The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Niel D

Please note, "Take vengeance on the Midianites"...The question is what did God mean by 'vengeance'...Would I be a bit obtuse in saying that God didn't mean killing and rapeing ect. Couldn't "vengence" also be interpreted as doing kindness? In proverbs, if you do kindness to your enemy, it is as if you poured out hot coals upon his head...Is that not the vengence that God would want? Instead, Moses took the meaning differently and instigated the killing/rapeing...He interpreted God's word according to his own customs and not God's.

It sounded good, but then I wondered...God can see well into the future, wouldn't He explain it a bit clearer to Moses? Or is the Hebrew language too small to say "Hey go be really nice to these people!"

Please explain...Why would God need to look into the future? What does that have to do with God being a Person of good character? I don't understand where you are coming from here....

Communications takes on many different forms between two individuals. Not only what is said, but HOW it is said takes on just as important meaning. God's problem is that He doesn't use twitter, facebook, email NOR voice to communicate. and that applys to the bible as well. He uses "visions" and maybe that still small voice behind the ear.

So, the question is does He use words or concepts as He communicates? Or a combo of the two? Or is there another way to communicate?

Just a few of popourri thoughts floating around on the communication medium known as "THE INTERNET NET NET net net".....[anyone notice a deep ringing voice as I pasted the words 'the internet' in thier head?]

[SivartM]

But... God is infinitely powerful. Shouldn't He be capable of clearly communicating His specific intentions? At least if He actually wants us to do something?

[Neil D]

Your god has no accountability and is able to do anything without being questioned. That is a dangerous belief.

I would agree with a non-Christian God....

But I disagree that the Christian God has no accountability. The concept of "taste and see that the Lord is good" from Psalms demands an evaluation of God. It also holds Him accountable for His actions...one that Satan likes to embarrase God by, according to EGW.

The Lord is to be judged by HIS Law of the 10 commandments and we judge Him....

We are willing to here YOUR evidence, provided that you have it unbiased, truthful, and honest...So far, according to my understanding of what you have presented, your's is not unbiased, truthful nor honest....Instead, it is rather an exaggeration of someone else's interpretation, who has not the clear understanding of God as we do...Take your accusations of God from EGW, and let's listen to them...

[Neil D]

But... God is infinitely powerful. Shouldn't He be capable of clearly communicating His specific intentions? At least if He actually wants us to do something?

Not necessarily...

Isaiah says that our sins have separated us from Him. The general view is that God's method of communication is hampered by our understanding, our culture, and our past history. If God were to communicate directly, we would be destroyed....It's the ol' "holy God, sinful man" thingy....

[SivartM]

But couldn't He find some way to communicate clearly?

At least clearly enough to make the difference between mass murder and random acts of kindness?

[karl]

But couldn't He find some way to communicate clearly?

At least clearly enough to make the difference between mass murder and random acts of kindness?

Are you saying that you can't tell the difference between random acts of kindness and mass murder from what God has communicated to you????

[SivartM]

No, that's what Neil said about Israel. And I'm just asking why God won't communicate clearly.

[karl]

No, that's what Neil said about Israel. And I'm just asking why God won't communicate clearly.

"Won't" in the present tense?

[karl]

If God really did order those things done, then Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot have nothing on Him. If he did not order them done, then there are very serious questions to be answered about the way we interpret the Bible.

Not even in the same category.

Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were not executing God's judgment on people groups which had steadfastly turned their backs on God's entreaties for hundreds of years.

Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin were simply murdering people who were in the way of their political ambitions. And, in the cases of Pol Pot and Stalin, these atrocities were done under the aegis of atheism. Hitler, although appealing to Christianity, did so only for political purposes. He had no religious practice as an adult.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Your god has no accountability and is able to do anything without being questioned. That is a dangerous belief.

But I disagree that the Christian God has no accountability. The concept of "taste and see that the Lord is good" from Psalms demands an evaluation of God. It also holds Him accountable for His actions...one that Satan likes to embarrase God by, according to EGW.

The Lord is to be judged by HIS Law of the 10 commandments and we judge Him....

[Woody]

If God made a mistake ... He could always repent:

“And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” -Exodus 32:14

[Aliensanctuary]

It may have been difficult for some of the men of Israel to kill the women and children who just happened to be living in the land the people of Israel were supposed to conquer.

Post resurrection, these unfortunate people, I believe, will have the opportunity to hear the 3 Angels' Messages and the Testimony of the 2 Witnesses, then make an informed choice. For some, this is a time for forgiveness of all wrongs, and a time for enemies to become friends to the death. We shouldn't be surprised if pagans and atheists and mass murderers, like some of those mentioned in the previous post, listen to the LORD and repent. For those who give their allegiance to the LORD, their life records, like ours, will ultimately be wiped clean of all of the atrocities that have been committed, whether in the name of the LORD or not.

[SivartM]

If God made a mistake ... He could always repent:

“And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” -Exodus 32:14

God thinks evil things?

[Woody]

The Word says what the Word says .... :)

[SivartM]

But what does The Message say?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Your god has no accountability and is able to do anything without being questioned. That is a dangerous belief.

I consider it FAR more dangerous for humans to have no accountability to God than for God to have no accountability to humans.

Even if we didn't want to have accountability, humans have accountability to each other and the civil governments they live under.

I find no better behavior among those who claim to be accountable to god than those that don't. In fact it can be demonstrated that those who don't actually are better citizens as a whole than those who claim accountability to god.

In the case of the Israelites I would say that the communities of Jains in India were far more moral than god's chosen people. It would appear to me that a belief in the OT god made the chosen people act in evil ways.

