The most abusive Christian phrase ...

[cardw]

Quote:

cardw: What would be relevant is to demonstrate why teaching fear is helpful.

I susppose he could have said, "I'm not going to be motivated by fear, so I'll ignore the doctor." The doctor was trying to help him avoid pain and suffering and death, but this man was determined to ignore the doctor and do what he wanted. At what a cost!

[LifeHiscost]

So if fear is a sure sign of pursuing a trail leading away from the Master, why doesn't it indicate the same with the believer?

It is the same if one does not turn those fears over to the only One Who knows how to eliminate them.

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Ephesians 6:12 NKJV

The believer, having fear, will have His fears allayed as he experiences life with Jesus. Plus the promise that if the believer continues to follow the Master, his own character will become so knit to the Lord, he will experience the Divine power that delivers from all that initiates fear.

Salvation is an instantaneous reality once one is yoked to Jesus.

However the essence of the kingdom of God within you is a progressive journey.

"But the path of the just is like the shining light, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day." Proverbs 4:18 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6 NKJV

There is no indication from the Word, the believer will be without sin, however the constant union with Christ gives constant renewal when the believer is willing to admit the need. And He/she is constantly drawn to that conclusion by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 NKJV

JOY!!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So if fear is a sure sign of pursuing a trail leading away from the Master, why doesn't it indicate the same with the believer?

Because the believer, having fear, will have His fears allayed as he experiences life with Jesus.

Well if the believer didn't believe that god was going to kill him if he didn't experience life with Jesus he wouldn't have fear in the first place.

The unbeliever has no fear of a punishing god. The unbeliever simply has to face the same fears that everyone faces on this planet. There are plenty of reasons to live a good life without a threat of punishment.

What you describe is not something I saw as a reality even though I was a believer for a good part of my life. And this included a sincere dedication to serving others, reading the bible, prayer, and trying to instruct others in how to be saved.

When something doesn't deliver on its promises I call that a false claim. And when I observe in yours and many other's dialog a reactionary and defensive position, I question your claims of belief. It's not something I would expect from someone who has little to fear.

I sense an attitude of us and them and them (being me) is often characterized as speaking for the Devil. I admit that my view of the world was very similar because that is what I was taught as truth for most of my life. I don't experience people who are non-believers as being evil. It's actually quite the opposite.

Now when I stopped believing there was a period of time where I experienced fear and relief at the same time. It took me some time to sort it out, but it is very possible to live life without fear and with a considerable amount of joy without believing in Jesus. The added bonus is that I don't have to decode the bible to figure out what god is trying to say to me and I don't have to worry if I am dedicated enough to be saved. That consumes a considerable amount of life energy.

This is obviously not your intent, but the more I dialog with the most dedicated of Christian believers the less I am convinced that it's true.

[LifeHiscost]

This is obviously not your intent, but the more I dialog with the most dedicated of Christian believers the less I am convinced that it's true.

I can only suggest what I have come to find as Truth.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16 NKJV

God will be just as faithful to you as He is to anyone else.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."2 Timothy 2:13 NKJV

If you have joy, that in itself reveals God's eternal intent for you, since joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Whether that intent is fulfilled will be determined by your choice to accept what He has to offer.

Joy!!

[pindoc]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Maybe there is such a thing as too much faith...

Amen Tom. You've hit the nail on the head. Exactly. And it is a problem with many Christians ... not just SDAs.

There's a difference b/w faith and assuming that being faithful and having faith means bad things won't happen to us. The assuming part is donkey like.

[pindoc]

" you didn't have enough faith."

I was told this when I had depression....

And I'm getting tired of hearing it.

Anyone else?

Amen.

I actually know a masters-level counselor who said this at a small after-church dinner gathering at someone's apartment:

"If people had enough faith, there would be no such thing as mental illness."

God, what do I do? People here trust her, they'll believe her. They might really hurt someone with this information someday - or themselves. ?

I looked at her and in a totally neutral tone, definitely inspired and not innate, asked, "What about schizophrenia?"

"Why did you bring that up?" she replied, with a taut frown.

