion...

Casey

I don't mind intrusions, Casey. I just don't follow people who talk around me. I try to understand how to decipher what is meant by asking questions and usually get hazy generalities or a motive analysis in return. Noting the similarities between Islam and Christianity is one thing. Equating the validity of both requires a lot more clarity.Resolving the paradox between what Islam teaches and what Islam practices is more complex that merely accepting the testimony of any one person.At least for someone as slooooooow as me.

[John317]

As someone who loves and wants to help Muslims understand and come to a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, I find myself in conflict with what I believe about Islam and my desire not to say anything that might increase problems between Muslims and non-Muslims. On the one hand, I want to express my own understanding of what the Koran says and teaches, but on the other, I know that my words could be used in a way that may drive a greater wedge between Christians and Muslims.

I feel the same way about Catholics because almost all of my in-laws are wonderful people who happen to be Roman Catholic, so when I write about the false doctrines of Catholicism, I have to make sure it's understood clearly that I'm not attacking individual Catholics. The same applies to Muslims, and in fact, all religions. Our study of Catholicism and Islam should never be for the purpose of stirring up bitterness or hatred against any people but only in order to see the truth about the teachings of those religions.

Some verses in the Qur'an illustrating Jihad:

Surah 9: 73: "O Prophet, strive hard [jahidi, or jahada] against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be firm against them. And their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Surah 9: 14: "Fight them; Allah will chastise them at your hands and bring them to disgrace [or: cover them with shame], and assist you against them and relieve [or: heal] the hearts of a believing people."

Surah 47: 4-7: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks [or: strike off their heads]; then, when you have overcome them, make them prisoners, and afterwards set them free as a favor or for ransom till the war lay down its burdens. And if Allah please, He would certainly exact retribution from them [or: He could have punished them Himself], but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. And make them enter the Garden, which He has made known to them. O you who believe, if you help Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet."

Surah 4: 76: "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the devil. So fight against the friends of the devil [or: fight the allies of Satan]; surely the struggle of the devil is ever weak."

In the Hadith, a collection of the sayings of Muhammad and considered the second-most important book in Islam, there are the following verses related to jihad:

"Allah's apostle said, 'Know that paradise is under the shades of swords.'" (Hadith 4: 44)

"Allah's apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," and whoever says, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," his life and property will be saved by men'" (Hadith 4: 125)

"It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [and free them with rarnson] until he has made a great slaughter [among his enemies] in the land" (Hadith 4: 161).

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him" (Hadith 9: 45).

[doug yowell]

That's kinda what I am trying to get at,John,only I think you said it better.In the case of Islam, if these verses were taken literally wouldn't that be reason to act accordingly? And if they have been twisted and understood by some in error whose responsibility is it to bring the heretics into line? Then we also run the risk of compromising the essential teachings of our own Christian beliefs in order to gain the favor of those we are attempting to reach. "Wise as serpents and harmless as doves." That's a safe goal in my opinion.

[CaseyButler]

Again, to understand we have to imagine the ways of the time, not judge from where we are today.

Here in the West we have had the benefit of nearly 2000 years of the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. We have resisted these teachings (largely by hollowly claiming before sinners that Jesus taught in mysteries we can't understand) in favor of the varying societies based on the accumulation of wealth that we are born into and raised by.

Nevertheless the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' other teachings have slowly not only changed our societies, but also our personal expections of government and our abilities to understand others by honestly examining ourselves... and our national and religious histories.

Below are only few examples of the violent teachings of the Bible before Jesus...

While they seem harsh to us today, remember Moses was leading a tribal people in primitive times, largely uneducated and still worhipping idols.

Quote:

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity (her). [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]

Quote:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and (that), when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son (is) stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; (he is) a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. [Deuteronomy 21:18-21]

Quote:

If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that (the judges) may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

And it shall be, if the wicked man (be) worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.

Forty stripes he may give him, (and) not exceed: lest, (if) he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. [Deuteronomy 25:1-3]

Quote:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons (shall be) for the LORD by thy estimation.

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

And if it (be) a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

And if (it be) from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if (it be) from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation (shall be) three shekels of silver.

And if (it be) from sixty years old and above; if (it be) a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. [Leviticus 27:1-7]

This one, of course, we all recognize:

Quote:

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; {for he that is hanged (is) accursed of God;} that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee (for) an inheritance. [Deuteronomy 21:22-23]

One of the prophets wrote something about our own ways being worked upon us, so that we could see the folly of them.

I guess the difficult part is the acknowledgment that they are our ways too, while withholding that famous first stone.

Casey

[doug yowell]

My point,exactly.