[Lutz13]

Please explain...Why would God need to look into the future? What does that have to do with God being a Person of good character? I don't understand where you are coming from here....

What I was trying to say was. God who sees all would be able to know if He wasn't clear enough and would do all to prevent a mistake. The problem is He didn't. It also says that God spoke to Moses face to face as a friend.

[Lutz13]

Isaiah says that our sins have separated us from Him. The general view is that God's method of communication is hampered by our understanding, our culture, and our past history. If God were to communicate directly, we would be destroyed....It's the ol' "holy God, sinful man" thingy....

There were quite a few people who saw God and they thought they would die, but they didn't. Isaiah was one of them. He thought he was done for.

[LifeHiscost]

How are you going to tell me that these are loving actions?

It seems unavoidable that one couldn't see love as being carried to its' ultimate destination, in a land of free choice for all, when by patience we perceive much happens in the way of seeming injustice in order to enable the worst of criminals their right to that free choice, not just to the ones who see themselves righteous.

One thing, that I'm aware of, as more important in God's eyes than the salvation of a soul, is the right of every individual to choose themselves the master he/she will serve. Often, especially in exceptional circumstances, our Father stands in between the natural bent toward evil in mens' minds, in order to protect His chosen. However this is not always the case, a direct result of all falling short of the glory of God.

"Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! " Luke 17:2 NKJV

The one who trusts in God, rather than finding fault with others, will ask their Father for endurance until they are enlightened enough to recognize why they themselves are implicated in the inexplicable.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV

There is an enemy of souls in this world whose primary purpose is to seduce people into believing that the Creator is responsible for all the evil perpetrated, and the fact that many have been convinced there are those who will burn in fire throughout eternity, at the behest of the God of the universe, is proof enough of his success.

"Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty..." Exodus 34:5-7 NKJV

Regards!

[Bravus]

What I'm mainly hearing here is the Nixon Defense: "if the President does it, it's not illegal". It was wrong for him and it's wrong for God.

It begs the question: how can someone be lawgiver, judge and executioner for a law that he himself continually flouts?

Leave aside Numbers 31, if you want to spin completely countertextual fantasies about how they would take these virgins 'for yourselves' (NOT 'for their sake') and then show them a nice nonsexual time. There are plenty of other OT examples of the Israelites being told to take wives by force from surrounding tribes. Under any sensible definition of consent, that's God-ordered rape.

The relevant moral standards, by the way, are not those of the surrounding tribes, or of the Israelites as they were at the time, but of the Ten Commandments and of Jesus' revision and extension of the Commandments in Matthew 5. The decisions (purportedly) were not being made by iron age humans, but by Almighty God, and he must be held up to at least his own moral standards.

[Bravus]

And even if you leave aside the rape issue entirely - just pop it in the too-hard basket - there's still the issue of slavery. I already quoted a text, but here it is again:

Quote:

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)

Some of you even seem to believe in 'God made it, God can break it' in relation to death of human beings. But God not only allowed and condoned slavery, he commanded it. There are other texts about how, if you beat your slave to death you should pay a fine, but if he hung on for a couple of days before dying then it was OK because he was your property to do with as you wished.

I really thought and hoped that there would be good answers to these questions, but I'm not seeing them here. And while I usually like what LHC posts, he has several times insinuated that it's evidence of impiety and corruption to even raise the questions.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

How are you going to tell me that these are loving actions?

One thing, that I'm aware of, as more important in God's eyes than the salvation of a soul, is the right of every individual to choose themselves the master he/she will serve.

[Neil D]

But... God is infinitely powerful. Shouldn't He be capable of clearly communicating His specific intentions? At least if He actually wants us to do something?

Why should we listen when we "know" what He wants?

If we are under some misguided understanding as to what type of "vengeance" God really wants, why should we listen? If when God uses the word "vengeance", He means for us to do good works toward our enemy, but our culture defines "vengeance" as doing something bad, why should we listen to God when we have a green light to do what we understand and desire to do?

God says that His ways are not our ways. And as children of God, we try to understand and imitate Him. That is what the NT is about, and the OT was a gross growing process in understanding God and His ways. According to the bible, God never told the Hebrews to rape the women...but the leaders did....

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But... God is infinitely powerful. Shouldn't He be capable of clearly communicating His specific intentions? At least if He actually wants us to do something?

Why should we listen when we "know" what He wants?

If we are under some misguided understanding as to what type of "vengeance" God really wants, why should we listen? If when God uses the word "vengeance", He means for us to do good works toward our enemy, but our culture defines "vengeance" as doing something bad, why should we listen to God when we have a green light to do what we understand and desire to do?

God says that His ways are not our ways. And as children of God, we try to understand and imitate Him. That is what the NT is about, and the OT was a gross growing process in understanding God and His ways. According to the bible, God never told the Hebrews to rape the women...but the leaders did....

But God meets us where we are at. Don't you think He can read the heart and know that we may be off a bit? Wouldn't He then use another word?

Read the book of Numbers, this isn't a simple misunderstanding of what God said. God clearly lashes out at the crying child. How are we to reconcile this? It isn't a simple spanking, it is a "shut up and follow me!!!".

I'm sure there is a logical explanation for it, God knows and maybe He wants me to keep searching harder so that I may learn something. What I do know is that God really really wanted to keep them from the outside nations who sacrificed children to idols and did such things like having sex with animals.

[Neil D]

Really, well the god of the OT lies, kills innocent children, and is just plain cruel. He lied to Adam and Eve about the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil. They didn't die from eating the fruit. They died because they were thrown out of the garden. The snake was telling the truth.