"You said mental illness, I just brought up an example."

She already had her purse in her arms. Jaw clenched and face still taut, she did not say another word till she left. She even gave me a ride home and did not speak during most of the short ride.

Sadly, ignorantly, she believed what she said. Illness of all kinds are part of this world. Mental and emotional conditions are some of the worse. With these, Satan can easily use our own minds against us. One problem is, no illness is based solely in the mind. I said, there is no kind of illness that is just mental or emotional in origin. That includes mental and emotional illness. Every kind of illness occurs in our body, mind and spirit.

To assume that depression or any other condition would not exist if we have enough faith is to deny how we are designed. Thoughts and feelings are not even based only in the mind. Ever hear of serotonin? It plays a major in mood and affect. Many anti-depressant medications either promote serotonin's production or inhibit it's breakdown. Most serotonin is produced and is present in the abdomen. Take that as just one example of our complexity.

I am not sure what her excuse was for being so dense. Maybe her problem is having a liberal arts degree and lacking any basic sciences. Maybe her problem is just that she is so critical of others. Let me count the times she spent 20 to 30 minutes in a tirade, e.g., "You can't possibly go to heaven if you think that way? Doesn't that bother you a lot?" At least once it progressed to the point where she stomped out of the room in disgust. We were at her house.

[karl]

The unbeliever has no fear of a punishing god. The unbeliever simply has to face the same fears that everyone faces on this planet. There are plenty of reasons to live a good life without a threat of punishment......

Now when I stopped believing there was a period of time where I experienced fear and relief at the same time. It took me some time to sort it out, but it is very possible to live life without fear and with a considerable amount of joy without believing in Jesus.

It seems to me you do not believe in an afterlife because you think that the idea is a naive wish-fulfillment in the face of the fear of death.

But disbelief in an afterlife could have the same intellectual status. It could be the hopeful wish that there might be no accountability to anyone after we die, and the hope that there is no intrusive authority in our lives before that time.

Tsunamis, terrible diseases, agonizing cancers, massive earthquakes, devastating tornados, killer hurricanes, awful suffering, and death itself are very real. Some take this as proof that God does not exist. Some take it as proof that He does - that life has survived all this.

God does not force Himself on us. He let's us decide whether we want Him. But He allows us plenty of evidence regarding Himself. I suspect that you have been exposed to a false god, because the biggest argument FOR God is genuine love. There is no random explanation for it. Why does it exist?

Natural selection can account for lust, but not love.

And then there's information, which cannot exist without pre-existing intelligence.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The unbeliever has no fear of a punishing god. The unbeliever simply has to face the same fears that everyone faces on this planet. There are plenty of reasons to live a good life without a threat of punishment......

Now when I stopped believing there was a period of time where I experienced fear and relief at the same time. It took me some time to sort it out, but it is very possible to live life without fear and with a considerable amount of joy without believing in Jesus.

It seems to me you do not believe in an afterlife because you think that the idea is a naive wish-fulfillment in the face of the fear of death.

[cardw]

Quote:

The added bonus is that I don't have to decode the bible to figure out what god is trying to say to me and I don't have to worry if I am dedicated enough to be saved.

And there are a vast number of people who believe in the Christ and God of the Bible who feel the same way! No believer should ever 'worry' if they are Christian enough to be saved.

[John317]

Quote:

karl: But disbelief in an afterlife could have the same intellectual status. It could be the hopeful wish that there might be no accountability to anyone after we die, and the hope that there is no intrusive authority in our lives before that time.

Quote:

cardw: This is a little frustrating because I have to keep defining agnosticism for you. The key meaning here is "not knowing." So I neither have a belief or disbelief in an afterlife. I have no way of knowing, at this time, if there is one, so I make no claim either way.

But don't you think that not to believe in an after-life makes it awfully difficult to be prepared for one? If one does not believe in it, one will live as if it does not exist, so for all practical purposes, there's no difference between a-gnosia [ignorance; not-know] and a-theotees [no divinity]. If I say I don't know whether a man will come to my door and offer me a million dollors, and another person says they know for sure such a man can never possibly come-- I believe you will find that in a short time we will both be living the same way, as if no such man does exist.

In Greek, the word agnosia is translated "ignorance." Agnosticism, then, is simply the acknowledgment that one is ignorant about the existence or non-existence of any god/God, whereas atheism claims to know for a fact that no such god/God exists.

[karl]

But don't you think that not to believe in an after-life makes it awfully difficult to be prepared for one?

Pascal's Wager seems particularly apropos here (although Bravus is not impressed with it.)

Rich, have you become your own god? By deciding what God can or cannot be, you rise above Him in your own mind.

[olger]

Quote:

God wants us to do right so that He can bless us.

Praise God He continues to bless me even when I do wrong.

Somebody missed something somewhere...

While it is true that rain falls on the just and the unjust, disobedience is not the goal of the Spirit-filled believer. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace" (Romans 8:5-6).

"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live" (Ezekiel 18:21).

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (The Last Book, v. 14-15).

"For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it" (Proverbs 2: 21-22).

Go and do as He has done,

[cardw]

Quote:

cardw: This is a little frustrating because I have to keep defining agnosticism for you. The key meaning here is "not knowing." So I neither have a belief or disbelief in an afterlife. I have no way of knowing, at this time, if there is one, so I make no claim either way.

But don't you think that not to believe in an after-life makes it awfully difficult to be prepared for one? If one does not believe in it, one will live as if it does not exist, so for all practical purposes, there's no difference between a-gnosia [ignorance; not-know] and a-theotees [no divinity]. If I say I don't know whether a man will come to my door and offer me a million dollors, and another person says they know for sure such a man can never possibly come-- I believe you will find that in a short time we will both be living the same way, as if no such man does exist.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

But don't you think that not to believe in an after-life makes it awfully difficult to be prepared for one?

Pascal's Wager seems particularly apropos here (although Bravus is not impressed with it.)

Rich, have you become your own god? By deciding what God can or cannot be, you rise above Him in your own mind.

Well even you decide what god cannot be because I assume that you don't believe in Zeus. As far as what god should be, I would expect that god to at least follow its own laws and rise above a petty punishment and reward system.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Rich, have you become your own god? By deciding what God can or cannot be, you rise above Him in your own mind.

Well even you decide what god cannot be because I assume that you don't believe in Zeus. As far as what god should be, I would expect that god to at least follow its own laws and rise above a petty punishment and reward system.

No, I do not decide what God can or cannot be. I let God tell me about Himself.

I have a couple of questions for you, Rich.

1) Are you saying that you do not believe in punishment and reward?

2) Do you believe you can know anything about God?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: karl

Rich, have you become your own god? By deciding what God can or cannot be, you rise above Him in your own mind.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well even you decide what god cannot be because I assume that you don't believe in Zeus. As far as what god should be, I would expect that god to at least follow its own laws and rise above a petty punishment and reward system.

No, I do not decide what God can or cannot be. I let God tell me about Himself.

[cardw]

I thought this was an appropriate image for many of these discussions. The title of the image is

Opposing Points of View

[karl]

So you are saying that Zeus is an accurate picture of god?

I think it would be obvious that if I am not aware of a god then there would be no one to do the punishment. I observe a cause and effect world, but I certainly am not aware of any punishing going on.

Again, it would seem obvious that if I am unaware of any god, I would be unaware of anything about any god.

1) Zeus has not told me anything about himself.

2) Do you believe in reward and punishment at all? Do you believe in reward and punishment, say, in the classroom? When you say there is no one to do the punishing, are you saying that you KNOW there is no God Who punishes? If you know this, how do you know it?

3) Do you believe it is POSSIBLE to know anything about God? (I can't discuss this unless I know where your stopping point is.)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So you are saying that Zeus is an accurate picture of god?

1) Zeus has not told me anything about himself.

[karl]

So you an agnostic when it comes to Zeus?

When I disciplined my children I did it in the context of cause and effect because generally if something is wrong it carries it's own effect.

This is an irrelevant question because you have to establish that god exists before you can even know anything about god.

This is like asking me if I can know anything about the Easter Bunny.

I am aware of the stories of Greek gods. I'm not impressed.

So are you OK with reward and punishment if it is done the way you want it done?

Regarding the existence of God: Complete agnosticism reduces to the self-destructing assertion that "one knows enough about God to affirm that nothing can be known about God." We cannot assume knowledge of God in order to deny knowledge of God.

You can know something about the easter bunny. The question is whether this knowledge is meaningful to you and in what way.

[aldona]

Quote:

I actually know a masters-level counselor who said this at a small after-church dinner gathering at someone's apartment:

"If people had enough faith, there would be no such thing as mental illness."

God, what do I do? People here trust her, they'll believe her. They might really hurt someone with this information someday - or themselves. ?

I looked at her and in a totally neutral tone, definitely inspired and not innate, asked, "What about schizophrenia?"

"Why did you bring that up?" she replied, with a taut frown.

"You said mental illness, I just brought up an example."

She already had her purse in her arms. Jaw clenched and face still taut, she did not say another word till she left. She even gave me a ride home and did not speak during most of the short ride.

I'm actually surprised that the "schizophrenia" example threw her.

I have had countless people say to me that "schizophrenia" is really demon possession. When I ask them why it responds so dramatically to medication, the answer was that the demons continue to deceive by "pretending" to back off and make the person appear to be cured.

Unfortunately the world of religion is full of these self-styled "psychologists", and they make it difficult (if not impossible) for those with genuine mental illness to get help.

aldona

[Bravus]

Leave Zeus specifically aside, though, and think about the hundreds of thousands (at least) of various gods believed in by various groups of humans throughout history. Christians are atheists of *all* of them, yet theists of one specific god.

As someone has said, the difference is of degree, not kind, and it's small: believing in 1/100,000th of all possible gods versus 0/100,000ths is within the rounding error. This is my problem with Pascal's Wager: it looks at a probability system with a 0 or 1 probability for the Christian God, but given the plethora of other possible outcomes, that's not valid probability reasoning.

The question of 'what are the warrants for *this* god' is a slightly different one from 'what are the warrants for *a* god (versus no gods at all)', and also needs to be addressed.

And I'm afraid 'the Bible tells me so' by itself doesn't cut it, since a large proportion of the other gods have their own scriptures. You have to choose a god prior to deciding to use that god's scriptures as evidence.

(not even gonna bother with disclaimers - if people don't get what I'm about by now it won't help anyway)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So you're an agnostic when it comes to Zeus?

Originally Posted By: karl

I am aware of the stories of Greek gods. I'm not impressed.

[John317]

Quote:

karl:

Pascal's Wager seems particularly apropos here (although Bravus is not impressed with it.)

I think Pascal's Wager is one thing that should be seriously considered. It is not everything but it is one of them.

For me it is somewhat similar to a poor man being told to pick which hand has a million dollars in it, and the man doesn't believe either hand holds the money, so he refuses to choose and simply walks away. He pretty much guarantees that he won't gain anything. The person who chooses at least can't lose anything, and there's a chance that he will gain by it. However, by refusing to choose-- like the agnostic-- he is affectively rejecting the offer, and thus for all intents and purposes, he's making a negative choice, and cuts himself off without any chance of gain at all.

[LifeHiscost]

As far as what god should be, I would expect that god to at least follow its own laws and rise above a petty punishment and reward system.

And what makes you think a created being should be so audacious as to say to the Creator, "This that you have done is wrong! Now, here's what you should have done."?

Some people believe that's about the place Job was when he questioned God re: his misfortunes. Just this morning I heard the simple understanding of God's answer to be, "I did what I did because I'm smarter than you."

It appears obvious you don't believe that if there is a God, He's smarter than you. Is that true?

And whatever your answer, it would seem to me to be wise to remember the greatest evidence of a Creator is the human being walking around with about (just guessing) 30 billion individual parts that must work perfectly together in order to maintain life, most apparently autonomically.

Regards!